52LikesEuropean 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
09-17-2012, 03:37 PM
#2011
[QUOTE=Rick Davis;11220128]
Rick,.. what would an ex 4WD car handle like with the 4wd parts removed???......Could they be made to work with the locked rear end and a restrictor motor and 16%???
..A little better than pan???......but not so wide open like 4WD??.....
My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class.
Lon - I think you should be given full credit for getting the pan class going and keeping it moving - it's just too bad there isn't a car that people could walk into a hobby shop and buy.
This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good).
Think we should use restrictors instead - those little resistors will do too much piston damage going through the motor
Should we consider a 4wd limited class with small carb restrictors and maybe even 16% fuel ?? might it be a transition between pan and open ??
Lon - I think you should be given full credit for getting the pan class going and keeping it moving - it's just too bad there isn't a car that people could walk into a hobby shop and buy.
This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good).
Think we should use restrictors instead - those little resistors will do too much piston damage going through the motor
Should we consider a 4wd limited class with small carb restrictors and maybe even 16% fuel ?? might it be a transition between pan and open ??
..A little better than pan???......but not so wide open like 4WD??.....
09-17-2012, 05:18 PM
#2012
Hm
[QUOTE=Taylorm;11221571]
I see problems with that. First, you've still got an inherently weak setup, still no good for newbies. Second, you've now got a straight axle (solid axle for you other types) which means the car doesn't turn too well. Third, Lon was ruling something like that out earlier in the year, I believe the argument was even with everything locked out, there's still too much play and what not. I had that same idea regarding my Super Eagle and the collective opinion was no way in hell.
My two cents worth...sell what you have and either buy one of my cheapies or build a pan or wait till we get ours built and duplicate it.
The one place of merit I do see in your idea, however, is that anyone who wants to run pan but doesn't want to get something else entirely could still make use of what they have (and what they are familiar with.) When it comes down to it, my vote would be in favor of it, provided anyone with issues could hold tech on such a car to make sure there isn't excessive play and thus unfair advantage. But again, unless someone is really heavily invested in what they are driving, I think it'd be cheaper to unload what you have and get something else entirely.
My two cents worth...sell what you have and either buy one of my cheapies or build a pan or wait till we get ours built and duplicate it.
The one place of merit I do see in your idea, however, is that anyone who wants to run pan but doesn't want to get something else entirely could still make use of what they have (and what they are familiar with.) When it comes down to it, my vote would be in favor of it, provided anyone with issues could hold tech on such a car to make sure there isn't excessive play and thus unfair advantage. But again, unless someone is really heavily invested in what they are driving, I think it'd be cheaper to unload what you have and get something else entirely.
09-17-2012, 08:45 PM
#2013
[QUOTE=hitcharide1;11221968]
I see problems with that. First, you've still got an inherently weak setup, still no good for newbies. Second, you've now got a straight axle (solid axle for you other types) which means the car doesn't turn too well. Third, Lon was ruling something like that out earlier in the year, I believe the argument was even with everything locked out, there's still too much play and what not. I had that same idea regarding my Super Eagle and the collective opinion was no way in hell.
My two cents worth...sell what you have and either buy one of my cheapies or build a pan or wait till we get ours built and duplicate it.
The one place of merit I do see in your idea, however, is that anyone who wants to run pan but doesn't want to get something else entirely could still make use of what they have (and what they are familiar with.) When it comes down to it, my vote would be in favor of it, provided anyone with issues could hold tech on such a car to make sure there isn't excessive play and thus unfair advantage. But again, unless someone is really heavily invested in what they are driving, I think it'd be cheaper to unload what you have and get something else entirely.
......didnt mean that the car would be run as a "pan"....but as a cheap 2wd suspension car.........im also against
an ex 4WD car with supspension locked out for pan class......
I see problems with that. First, you've still got an inherently weak setup, still no good for newbies. Second, you've now got a straight axle (solid axle for you other types) which means the car doesn't turn too well. Third, Lon was ruling something like that out earlier in the year, I believe the argument was even with everything locked out, there's still too much play and what not. I had that same idea regarding my Super Eagle and the collective opinion was no way in hell.
My two cents worth...sell what you have and either buy one of my cheapies or build a pan or wait till we get ours built and duplicate it.
The one place of merit I do see in your idea, however, is that anyone who wants to run pan but doesn't want to get something else entirely could still make use of what they have (and what they are familiar with.) When it comes down to it, my vote would be in favor of it, provided anyone with issues could hold tech on such a car to make sure there isn't excessive play and thus unfair advantage. But again, unless someone is really heavily invested in what they are driving, I think it'd be cheaper to unload what you have and get something else entirely.
an ex 4WD car with supspension locked out for pan class......
