Upgrading your Monster to Plastic or Aluminum?
12-27-2010, 06:50 PM
#1
Upgrading your Monster to Plastic or Aluminum?
I have read this on one of the website and I think it will be a great help to some of you. just want to share this.
I have heard this countless times. Why aluminum was a bad choice, when done to extremes, and then people asked "what about plastic". To be honest, there is no universal answer. I cannot answer what is best for the savage, revo, mgt, lst, 8ight, hyper, etc. Simply, there are too many kits out there and you have to do it to your taste. In other words, you own your kit and you get to decide what is best. This guide will, however, give you some food for thought before you fork out $500 when you really only needed to spend $100.
There is no universal answer.
Answers will vary on taste.
What is right for one person is not right for all.
What I have found is that there is a progression. If you know the kit well then upgrading in mass is ok. I have done that on a few kits (like the savage) with brilliant results. Other times I went a little too over board and had to scale back. But, people go through the progressions, especially bashers, of aluminum is kind of the ultimate and will load the kit up with it (they hear the words “bullet proof” and “ultimate”, they drink the kool aid, and are in deep off of what they heard over what is really the truth). If you are searching for a bling queen, or shelf queen, then that is fine. Personally, I like performance and enhancing how the kit runs. Most novices will load the kit up, realize the truths that re below, and then scale back or sell that kit.
Aluminum
The best advice to give to aluminum users is to do it with break points in mind. This does not mean that your kit needs to be circa-terminator style with an exo-skeleton on it. It can be just as "bullet-proof" with plastic on it. Too much aluminum adds performance crippling weight. As your kit, or let's take your own body, packs on more weight then it is harder to move. Same with RC. More weight on the kit then you need more force to move it. For an engine that means more off the line power to get it moving and for an electric that means more, and increased, energy drain. Also, like in real cars, it takes more effort to get up to speed. Once you are at speed then you use less fuel to maintain that speed (why cruise control is so efficient). If you add more weight then you use more power to get up to speed. I will go into this a little further with cogging later on. If you don’t have the power to do it then you will not be moving, or at least, very fast.
Another aspect to consider is how metal reacts to force. Aluminum adds rigidity which can be good. When a 50mph object collides against a concrete block, what happens? Is it logical to think that the kit should not break. No, just like it is not logical to blame the kit for breaking for your lack of driving skill. However, there is something to be said about two solid masses, both made to be rigid and add support, not giving. When the aluminum looses it will bend or transfer that energy to damage something else. This can be a gradual bend over time or a sudden bend. Once the process of bending starts then the aluminum will never be the same again. You can move item back to the state that it was in for the most part but it will never be the same. The bend location will be weaker and future bends will be easier. You just lost strength as you allocated a part that needed to be a break point and not rigidity.
Which lends to break points. Aluminum will do one of two things. It will either 1) bend or 2) transfer the damage that it should have received down the line. If there is plastic down the line, and the aluminum remains rigid, then the aluminum will give with the pressure and damage the part later on. So, you just saved the part that was metal but broke more plastic. Simply, you need a cheap break point. For an aluminum A-arm, is it easier and cheaper to replace the arm or the bulk head or the hubs? I would rather put aluminum on the hub to hold the driveline, leave the bulkhead plastic and the arm plastic with an aluminum tower. The tower is there to support the suspension from giving like plastic can, the hub is there to support the driveline, and the arm, the most commonly broken part, is the cheap break point.
Cheap break points, by the way, are easily stocked and carried in your bag. They are easily swappable. To mirror what I stated earlier, nothing is bullet-proof and RCs will break. We need to keep the cost down.
Once you start adding aluminum to fix these little areas then the downward spiral of aluminum starts. It triggers more and more aluminum. And metal on metal is bad, mkay. Two rigid areas will bend very fast. There needs to be some give, and something that can absorb that impact.
Cogging is the next concern. As your engine or motor strains then we have to realize a few things. You cannot make adjustments without changing the gearing. Whenever we change the weight, the type of engine/ motor, wheel size, etc, then we have to change gearing. Whenever the mass of the kit increases then over all gearing needs to decrease or add more torque. This is easiest done by changing the pinion/ clutch down or the spur gear up. You want to maintain the engineering trans/gear ratio but also meet the needs to the added weight. It is not always advisable to go to a more torque motor as that will effect weight, more voltage, cell capacity, etc. Cogging, by the way, is the straining of the motor to move over gearing, weight, etc of the kit. It’s the stuttering of the motor to get what it wants (for an e-motor this will mean very high current drains at the point where it struggles to more an 8 to 15 point object to get it rolling initially) in terms of energy to start pushing the kit; but it cannot.
