General 1/8th Scale On-Road Thread
11-24-2007, 09:23 PM
#61
Check it out dude, you will drool I promise. Garen just posted some Great Pics of the car on the Motonica thread.
11-25-2007, 07:10 AM
#62
Wow, great answer on the tire questions. Most helpful, for sure.
My only question with the rear camber issue is, why aren't the cars designed so that the rears don't camber and wear so unevenly? I don't think I have ever seen a real or R/C race car that was designed with so much rear camber, then forced more camber into it with coned tires. It seems like a terrible solution to a design flaw, yet all of the manufacturers do the same thing. I don't get it.
Fantastic thread.
My only question with the rear camber issue is, why aren't the cars designed so that the rears don't camber and wear so unevenly? I don't think I have ever seen a real or R/C race car that was designed with so much rear camber, then forced more camber into it with coned tires. It seems like a terrible solution to a design flaw, yet all of the manufacturers do the same thing. I don't get it.
Fantastic thread.
11-25-2007, 07:28 AM
#63
Tech Adept
Darint - great reply. very informative.
As Darin said, each track is a bit different. The track me and SerpentD run on actually prefers bigger tires due to the track surface.
BlackFlag - All the major cars (Mugen, Kyosho, Serpent, Motonica) are all great cars. Each one will drive into the corners differently based on the suspension geometry. If you have been racing with the RRR, you may want to start with the Evolva (either 05, 07, or the M3 when it comes out) as the two cars will have a similar feeling when driving it and you'll be already be familiar with how the cars are built.
SerpentD - Please stop hyping up the Motonica
. Just joking, I know how excited you are about the car. I'll see ya next year.
ApexSpeed - no car wears all the tires the same, not even Formula 1. You're seeing larger camber angles on these cars due to the amount of suspension travel and the g-forces (you won't find many vehicles that endure higher forces) acting on the car while cornering. The amount of cornering force these cars go through is incredible, so these geometry's (especially in the newer cars) work very well.
As Darin said, each track is a bit different. The track me and SerpentD run on actually prefers bigger tires due to the track surface.
BlackFlag - All the major cars (Mugen, Kyosho, Serpent, Motonica) are all great cars. Each one will drive into the corners differently based on the suspension geometry. If you have been racing with the RRR, you may want to start with the Evolva (either 05, 07, or the M3 when it comes out) as the two cars will have a similar feeling when driving it and you'll be already be familiar with how the cars are built.
SerpentD - Please stop hyping up the Motonica
. Just joking, I know how excited you are about the car. I'll see ya next year.ApexSpeed - no car wears all the tires the same, not even Formula 1. You're seeing larger camber angles on these cars due to the amount of suspension travel and the g-forces (you won't find many vehicles that endure higher forces) acting on the car while cornering. The amount of cornering force these cars go through is incredible, so these geometry's (especially in the newer cars) work very well.
11-25-2007, 12:33 PM
#66
Darint - great reply. very informative.
As Darin said, each track is a bit different. The track me and SerpentD run on actually prefers bigger tires due to the track surface.
BlackFlag - All the major cars (Mugen, Kyosho, Serpent, Motonica) are all great cars. Each one will drive into the corners differently based on the suspension geometry. If you have been racing with the RRR, you may want to start with the Evolva (either 05, 07, or the M3 when it comes out) as the two cars will have a similar feeling when driving it and you'll be already be familiar with how the cars are built.
SerpentD - Please stop hyping up the Motonica. Just joking, I know how excited you are about the car. I'll see ya next year.
ApexSpeed - no car wears all the tires the same, not even Formula 1. You're seeing larger camber angles on these cars due to the amount of suspension travel and the g-forces (you won't find many vehicles that endure higher forces) acting on the car while cornering. The amount of cornering force these cars go through is incredible, so these geometry's (especially in the newer cars) work very well.
As Darin said, each track is a bit different. The track me and SerpentD run on actually prefers bigger tires due to the track surface.
BlackFlag - All the major cars (Mugen, Kyosho, Serpent, Motonica) are all great cars. Each one will drive into the corners differently based on the suspension geometry. If you have been racing with the RRR, you may want to start with the Evolva (either 05, 07, or the M3 when it comes out) as the two cars will have a similar feeling when driving it and you'll be already be familiar with how the cars are built.
SerpentD - Please stop hyping up the Motonica
. Just joking, I know how excited you are about the car. I'll see ya next year.ApexSpeed - no car wears all the tires the same, not even Formula 1. You're seeing larger camber angles on these cars due to the amount of suspension travel and the g-forces (you won't find many vehicles that endure higher forces) acting on the car while cornering. The amount of cornering force these cars go through is incredible, so these geometry's (especially in the newer cars) work very well.
As far as the camber issue, I see what Apexspeed is trying to say, but just like Darkangel said, the G-force is incredible with these cars. I ran accross a few "action" photos and it really shows the rear camber in action. let me see if I can find them again and post a few. This will show you first hand.
11-25-2007, 12:59 PM
#67
K guys, here are the "rear camber action" shots. I did not take these photos. The dude that did I think his name is on the picture. So just to give him due credit, he took some excellent pics for sure. Also, look at the difference in tire diameter on each car going around the corner (looks like same corner). You can see the HUGE amounts of camber gain on these shots. Just imagine the forces on the other back tire that you can't see. The tires you can't see is where you need these larger camber angles.
Also, look at the difference in tire diameter on each car going around the corner (looks like same corner). You can see the HUGE amounts of camber gain on these shots. Just imagine the forces on the other back tire that you can't see. The tires you can't see is where you need these larger camber angles.