09-17-2012, 09:34 PM
#2014
Ah
[QUOTE=Taylorm;11222877]See..this is what happens when I don't pay attention. Won't have enough steering without a diff, I remember trying to run a Super Eagle with the diff locked down and the thing just wouldn't turn. That said, you could just yank the belt and see what happens, maybe the setup of the 4wd would change things somehow but I doubt it.
09-18-2012, 01:42 AM
#2015
Tech Regular
Jury is still out.
Not completely done with solid axle idea. Think it was a mistake to just put it in a diff car and not change the set up for it.
09-18-2012, 08:16 AM
#2016
Just Talking!!!! EL/RC
The "ENTRY LEVEL/RTR CAR" could become a reality!
09-18-2012, 08:38 AM
#2017
Tech Regular
[QUOTE=Taylorm;11221571]Well I'm not sure , might be interesting to try - we probably ran for the first 7 or 8 years without diffs (I know for certain the car I ran at the 77 worlds does not have a diff) , and even then we'd pull them out on high traction situations.
09-18-2012, 12:15 PM
#2018
[QUOTE=Rick Davis;11224401]may just work, my car was getting too "diffy" so i opened up the diff, yuck that lube turns into something strange. after refill is a bit stiffer
09-18-2012, 02:09 PM
#2019
[QUOTE=5italkart;11225245]
Need thicker grease like ball joint grease....most of
The pans are diffing bad and are losing ( gaining)
Lap time...
The pans are diffing bad and are losing ( gaining)
Lap time...
09-18-2012, 02:12 PM
#2020
Hm
I thought about trying it before and then talked myself out of it. I must have at least five of the things, maybe I'll throw one together and give it a shot at the club race on the 30th...find out once and for all if straight axle on a pan will work.
09-18-2012, 03:13 PM
#2021
[QUOTE=Taylorm;11225659]Lon and I have both been running 200, 000 for a while. I started to dif out a bit this last Sunday. I don't think 300,000 is out of the question, but this dif is a pain to work on.
09-18-2012, 04:48 PM
#2022
Hm
[QUOTE=Farmer_John;11225943]
Part of the reason of our new build going with the kyosho diff..got some advantages. It's adjustable, gear driven (no bloody ball bearing set) and it's interchangable with ofna, redcat, and a few others. Tom and I have this theory that all of 'em are built in the same factory, but with different names stamped on them...there's no other way to explain how they are all exactly the same size and shape. A bunch of something is always going to be cheaper than just a few, and interchangability means one guy breaking down (unlikely) means someone at the track will have parts. I suspect the things don't break much anyhow, Tom used his in an offroad for two years, then adapted it for GT and has never had the slightest issue with it...And I've found the entire diff, case and gears, on Ebay as cheap as 40 bucks.
That said, I'm still thinking I should maybe dig out a straight axle, just to see what it would do. The thing I wonder is, aside from possible handling issues, would it eat more rubber? The advantage of having a straight axle requiring no maintenance may not outweigh a diff that requires little or no maintenance.
Another issue is that with the Super J, the axle runs from tire to tire. Adapting it to run the new tires is easy enough, but one of the aspects of our build was to include adjustment for caster/camber and toe. I could build a straight axle setup that still has that, but then have to build a carrier...and frankly, what's the point? That or I use the same case and just fix the spiders, like what we've done for full size autos.
Upshot: I'll probably still throw a straight J together, just to have a whack, but still proceed on with the other build as I think it's going to do well...and it'll be fun to build and run.
That said, I'm still thinking I should maybe dig out a straight axle, just to see what it would do. The thing I wonder is, aside from possible handling issues, would it eat more rubber? The advantage of having a straight axle requiring no maintenance may not outweigh a diff that requires little or no maintenance.
Another issue is that with the Super J, the axle runs from tire to tire. Adapting it to run the new tires is easy enough, but one of the aspects of our build was to include adjustment for caster/camber and toe. I could build a straight axle setup that still has that, but then have to build a carrier...and frankly, what's the point? That or I use the same case and just fix the spiders, like what we've done for full size autos.
Upshot: I'll probably still throw a straight J together, just to have a whack, but still proceed on with the other build as I think it's going to do well...and it'll be fun to build and run.
09-18-2012, 05:34 PM
#2023
Phil...think less. Do more.
One thing to take into consideration with off road based diffs is internal gearing. I'm also here to tell you that there are at least 4 bearings in a good off road dif and shimming makes all the difference in the world to efficiency..