How do you upgrade aluminum and how can it be bad?
You need to be sensible. If you are trying to maintain your weight of 2000 calories, and you want a 600 calorie big mac, then you can have it. You just have to adjust your diet accordingly to maintain 2000 calories. IE: something goes out to compromise. If you are a drinker, then every beer is 150 to 250 empty calories that you are putting in, so in order to maintain, you will have to take out food that would do something for you; or go over. If the goal is to not go over then you need to compensate. When I did my 5BeAST (5b electric conversion projected) I knew that I would have to do a few aluminum upgrades. The mount itself was heavy, the gearing I needed was aluminum, etc. So, to add that weight on I took weight off. Or, I maintained my 2,000 calorie diet. I took heavy aluminum chassis and plates off for carbon fiber (discussed later) which is more rigid than plastic, gives a little more than aluminum, but tough as well with less weight.
With the above, you want to add aluminum that gains you something. This means that pretty aluminum does nothing for you. If you have a high impact spot that you want to strengthen then it might be best to strengthen around that point and make that spot plastic. Also, aluminum for high wear spots is a good idea. I like to use the revo throttle pivot arm as an example. The plastic wears out but the aluminum lasts longer.
Back to pretty aluminum, read about it before you buy. If you are shopping for budget then you might be getting T0 parts. What is T0? Its non-tempered aluminum. Or, in other words, it will "bend like butter". You can take Integy T0 arms, heat temper them, and then will be just as good as anything else on the market. But that adds cost. It also adds strength. Many buy these over cost though. They soon learn that it does not last as long for impact areas. You want to get 6061 or 7075 aluminum in T6 temper rating. It has gone through the tempering process and is more durable. It does, however, cost more though.
In summary, plan the upgrades. Leave the spots plastic that have need to break. A arms, as an example, are a great spot to leave plastic and then buff the areas around it up.
Plastic, Delrin or RPM?
Plastic tends to absorb the impact. In other words, it will bend with the impact. This can be good or bad. Too much bend could mean damage to internals. It could also cause differentials or gears to move and strip. However, for impact areas, it snaps if the impact is too strong with a cheap replacement or it will bend to absorb. This is not the case of the two rigid forces colliding. Plastic will not transfer the energy or aid in ripping other parts out.
A good build balances the two. You want the ability to bend in some areas and be rigid in others. A good build will encompass both of these while still being as close to stock weight as possible. Plastic is also a very economic alternative as it is cheaper. It’s easier to order 4 a arms before a bash and to keep them in your field bag. When you break, replace. When you are down to your last one then order a few more.
What about alternatives?
There are times where plastic is too weak. RPM is a plastic company that offers a great flexible plastic that tends to not break as often. When I need to replace an arm I tend to get RPM as my first choice over stock and aluminum. Also, there is a lifetime warranty on them. For kits like my LST which uses the same arms in the front and rear, I have 3 sets. Two on the kit and one in my bag. When I break, I replace, and send the broken set in for replacement. The set that I get back goes into my field bag.
Delrin is another great alternative. These are more for gears. It’s not always best to have metal on metal gears. But, when plastic wears out quickly, and there is nothing wrong with setup, then delrin gives you the best of both worlds. It is more durable than plastic but it also has the give of plastic over aluminum. For gears, this is the ideal solution.
Carbon fiber is another fantastic choice. It has the bending characteristic of plastic, it has the rigity of aluminum, it does not have the bend memory of aluminum, it handles heat well, etc. It will break and it is expensive. For racers who want to shave weight but still maintain the weight of the class, CF towers is a great way to shave that weight, have the rigity of aluminum that holds the shocks and will not bend, but also have the weight savings to beef somewhere else up.
How can plastic be bad?
Just like aluminum can be bad if done to the extreme then so can plastic. Plastic can be too flexible. Take the mini revo. The turnbuckles on that kit are plastic. They are very flexible, and at times, it renders the function of the turnbuckles useless. You need a aluminum alternative for that area for rigidity.
Just like too much weight is bad as it slows you down, too little weight can be bad too. If the kit is too light then it will not plant itself in the ground and lessen grip or control.
In addition to the bending, it can aid in the stripping of gears. If the plastic is in a housing, and it cannot control the gears from slipping upon impact, then you will start to understand why some savage owners went to aluminum bulkheads. Moving gears will strip them and strip them fast.
What can you do?
