When will there be an 1/8th scale 4 stroke Motor????
 

Hi folks. I was wondering.. Why hasn't any of the MFGs created a 4 stroke nitro engine that can compete bottom end wise with the electric motors?

This could be a new dawn for Nitro.

In the Motocross industry, 2 strokes were king, and now 4 strokes are superior.

Can this happen in the R/C car :D:Dindustry??

Imagine that low end 4 stroke grunt sound..

BBBRRRRRRRRUPP :weird:
:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

There is 2 stroke gas in 1/5th scale. The problem with 4 stroke is you need a way to introduce oil into the engine using external means. With 2 stroke the oil is mixed in the fuel, which is basically what we run now with nitro. To go 4 stroke you'd need an oil pump and someplace to store the oil until its used, and that means alot of extra weight. I don't think 4 stroke will be that mirco sized anytime soon, but i could see other alternatives to nitro fuels in the future. Stuff like bio deisel might be adaptable and produce good hp and low end torque.

http://www.thumprc.com/

He is currently working on an 1/8 application.

I like this topic.

I do think 4stroke will be around in the near future, it will pick up slowly and of course there will be many flaws at first.

I raced mx in the era where 4stroke took over the 125 and 250. At first there were only a few guys who ran them locally and they were quite a bit heavier but they had more torque, no oil to mix with gas, etc. The downfall was that if they stalled, they were a pain in the rear to start up again! The major companies took a few years to conquer it and BAM 4stroke took over the mx world pretty darn fast. (now 2 stroke is almost non existant in the 250 and 450 class)

Will this happen to RC? I can see where people would say yes and I can see where they'd say no. But yes I do think there will be a competitive 4-stroke motor out within a few years

OS 26?

There are Many 4 stroke glow engines. Even a few under the .40 mark.

I work in the lawncare industry and over the last few years there has been a trend in what they call 4mix engines being used in handheld equipment (blowers whips). While you still need to mix oil in your fuel they are pretty much a 4 stroke design with a 4 stroke power curve, so it is possible to have one without a oil pump and related items. From what i've read and heard they are still working the bugs out of them. Regarding rc I don't see it being feasible and cost effective. I have been wrong before though.

4stroke 8T
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=MXk1...eature=related

There are a few more vids on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igEw0...eature=related

Sound like a 4 stroke MX bike....lol

Seemed pretty heavy to me. I dunno maybe eventually we'll move that way, i'm not ready to give up my nitro engines just yet though and expecially considering the price they are asking for a conversion + engine.

What the nitro big blocks dont have enough torque or speed?:weird:

I think we would be giving up a bunch of high end just for a little gain in the low end with the addition of more weight, moving parts and potential failures.

Until I see one smoke an average nitro of comparable displacement (probably not in my lifetime) I wont even waste my time hoping.

Blue smoke and the sweet aroma of Nitro...Yep thats where its at! breeth deeply Daniel son.:sneaky:

LOL i hear ya. When i watched that video i was thinking wow that sounds cool, but it seemed to handle like a tank. Had decent low end expecially for the gearing he was running, but i think he was running it at such a high gear ratio to make up for the loss of top end. Going down the straight i was not impressed, and going over jumps i was not impressed, but off the line and out of corners it did seem to be more powerful. I don't think that engine would do much on most race tracks but its an interesting development regardless.

Would be a great motor for a pulling truck.

4 stroke Truggy
 

I saw that 4 stroke video.

Potential is there. I wonder what type of top end it has.

I'd like to see what the inside of that truggy looks like. Did he have to shoe

horn the engine in the truggy or what.

Also, how is the weight distribution.


I am sure, there will be a time when Just like Motocross, the 4 strokes will be

beating the 2 strokes. The technology and the want just isn't there yet.

When someone creates this type of engine, I think e-buggies and truggies

will be given a run for their money.

A mass exit from the E-world will happen and back to nitro will happen once

people will be able to have the same abilities of electric.

:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky: (Monster Torque):sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

:deathstar:deathstar:deathstar:deathstar:deathstar :deathstar:deathstar:deathstar:deathstar:deathstar

Yeah, 4-strokes work in MX because they're mated to a 5/6 speed gearbox. I'm not sure how innovators are going to conquer the weight and single speed diff setups that us off-road racers use.

It's just a matter of time. It'll be fun to watch the technology evolve and then watch business models embrace it. Stay tuned! I can see this being practically implemented on the on-road side of racing way before the off-road side, mostly because of the 2-speed trannys. Off-road bashers will hop on the train first. Fun stuff :)

4 stroke in 1/8th scale
 

Well, I think there are such things like a 2/3 speed gear box. I know more stuff to worry about.