For example: Associated runs 4.30:1, Losi runs 3.30:1 while Kyosho (in the MP9 anyway is at 3.31:1 Makes a big difference when you go to gear for your final.
One thing to take into consideration with off road based diffs is internal gearing. I'm also here to tell you that there are at least 4 bearings in a good off road dif and shimming makes all the difference in the world to efficiency..
For example: Associated runs 4.30:1, Losi runs 3.30:1 while Kyosho (in the MP9 anyway is at 3.31:1 Makes a big difference when you go to gear for your final.
Part of the reason of our new build going with the kyosho diff..got some advantages. It's adjustable, gear driven (no bloody ball bearing set) and it's interchangable with ofna, redcat, and a few others. Tom and I have this theory that all of 'em are built in the same factory, but with different names stamped on them...there's no other way to explain how they are all exactly the same size and shape. A bunch of something is always going to be cheaper than just a few, and interchangability means one guy breaking down (unlikely) means someone at the track will have parts. I suspect the things don't break much anyhow, Tom used his in an offroad for two years, then adapted it for GT and has never had the slightest issue with it...And I've found the entire diff, case and gears, on Ebay as cheap as 40 bucks.
That said, I'm still thinking I should maybe dig out a straight axle, just to see what it would do. The thing I wonder is, aside from possible handling issues, would it eat more rubber? The advantage of having a straight axle requiring no maintenance may not outweigh a diff that requires little or no maintenance.
Another issue is that with the Super J, the axle runs from tire to tire. Adapting it to run the new tires is easy enough, but one of the aspects of our build was to include adjustment for caster/camber and toe. I could build a straight axle setup that still has that, but then have to build a carrier...and frankly, what's the point? That or I use the same case and just fix the spiders, like what we've done for full size autos.
Upshot: I'll probably still throw a straight J together, just to have a whack, but still proceed on with the other build as I think it's going to do well...and it'll be fun to build and run.
That said, I'm still thinking I should maybe dig out a straight axle, just to see what it would do. The thing I wonder is, aside from possible handling issues, would it eat more rubber? The advantage of having a straight axle requiring no maintenance may not outweigh a diff that requires little or no maintenance.
Another issue is that with the Super J, the axle runs from tire to tire. Adapting it to run the new tires is easy enough, but one of the aspects of our build was to include adjustment for caster/camber and toe. I could build a straight axle setup that still has that, but then have to build a carrier...and frankly, what's the point? That or I use the same case and just fix the spiders, like what we've done for full size autos.
Upshot: I'll probably still throw a straight J together, just to have a whack, but still proceed on with the other build as I think it's going to do well...and it'll be fun to build and run.
09-18-2012, 06:25 PM
#2024
Just for the record, the Motonica P8C series differential is an oil filled gear diff. Off road buggy diffs use bevel gears, the Motonica diff uses worm type gears, but the basic concept and assembly is similiar. The diff that was in my car (which now belongs to Farmer) has the original gears, orings, and external bearings (just like an off road diff), and only the oil has been changed. The car and diff is now about 4 years old I think.
If you are finding the diff difficult to work on, I think I know what the problem might be. The first time you build it, it will go together very easy. The second and consequent times, you will need to open and empty the 2 halves completely. Take it apart, place each half facing down and allow all the oil to come out. If the small holes in either half, where the pins that hold the gears in place, contain any oil when you try to place the gears/pins back in place, the oil will tend to push the pins out. If they holes are empty/dry, everything should drop into place, fill with oil, join the halves, and install back in the car.
If you are finding the diff difficult to work on, I think I know what the problem might be. The first time you build it, it will go together very easy. The second and consequent times, you will need to open and empty the 2 halves completely. Take it apart, place each half facing down and allow all the oil to come out. If the small holes in either half, where the pins that hold the gears in place, contain any oil when you try to place the gears/pins back in place, the oil will tend to push the pins out. If they holes are empty/dry, everything should drop into place, fill with oil, join the halves, and install back in the car.
09-18-2012, 07:03 PM
#2025
If you are finding the diff difficult to work on, I think I know what the problem might be. The first time you build it, it will go together very easy. The second and consequent times, you will need to open and empty the 2 halves completely. Take it apart, place each half facing down and allow all the oil to come out. If the small holes in either half, where the pins that hold the gears in place, contain any oil when you try to place the gears/pins back in place, the oil will tend to push the pins out. If they holes are empty/dry, everything should drop into place, fill with oil, join the halves, and install back in the car.
I do think Garen, that it's time to freshen the rear of the car up. I hope Italy has gone back to work.