11-25-2007, 01:40 PM
#69
K guys, here are the "rear camber action" shots. I did not take these photos. The dude that did I think his name is on the picture. So just to give him due credit, he took some excellent pics for sure. Also, look at the difference in tire diameter on each car going around the corner (looks like same corner). You can see the HUGE amounts of camber gain on these shots. Just imagine the forces on the other back tire that you can't see. The tires you can't see is where you need these larger camber angles.
Also, look at the difference in tire diameter on each car going around the corner (looks like same corner). You can see the HUGE amounts of camber gain on these shots. Just imagine the forces on the other back tire that you can't see. The tires you can't see is where you need these larger camber angles.Now that I am looking at those photos, I'm wondering if the suspension was designed around a live rear axle that will never allow the inside tire to turn less than the outside tire. So the solution would be to lift a majority of the inside tire off of the ground in the corner with stupid camber gain. An odd solution to a problem to me, as I would think a car with the most contact patch on the ground through a corner would perform at a greater level than one scrubbing and lifting tires off the ground.
So a side question is, why the live rear axle without a differential? Wouldn't a car with a suspension design that allowed for more tire on the ground through the corner using at least a rear differential behave more consistently?
Just wondering out loud... nothing more than questions to a fairly foreign concept to me.
doug
11-25-2007, 01:51 PM
#70
Well, I posted those photos just to show you the G-force. If I showed you pics of the other side of the car, all you will see is the tire being flat on the asphault using the entire contact patch of the tire. If I found a rear pic of a car going around a corner like this, then it would be easier to see. So yeah, the pics didn't entirely explaing camber since those are the tires that or Unloading, but just wanted to give you the sence of what Darkangel was talking about with the high G-forces. I don't think that a diff would hold up to the power these cars give. Plus honestly, these cars are stupid fast with this solid rear axel design. So, no issues there. I see the gears turning in you brain, and you are making some good points. I need to leave right now, so sorry for the fast incomplete post Apex and everyone. Back soon. Later.
11-25-2007, 03:35 PM
#71
Tech Adept
SerpentD - I'll send you a pm about Carol and Sal DiFazio
ApexSpeed - I understand your thoughts, I had them as well trying to figure out why certain things are what they are and still work. The scale difference and the incredible differences in forces (they are probably 2 to 3 times that of a F1 car in relation to each other) is where the suspension theories kinda break down. There are probably certain F1 tracks that requires 2+ degrees of camber on a F1 car to provide enough camber gain. Also remember F1 cars suspension only moves a few inches at most in relation to the car, where 1/8 cars suspension moves a great deal more in comparison.
SerpentD is probably right about the gears in a diff not being able to withstand the torque these engines produce. Also remember a rear diff = understeer (to a point) in these cars. 1/8 cars almost demand you use your throttle finger to steer the car as much as the front steering does. With a diff you will never get that unless you put some extra thick oil in (at which point you might as well have a solid in). You will have a lot of grip from the tires to overcome to get the car to turn.
ApexSpeed - I understand your thoughts, I had them as well trying to figure out why certain things are what they are and still work. The scale difference and the incredible differences in forces (they are probably 2 to 3 times that of a F1 car in relation to each other) is where the suspension theories kinda break down. There are probably certain F1 tracks that requires 2+ degrees of camber on a F1 car to provide enough camber gain. Also remember F1 cars suspension only moves a few inches at most in relation to the car, where 1/8 cars suspension moves a great deal more in comparison.
SerpentD is probably right about the gears in a diff not being able to withstand the torque these engines produce. Also remember a rear diff = understeer (to a point) in these cars. 1/8 cars almost demand you use your throttle finger to steer the car as much as the front steering does. With a diff you will never get that unless you put some extra thick oil in (at which point you might as well have a solid in). You will have a lot of grip from the tires to overcome to get the car to turn.
11-25-2007, 05:05 PM
#72
My only question with the rear camber issue is, why aren't the cars designed so that the rears don't camber and wear so unevenly? I don't think I have ever seen a real or R/C race car that was designed with so much rear camber, then forced more camber into it with coned tires.
You don't "cone" the fronts and they are at least half the width if not smaller than the rears.
Doug
11-25-2007, 07:20 PM
#74
One thing ive heard from a racer about coning the wheel is that the outside wheel will alway have a larger diameter than the inside wheel. when power is applied the same power is sent to both the rear wheels. So lets say the point of contact is a single point. As the car rolls more, the point of contact moves towards the larger diameter for the outside tire......towards the smaller diameter for the inside tire.
When power is applied, the larger diameter of the outside wheel "pushes" the car more than the smaller diameter of the inside wheel. This puts a torque on the outside of car making it turn in the corner a little better, in theory.
Sorry if I confused anyone
When power is applied, the larger diameter of the outside wheel "pushes" the car more than the smaller diameter of the inside wheel. This puts a torque on the outside of car making it turn in the corner a little better, in theory.
Sorry if I confused anyone
11-25-2007, 07:59 PM
#75
Something to think about...the rear tires on 1/8th scale are REALLY wide. When you put a few degrees of camber in them, the outside of the tire no longer is touching the ground. By "coning" the tire, you allow the whole tire to contact the ground. I don't think any other full scale car runs with tires that are as wide as they are "scale" wise on 1/8th.
You don't "cone" the fronts and they are at least half the width if not smaller than the rears.
Doug
You don't "cone" the fronts and they are at least half the width if not smaller than the rears.
Doug