Well, that being said, I do know the CRF 450 for what it's worth, can wind pretty high in RPM. I would say possibly as much as a 2 stroke can.

That being said, I would think this could work.

Not to mention, since all the power is down low, you can gear up to accomodate the loss of RPM on the top end I would think.

Hmm.

Displacement, displacement, displacement.

So, I guess, there would have to be a .42 for buggies and a .56 for Truggies??

Double the size like in motocross??
:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

i like the sound of that just like a 4 stroke mx

for under 200 bucks it might be worth playing with but I still like the sound and smell of the nitro more. does sound pretty cool. wonder what kind of exhaust they are running?http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...e-engines.html

ok, so it runs on nitro too. Trying to talk myself out of this but its getting harder!:rolleyes: i have a spare old MBX5T sitting around that would make a good test bed.:nod::nod:
Damn thing weighs almost a pound!

If nothing else it would get tons of attention at the track:D

Wow those 4-Strokes sound so sick. I would love to see them get into off-road racing, but it will take a while to do.

Now on the bad side, imagine a newb trying to disassemble and reassemble their engines. :eek::eek::eek:

+ YouTube Video

No tuned pipes are needed for 4-strokes. A simple silencer would do.

I was thinking more a straight pipe out the side or back:lol:

You'll need some sort of baffle. straight pipe won't let it breathe.

Advantage to a 4stroke nitro is TORQUE. They don't spin as fast, but they pull stumps.

There is a reason the air guys use the smaller 4 strokes to pull big props.

4 STROKE SUPERIOR ??? you must be dreaming!!! a 2 stroke engine has way more HP per cc. of displacement hands down given they have the same disp., thats why in MX they had to double the engine displacement in order to get any performance out of them. 250 & 450cc 4 stroke = 125 & 250cc 2 stroke. More than likely why they went to 4 stroke is some enviromentalist whack job said they were "Poluuuting" the air. Keep Al Gore and his crowd out of R/C.
Do you realize that some of the .30 monter truck nitro engines are putting out almost as much power a you average Briggs & Straton push mower.
Hell you might as well bungy cord a lexan body to your mower and go racing:lol::lol::lol:
And for those who want to hear BBRRRRRRRUUUPP!! BBRRUUUUUPP!! go to an old folks home there's plenty of that in there.

You haven't looked much at aftermarket pipes for 4-stroke MX then. Head pipe and silencer make a big difference on them too. ;)

Of course in MX 4-strokes rule. 450cc has 200cc more displacement, 250cc has twice the displacement of a 125cc REAL-STROKE bike. I guarantee you build a 450cc 2-stroke, it will hurt the Air-stroke bike. AMA ruined MX. Not the EPA like everyone tries to blame.

I have rode the new 4-stroke bikes and they pull like a tank and RPM like a 2-stroke. Another bad thing we have to deal with the 4-stroke is to have a competitive motor, the rebuilds are close to $1,500.00:mad:

I do see it coming eventually though to RC and we will all just have to see how it pans out.

It would've been a neat video if it was on a decent track and driven by a better driver. The truggy sounded good.

I've seen Damon's 4 stroke gt's in person a few times.... last weekend in fact. and they always look cool. I think the biggest advantage is the runtime. I think he said they go about 20 mins on a single tank... rediculous.

The absolute key is gearing and clutch on them. They turn a bit less RPM than .21s but that can be compensated for. As far as weight its pretty much even, a .21 with filter, clutch and pipe weighs in at around 16oz/1lb and thats what most .52 4 strokes come in at. So weight isnt an issue.

Several of us locally have banged around the idea of building a truggy mule to test with. Maybe that could be this winters project :D Always wanted to try it. 4 strokes are much more reliable and durable, they rarely need rebuilds and by running at much lower RPMs there is half the wear we normally see.

Yeah I'd buy a 4 stroke engine for an RC without a problem. The biggest advantage to the 4 strokes in MX is you can ride them lazily and still be SCREAMING fast. Put the bike in 3rd and you can either lug it or scream it and it will pull you out of whatever problem you got yourself into....so I don't really think a single speed will be a problem on an RC car in the end.

Pros:

1. Torque for days
2. Less RPMs, means less wear and tear on the engine which means longer life
3. Tuning would probably be a snap on them, but I'm guessing here
4. Way better runtime

Cons:

1. Less HP per cc
2. slightly heavier (which could also be a pro depending on your setup I suppose)
3. Harder to tear down
4. More expensive when a rebuild is needed

So those cons don't look too bad to me, but the pros certainly look enticing! The same debate went through the MX world when 4 strokes came back (they were king many many moons ago!). I always loved my 2 strokes as well, but the first time I slung a leg over a 4 stroke...I was sold. It left you with SOOO much more energy to focus on riding instead of keeping the 2 stroke "on the pipe".