Plan the upgrade process. Make a list of what you are breaking and how to proceed. Move the kit around and shake it a little. What is moving? Where are you hitting it? What needs more rigidity and what needs to be a cheap break point? Do you fully understand your kit or is this a new kit to you (the more you know your kit, or that style of kit, the better the decisions you will make).
Once you have the answers then make the list. Ensure that you do not have metal to metal areas, and if you do, ensure that it is minimalized as much as possible.
Another key question to ask is are there alternatives? Are you buying because the brand or part is the new "it" thing or because you need it? Are there alternatives out there like RPM, delrin, or carbon fiber? I mention this on other subjects, but take conversions. Conversion parts to go from nitro to electric are expensive if you don't shop around. You can go to the same well as everyone else and pay a 40 to 60% higher premium just to have that brand. Or, you can pay a fraction of that cost, put the savings into better electronics, and have the same thing but better by shopping around. Do you really need a battery case for $25 or would you rather pay $5? Most go to the $25, shop around, and you can get the same thing for $5. Same with this topic. If you need stronger A arms then aluminum is not always the answer though you may see others with them. Is RPM available? Would titanium, a lighter and stronger material, be better or a budget buster?
The key thought here is that if you take something off to save weight then you can add weight somewhere else. Ensure that your kit is still balanced. And if you do it right, you can save a few grams and still have a stronger, more reliable kit, and the materials used will vary between aluminum and plastics and not just all aluminum.
Build a balanced kit. Aluminum for strength in the areas needed, plastic for cheap break points, delrin for added gear strength, RPM for warranty and durability, and carbon fiber where applicable.
Which leads into the last bit of advice- don't let other people spend your cash. I have seen many people get into this hobby and advise people on what to do. Majority of the time, they have wasted other people's money and broken their kits over inexperience. I have seen people state that they have been in the hobby for 10 years but are 14 or 16 years old, and in reality, just got into the hobby. You have to make the best decision for yourself. Many people are biased and it angers them that people do not like or buy what they recommend (ie: Savage vs Revo). So, try to decipher what is biased and what is not, who knows and who does not, and then balance it out in your head and figure out what is best for you. Only you can answer that, and after all, it is your cash. Spend it wisely as this hobby is not cheap.
I have heard this countless times. Why aluminum was a bad choice, when done to extremes, and then people asked "what about plastic". To be honest, there is no universal answer. I cannot answer what is best for the savage, revo, mgt, lst, 8ight, hyper, etc. Simply, there are too many kits out there and you have to do it to your taste. In other words, you own your kit and you get to decide what is best. This guide will, however, give you some food for thought before you fork out $500 when you really only needed to spend $100.
There is no universal answer.
Answers will vary on taste.
What is right for one person is not right for all.
What I have found is that there is a progression. If you know the kit well then upgrading in mass is ok. I have done that on a few kits (like the savage) with brilliant results. Other times I went a little too over board and had to scale back. But, people go through the progressions, especially bashers, of aluminum is kind of the ultimate and will load the kit up with it (they hear the words “bullet proof” and “ultimate”, they drink the kool aid, and are in deep off of what they heard over what is really the truth). If you are searching for a bling queen, or shelf queen, then that is fine. Personally, I like performance and enhancing how the kit runs. Most novices will load the kit up, realize the truths that re below, and then scale back or sell that kit.
Aluminum
The best advice to give to aluminum users is to do it with break points in mind. This does not mean that your kit needs to be circa-terminator style with an exo-skeleton on it. It can be just as "bullet-proof" with plastic on it. Too much aluminum adds performance crippling weight. As your kit, or let's take your own body, packs on more weight then it is harder to move. Same with RC. More weight on the kit then you need more force to move it. For an engine that means more off the line power to get it moving and for an electric that means more, and increased, energy drain. Also, like in real cars, it takes more effort to get up to speed. Once you are at speed then you use less fuel to maintain that speed (why cruise control is so efficient). If you add more weight then you use more power to get up to speed. I will go into this a little further with cogging later on. If you don’t have the power to do it then you will not be moving, or at least, very fast.
Another aspect to consider is how metal reacts to force. Aluminum adds rigidity which can be good. When a 50mph object collides against a concrete block, what happens? Is it logical to think that the kit should not break. No, just like it is not logical to blame the kit for breaking for your lack of driving skill. However, there is something to be said about two solid masses, both made to be rigid and add support, not giving. When the aluminum looses it will bend or transfer that energy to damage something else. This can be a gradual bend over time or a sudden bend. Once the process of bending starts then the aluminum will never be the same again. You can move item back to the state that it was in for the most part but it will never be the same. The bend location will be weaker and future bends will be easier. You just lost strength as you allocated a part that needed to be a break point and not rigidity.
