SteveP

Zoot, the registration on the ROAR forum needs to be verified, so that will be forthcoming, but thanks for the reasonable question.

JLock, the sarcastic rhetoric is not productive. If you want to have any part in a substantive discussion, you can leave that stuff out. The rules are not chiseled in stone, and I want people to ask questions if they don't agree or want to know more, but I personally wont tolerate anyone being disrespectful or antagonistic. This is all done by very experienced volunteers that are doing what they believe is in the best interests of class longevity and the interests of the members. If this is the way you want to approach the discussion, then I guess well have to reconsider whether we have a discussion at all in an open forum like RC Tech. I'd personally rather have your input, but I'm not going to be henpecked by anyone who just wants to stir the poo. It's up to you.

The reason for the "no dish wheels" is to preserve the scale appearance of the class. Little if any real race cars use dish wheels, and we shouldn't either IMO. Like the bodies, THE defining characteristic of the class is the appearance of the cars. The use of dish wheels has been questioned for years by people that have been in the industry for decades. Even they don't like the "look" of the wheels, but concede "that ship has already sailed" and in hindsight, would have preferred that they not be allowed. There are some that prefer them for whatever reasons and that's fine in the classes that already allow them, but this is a chance to start with a set of rules that prevents the incremental slip from scale appearance.

I'll leave the "double standard" comment alone - the fact that something has been allowed in another class has no merit in this discussion.

It's not as if there's an event planned for next week using these rules, so someone's current inventory of tires should be a non-issue by the time an event is scheduled.

Bubba Cola

iTrader: (1)

Steve, Will that mean the Ofna car which come with a flat chassis not be allowed? I'm not driving a Kyosho. Only two Gt cars made and one not legal. MMmmmmmmmmm. I think not allowing Ofna will kill the class more then a flat chassis

SteveP

Hey Bubba,

The original draft included wording that allowed for the possibility of grandfathering the DM-One spec (only in its current form) to allow it to run until they decide they're going to make a new model, or just run with the car that's already legal. The language about what items to grandfather in spite of the rules didn't make it on to the forum, but it's still an option none the less.

In the interests of making it much easier for other manufacturers to become involved, the rules have to go one way or the other, and in deference to the fact that it costs nothing for other manufacturers to use a chassis that they're already making, this seems the logical choice. Hong Nor and Hobao both make buggies and racing trucks that would fit right in, and the GTP is currently legal.

In it's current form, I don't think it's an advantage they way they've constructed the car, but to leave the door open for other manufacturers to pull it off successfully would also allow for the possibility that all others would have to follow, which increases the cost again. The rules are written to keep it entirely based on the chassis from a current buggy/truck, which is the way it's been for 20 years. It's intended to keep a level and inexpensive playing field.

Zootcapri

iTrader: (6)

If there were to be a ROAR event (speculation) for this class I would hope that there be a grandfathering of dish wheels for say two years. This would help those of us that have been running the class for several years before it got on ROAR's radar. Kronos is another fine tire that, while promoted to have a spoked tires, States-side distributor seems to have only dish wheels.

Just my $.02 worth (and worth every penny).

SteveP

What if some bought five years worth of tires (hypothetical)? Should we leave it open for five years? Ten? I'm just playing devils advocate.

I understand from a personal perspective that it will have a impact (even if it is only for a ROAR event), but from a global perspective all angles need to be considered based on what's good for everyone without making it a huge mess to regulate.

Assuming we went through with grandfathering dish wheels, do you say only people that bought them prior to the rule can still run them? What about the people that don't have them? What if it's left wide open until the last day of the grace period? What about the guy that just bought four sets of tires a month before the end of the grace period?

Just food for thought.

Zootcapri

iTrader: (6)

Thanks again for the response. I would suggest that set a date sometime in the future... Two years from yesterday.... dunno... then no more. This would allow those that may have just bought them and those that have had them for some time as well as those that may find a 'deal' tomorrow to use them up. You'd have a tough time tech'ing receipts to see when purchased. I personally have some that have another season in them if I used them exclusively. If a date was set (5 or 10....), even give it through 2011... It would allow the racers that have them or just purchased them to use them up. It would give suppliers a chance to clear inventories. It would give Mfgrs a chance to gear up.

Bottom line to me... this is not a heart attack problem... I am cautiously glad to see a formal organization validate the class with this action. Of all the rules ('cause I run in inferno and not the ofna) this was the only 'what?'. In an effort to save some $ I would like to see the dish wheels used for a while and then work on perserving the scale look with spoked wheels.

Two paragraphs... I will now have to state that this is just my $.04 worth... and worth every penny....

Of course...there are some... even there in SoCal ... that say the class is dead... so it may not be an issue... We like the class in Utah (Where??). There are growing pockets of activity... just read that the class was dead in a thread for a LA race...

Jspeed

SteveP,

Think you're doing a good thing helping the GT cars out with ROAR, it's good that our "class" would be included in all Roar sanctioned events too.

You have some work to do, but I'm sure you'll figure it all out the best ways possible.

Thanks for always supporting the GT racing programs all these years.

jneg

The rules look fine but they are missing one important thing, there is no mention of any driving aid like the D-Box that allows you to easily control the drift of the cars (drifters use this electronic aid in their cars, I think HPI makes one). This is like a gyro for cars.

Arboleda

iTrader: (15)

Nice work so far on the rules.