So if anyone produces a Truggy 4 stroker....I'll be in line to pick one up for sure! Just my take on it.

Don't tell me you actually believe some of those over hyped HP numbers. :lol:
I always laugh when I see those 4-5hp claims.

Displacemeent
 

Well, 4 storkes need more displacement to keep up /be better than 2 strokes.

I agree they are more work to disassemble. But, currently, in the MX world, the bikes weight about the same.

As far as 4 strokes being a tank, I don't agree.

OS made a sideways mount 4 stroke in the late 90s to go in a particular onroad car. The motor was strong on the bottom end.

The engine needed a 2 or 3 speed to keep up with the 2 stroke engines, but, it had advantages the 2 strokes didn't have. Hole shot.

Yup, exactly! I was a 125 guy and nothin was better....till I got to twist a YZF 250 off the line. I jumped off, wide-eyed, thinkin..."Holy crap. Really? That's the fastest effin couch on the planet!" Too easy...

I'm thinkin it might be the same in RC if someone is thorough enough. Gear up a little everywhere (spur, pinion, f/r diff input), toughen up the driveline/clutch a little, tune suspension to handle the weight, and roll on with a smile! If the engine is built well enough it can scream between 9 and 12K rpm.

As of now 8th e-buggy is already exposing some of the torque issues in the drivelines and how torque changes suspension tuning a little. BL torque is nothing compared to what 4-stroke can do after gearing up. Interesting stuff...

Great Evil,

Just what we need, yet another motor to choose from. LOL. I know there were a few people taking some of the 4-stroke airplane motors and putting them in cars/trucks some years back. It is a sound idea, but not sure on the practical use. The current issue is the lack of RPM for a given size motor when compared to the same size Nitro motor. That is to be expected as MX has proven with the 250 vs. 450. In time I think it could work, just not sure when. The added use of a two or three speed clutch/spur gear would be a big help, though not sure if it would work well in the offroad arena as the gears are pretty exposed.

I also would like to see this, and they are less to rebuild than you think. First, they are ringed engines. So $20.00 for a new ring and the engine is rebuilt! And valve adjustments are needed, but are very simple to do. I've owned around 20 or so 4-stroke engines throught the years and prefer them in my airplanes, I've even had two 4-stroke helis. I also run all my 4-strokes on 30% heli fuel. (cool power) amazing run time to boot...

I vote yes!

How bout a Wankle?

bumping this for friend

4-stroke has real potential if it's ever properly developed. There are a few misconceptions here:

It is not true that 4-stroke is less powerful than 2-stroke of the same displacement. While that's generally true (especially in our model engines), in motorcycle racing it's no longer the case. A pro level 450cc bike makes more hp than the 500cc 2-strokes used to, same is true of the 250ccx4 vs. 250ccx2 and MotoGP. 2-stroke engines were developed to the point that they were not finding ways to make them appreciably faster from year to year. All of them are spinning more RPM than a 2-stroke will ever be capable of now because they've figured out how to prevent valve float. The main reason our model engine 4s engines don't spin fast is because it's not usable for airplanes. There is a maximum usable speed for propellers.

Lets keep the number one factor in mind of why the MX world made the switch and manufactures were forced to develop the 4 strokes... The EPA mandate that 2 strokes were to dirty to be used in the motorcycle and off-road areas. It happened to snowmobiles as well. This forced the manufactures to look at increasing the performance of the 4 strokes to where they are today. The ability and technology is there but until it is forced to be developed it will not happen...

I would dissagree that 4 cycle is cleaner.

Cleanest, most fuel effecient, lowest oil consuming snowmobile you can buy right now is the Ski Doo 600 E-Tec 2-Stroke (and Ski Doo makes the most effecient 4 stroke also)

Stock 1995 CR500 HP is 54hp, Stock CRf450 is 49hp

Now, on the track, the 450 is usually faster (it is 15 years newer in suspension, frame, tires, etc...) and has a much easier to race powerband

But, the CR500 does make more (and if modded, 70+hp on a stock bottom end, and 90+hp is available fully tricked out)

Ringed engines are cheaper....if you're only replacing rings. If you blow the valve train it becomes a nightmare to fix ;-) At least on the wallet...so that's what I was referring to....rings are dirt cheap, but valves and heads and springs and timing chains (if the model version has one?)...etc etc etc Just more moving items in there...do depending on what happens will depend on how much your wallet hurts.

MX 2 stroke rebuild was like $125 or so....which I did @ twice a season on a good year..... 4 stroker rebuild was more like $750, but only needed it every few seasons at the club level.

Catastrophic failure is WAY more on a 4 banger though ;-)