Which lends to break points. Aluminum will do one of two things. It will either 1) bend or 2) transfer the damage that it should have received down the line. If there is plastic down the line, and the aluminum remains rigid, then the aluminum will give with the pressure and damage the part later on. So, you just saved the part that was metal but broke more plastic. Simply, you need a cheap break point. For an aluminum A-arm, is it easier and cheaper to replace the arm or the bulk head or the hubs? I would rather put aluminum on the hub to hold the driveline, leave the bulkhead plastic and the arm plastic with an aluminum tower. The tower is there to support the suspension from giving like plastic can, the hub is there to support the driveline, and the arm, the most commonly broken part, is the cheap break point.
Cheap break points, by the way, are easily stocked and carried in your bag. They are easily swappable. To mirror what I stated earlier, nothing is bullet-proof and RCs will break. We need to keep the cost down.
Once you start adding aluminum to fix these little areas then the downward spiral of aluminum starts. It triggers more and more aluminum. And metal on metal is bad, mkay. Two rigid areas will bend very fast. There needs to be some give, and something that can absorb that impact.
Cogging is the next concern. As your engine or motor strains then we have to realize a few things. You cannot make adjustments without changing the gearing. Whenever we change the weight, the type of engine/ motor, wheel size, etc, then we have to change gearing. Whenever the mass of the kit increases then over all gearing needs to decrease or add more torque. This is easiest done by changing the pinion/ clutch down or the spur gear up. You want to maintain the engineering trans/gear ratio but also meet the needs to the added weight. It is not always advisable to go to a more torque motor as that will effect weight, more voltage, cell capacity, etc. Cogging, by the way, is the straining of the motor to move over gearing, weight, etc of the kit. It’s the stuttering of the motor to get what it wants (for an e-motor this will mean very high current drains at the point where it struggles to more an 8 to 15 point object to get it rolling initially) in terms of energy to start pushing the kit; but it cannot.
How do you upgrade aluminum and how can it be bad?
You need to be sensible. If you are trying to maintain your weight of 2000 calories, and you want a 600 calorie big mac, then you can have it. You just have to adjust your diet accordingly to maintain 2000 calories. IE: something goes out to compromise. If you are a drinker, then every beer is 150 to 250 empty calories that you are putting in, so in order to maintain, you will have to take out food that would do something for you; or go over. If the goal is to not go over then you need to compensate. When I did my 5BeAST (5b electric conversion projected) I knew that I would have to do a few aluminum upgrades. The mount itself was heavy, the gearing I needed was aluminum, etc. So, to add that weight on I took weight off. Or, I maintained my 2,000 calorie diet. I took heavy aluminum chassis and plates off for carbon fiber (discussed later) which is more rigid than plastic, gives a little more than aluminum, but tough as well with less weight.
With the above, you want to add aluminum that gains you something. This means that pretty aluminum does nothing for you. If you have a high impact spot that you want to strengthen then it might be best to strengthen around that point and make that spot plastic. Also, aluminum for high wear spots is a good idea. I like to use the revo throttle pivot arm as an example. The plastic wears out but the aluminum lasts longer.
Back to pretty aluminum, read about it before you buy. If you are shopping for budget then you might be getting T0 parts. What is T0? Its non-tempered aluminum. Or, in other words, it will "bend like butter". You can take Integy T0 arms, heat temper them, and then will be just as good as anything else on the market. But that adds cost. It also adds strength. Many buy these over cost though. They soon learn that it does not last as long for impact areas. You want to get 6061 or 7075 aluminum in T6 temper rating. It has gone through the tempering process and is more durable. It does, however, cost more though.
In summary, plan the upgrades. Leave the spots plastic that have need to break. A arms, as an example, are a great spot to leave plastic and then buff the areas around it up.
Plastic, Delrin or RPM?
Plastic tends to absorb the impact. In other words, it will bend with the impact. This can be good or bad. Too much bend could mean damage to internals. It could also cause differentials or gears to move and strip. However, for impact areas, it snaps if the impact is too strong with a cheap replacement or it will bend to absorb. This is not the case of the two rigid forces colliding. Plastic will not transfer the energy or aid in ripping other parts out.
A good build balances the two. You want the ability to bend in some areas and be rigid in others. A good build will encompass both of these while still being as close to stock weight as possible. Plastic is also a very economic alternative as it is cheaper. It’s easier to order 4 a arms before a bash and to keep them in your field bag. When you break, replace. When you are down to your last one then order a few more.
What about alternatives?