I would definitely recommend grandfathering the DM1 and extending a date on the dish wheels (two years from yesterday sounds good).

What are the thoughts on engines for the spec class? In our locale and others, $200 pops up as a very common limit. This is not based on a one-time out-of-the-alley price tag but rather on general availability at this price. Or do you think you'll just stick to RTR engines (this has its owl perils).

mcsquish

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad to see that ROAR is trying to create a single set of rules, which look a lot like a set of rules being used.....(thanks JSpeed! and Steve......)
I personally like the idea of no dish wheels. But that being said, I am sure there are sets tires with dish wheels currently in warehouses ready to be sold. There are also tire companies that have inventory of dish wheels that they already have in house that need to be used up. Plus the fact I have 8 sets of dish wheels (Not by choice, but sometimes you have to get what is available) still in their bags I would like to see them legal say until 1-1-12 or something. It would leave a bad taste for companies that have supported this class by providing tires to be told, 'Sorry, all of the tires you have made with dish wheels and all of the dish wheels you have on-hand are not legal.' Now I also understand that there are tracks, clubs, bashers, what-not that will still allow and or use them even if the ROAR rules say they are not legal.
I do want to thank all of the companies that have supported this class and everyone that have made this class what it is today.

JDCrow

iTrader: (32)

Electronic Devices such as the D-Box are currently not allowed in any ROAR Class. It is located in General Vehicle Rules 5.2.3

SteveP

Zoot, thanks for the information. I understand where you're coming from and I'll be sure it's offered for consideration. Pay no attention to the non-believers. They're usually 1/8 guys that don't want to race with them anyway. It's the same song they were singing with 1/10 touring cars came out.

Thanks Jeff. I have to out Jeff on one thing - he's a dish wheel hater!

jneg - the use of a gyro is addressed in the general competition rules, so it applies to this class as well. No driver aids are permitted at ROAR events. You have to drive it yourself.

Arboleda - I agree on the car, the years on the tires, not so much. Two years is enough time for at least a mismanaged class to come and go. (Cough rock crawling cough) Perhaps there's some room for compromise, but get out there and practice a little more often so it's not an issue.

I have some ideas on the engines. It looks like there are going to be two classes - spec and modified. Spec is the class where it's going to be the most difficult to decide. I'd like to establish some guidelines for engines, so the class would be open to any design as long as it meets certain requirements. I'm well equipped to check all the specifications on any engine. Port timing, crank timing, bore and stroke can be easily measured, and from that I can establish limits. But, before I get ahead of myself, here are a few approaches that we can consider:

Stock engine only - this would put the monkey on the manufacturer's back to make a better engine, so that may be good. I'd like to see people be competitive with the engine that comes with the car. But, what happens when a car manufacturer stuffs a "standard" engine made by a vendor that sells a Novarossi copy with crazy port timing? Perhaps the engine won't last, but it'll run well enough to survive one race. This might require that someone buy a new car if they want the maximum horsepower. So, good on one hand, but it could open a can of worms. This scenario might also require a retail alternative just in case the factory supplied engine isn't available. So, I think we'd need a couple additional choices to cover the "what if's?"

Price limits - I like the idea of price limits, but a equally good or better argument has talked me out of it. Lets say you have a good, powerful and reliable engine made by OS, and it sell for around 200. Then, let's say 6 Chinese engines are made much higher performance specs similar to that of a Novarossi, Picco, OS, Orion (etc.). They can be made pretty cheaply and they might have good power for a gallon or two, but perhaps there's a reason they're that cheap - they're cheap! LOL Now, lets say that OS, Orion, Sirio, Novarossi, RB, and Picco make a very good, high-quality engine that meets the specs, runs for 10 gallons, holds a better tune, never needs a new rod or bearings, etc., and it sells for $269. I'd personally rather see everyone have the option of buyinf the better engine and not limit it to junk engines just because of the price.

"Spec" engine - this is the one that most appealing to me. Set maximum limits on the induction timing, transfer and exhaust port size and timing, and the features that can be included in the engine, then create a list of approved engines and let the racer decide which engine they'd prefer. By limiting the features and allowing competition, the price will find it's own level and I imagine that it'll be reasonable. I think the membership would be better served by giving them more options.

Mcsquish - Thank you. Jeff and I worked on those rules on and off for about a year, so I'll thanks for the props, even though it's posthumously.

Chris K

iTrader: (46)

Finally a set of ROAR rules for my favorite class!!!!!!! (this week anyway - I'm known to be fickle!). Thanks so much for the work that's been done so far!!!!

Here's a thought on the dish wheel debate: why not require a scale appearing decal/sticker on the wheel???? The oval guys have been using these on late models and. other scales for several years - they truly do lend a scale appearance AND cost a LOT less than a new set of wheels/tires.

Too simple???

Too cheap????

sorry.....

Jspeed

Decals on dish rims might work for the short term, might as well let them burn in rubber groove too.

Anybody have pics from the GT's at the Motonica race?

SteveP

I had a feeling this would come up.

We used to run them quite often in several classes, but on occasion, one would come loose and end up getting stuck on someone's tire, which would ruin their race. It didn't hurt anything, but you'd have to make a trip to pit lane to remove the sticker, and you were basically toast. So, adhesive wheel covers are not permitted because too many people were having the races ruined by other people running wheel stickers. I like Jeff's idea - use them for practice and let them lay down the rubber "groove" on the track.