There are times where plastic is too weak. RPM is a plastic company that offers a great flexible plastic that tends to not break as often. When I need to replace an arm I tend to get RPM as my first choice over stock and aluminum. Also, there is a lifetime warranty on them. For kits like my LST which uses the same arms in the front and rear, I have 3 sets. Two on the kit and one in my bag. When I break, I replace, and send the broken set in for replacement. The set that I get back goes into my field bag.
Delrin is another great alternative. These are more for gears. It’s not always best to have metal on metal gears. But, when plastic wears out quickly, and there is nothing wrong with setup, then delrin gives you the best of both worlds. It is more durable than plastic but it also has the give of plastic over aluminum. For gears, this is the ideal solution.
Carbon fiber is another fantastic choice. It has the bending characteristic of plastic, it has the rigity of aluminum, it does not have the bend memory of aluminum, it handles heat well, etc. It will break and it is expensive. For racers who want to shave weight but still maintain the weight of the class, CF towers is a great way to shave that weight, have the rigity of aluminum that holds the shocks and will not bend, but also have the weight savings to beef somewhere else up.
How can plastic be bad?
Just like aluminum can be bad if done to the extreme then so can plastic. Plastic can be too flexible. Take the mini revo. The turnbuckles on that kit are plastic. They are very flexible, and at times, it renders the function of the turnbuckles useless. You need a aluminum alternative for that area for rigidity.
Just like too much weight is bad as it slows you down, too little weight can be bad too. If the kit is too light then it will not plant itself in the ground and lessen grip or control.
In addition to the bending, it can aid in the stripping of gears. If the plastic is in a housing, and it cannot control the gears from slipping upon impact, then you will start to understand why some savage owners went to aluminum bulkheads. Moving gears will strip them and strip them fast.
What can you do?
Plan the upgrade process. Make a list of what you are breaking and how to proceed. Move the kit around and shake it a little. What is moving? Where are you hitting it? What needs more rigidity and what needs to be a cheap break point? Do you fully understand your kit or is this a new kit to you (the more you know your kit, or that style of kit, the better the decisions you will make).
Once you have the answers then make the list. Ensure that you do not have metal to metal areas, and if you do, ensure that it is minimalized as much as possible.
Another key question to ask is are there alternatives? Are you buying because the brand or part is the new "it" thing or because you need it? Are there alternatives out there like RPM, delrin, or carbon fiber? I mention this on other subjects, but take conversions. Conversion parts to go from nitro to electric are expensive if you don't shop around. You can go to the same well as everyone else and pay a 40 to 60% higher premium just to have that brand. Or, you can pay a fraction of that cost, put the savings into better electronics, and have the same thing but better by shopping around. Do you really need a battery case for $25 or would you rather pay $5? Most go to the $25, shop around, and you can get the same thing for $5. Same with this topic. If you need stronger A arms then aluminum is not always the answer though you may see others with them. Is RPM available? Would titanium, a lighter and stronger material, be better or a budget buster?
The key thought here is that if you take something off to save weight then you can add weight somewhere else. Ensure that your kit is still balanced. And if you do it right, you can save a few grams and still have a stronger, more reliable kit, and the materials used will vary between aluminum and plastics and not just all aluminum.
Build a balanced kit. Aluminum for strength in the areas needed, plastic for cheap break points, delrin for added gear strength, RPM for warranty and durability, and carbon fiber where applicable.
Which leads into the last bit of advice- don't let other people spend your cash. I have seen many people get into this hobby and advise people on what to do. Majority of the time, they have wasted other people's money and broken their kits over inexperience. I have seen people state that they have been in the hobby for 10 years but are 14 or 16 years old, and in reality, just got into the hobby. You have to make the best decision for yourself. Many people are biased and it angers them that people do not like or buy what they recommend (ie: Savage vs Revo). So, try to decipher what is biased and what is not, who knows and who does not, and then balance it out in your head and figure out what is best for you. Only you can answer that, and after all, it is your cash. Spend it wisely as this hobby is not cheap.
Last edited by nitrokings; 12-27-2010 at 07:18 PM.
12-27-2010, 07:00 PM
#2
Tech Regular
I already read that on the site you copied it from. Can't remember the address.
12-27-2010, 10:27 PM
#3
Tech Apprentice
12-28-2010, 05:58 AM
#4
12-28-2010, 08:24 PM
#7
12-30-2010, 09:34 PM
#9
Tech Apprentice
reply to post that the post was not his work at 03:00 AM
he edited his post at 03:18 AM what did he change???
well the only thing in the post that isn't a direct copy is the top line.
i'd say he's busted
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