3LikesHelion Avenge MT
12-04-2017, 01:42 PM
#1
Helion Avenge MT
Does anyone know about this MT?
https://www.hobbytown.com/avenge-10m...ns1501/p720320
I know that Hobby Town is the disturber of the Helion brand in the US, but I thought Helion was a "clone brand", that just sold "rebranded" other designs, sorta like REDCAT Racing.
This looks different. Metal A/B/C/D blocks, nice powertrain setup. Looks like a clean sheet design?
I thought Helion was a Firelands/Gil Losi brand? If so, is this a first design directly from them?
https://www.hobbytown.com/avenge-10m...ns1501/p720320
I know that Hobby Town is the disturber of the Helion brand in the US, but I thought Helion was a "clone brand", that just sold "rebranded" other designs, sorta like REDCAT Racing.
This looks different. Metal A/B/C/D blocks, nice powertrain setup. Looks like a clean sheet design?
I thought Helion was a Firelands/Gil Losi brand? If so, is this a first design directly from them?
12-04-2017, 01:58 PM
#2
Wow. Zero shame about those ripoff Pro-Line Trenchers. They even glued them onto ripoff Pro-Line F-11 wheels.
The chassis looks very similar to a Traxxas 4Pede, with just enough modification to prevent a lawsuit from Traxxas, and the bumper looks very similar to a Traxxas Summit bumper, again with just enough modification to prevent a lawsuit from Traxxas.
So basically, you should just buy a Traxxas 4Pede and put Pro-Line Trencher tires on it, like I did:
As a bonus, you know there will be spare parts available forever.
The chassis looks very similar to a Traxxas 4Pede, with just enough modification to prevent a lawsuit from Traxxas, and the bumper looks very similar to a Traxxas Summit bumper, again with just enough modification to prevent a lawsuit from Traxxas.
So basically, you should just buy a Traxxas 4Pede and put Pro-Line Trencher tires on it, like I did:
As a bonus, you know there will be spare parts available forever.
Last edited by fyrstormer; 12-04-2017 at 02:41 PM.
12-04-2017, 05:06 PM
#3
Team Redcat TR-MT10E would also make a good choice. Vas did a review of the Team Magic E5 HX(Team Magic is the OEM for Team Redcat) and he said it was his favorite 1/10 4wd monster truck. Out of the box it has standard parts that are optional upgrades on the Stampede 4x4 and at a lower price.https://youtu.be/fdIH--sv5ek
12-04-2017, 09:21 PM
#4
For a basic basher truck like this, I really think spare parts availability is more important than anything else. In a market where products routinely vanish without warning and are never seen again, Traxxas distinguishes itself by still offering parts support for every vehicle they've ever sold. You can still build a Traxxas SRT from the early 90's from spare parts if you can find the parts list.
12-05-2017, 04:31 AM
#5
Tech Fanatic
For a basic basher truck like this, I really think spare parts availability is more important than anything else. In a market where products routinely vanish without warning and are never seen again, Traxxas distinguishes itself by still offering parts support for every vehicle they've ever sold. You can still build a Traxxas SRT from the early 90's from spare parts if you can find the parts list.
12-05-2017, 12:40 PM
#6
Traxxas sued Hobbico because of the Arrma Nero's design because US law allows it, and lawyers get paid to help people (and companies) take advantage of everything the law allows. I'm not going to get into an ethics debate about the decision to sue Hobbico, because the decision wasn't based on ethics, it was based on the potential for profit. The last ethics decision involved in that process was made back when US patent law was written.
I'm also not going to get into a fanboy argument about brand loyalty. I like some Traxxas vehicles and not others; to the extent I appreciate the Traxxas *brand*, it is purely because of what I said about spare-parts availability, not because I think they're an inherently awesome company. Their business decision to make spare parts available for decades after a vehicle is discontinued suits my personal interests; if they stopped doing that I would stop buying their products.
I'm also not going to get into a fanboy argument about brand loyalty. I like some Traxxas vehicles and not others; to the extent I appreciate the Traxxas *brand*, it is purely because of what I said about spare-parts availability, not because I think they're an inherently awesome company. Their business decision to make spare parts available for decades after a vehicle is discontinued suits my personal interests; if they stopped doing that I would stop buying their products.
12-05-2017, 02:39 PM
#7
Many RC cars look similar in design. It's just what happens when a company finds a design that consumers want. As for proline wheels and rims, I'm pretty sure most companies are guilty of copying treads. Look at the new Arrma outcast which comes with basically badlands.... but not real badlands.
I never heard of helion being a rebranded car maker. The select four stuff with the alum parts seems to be it's own design.
I never heard of helion being a rebranded car maker. The select four stuff with the alum parts seems to be it's own design.
12-05-2017, 05:02 PM
#8
Tech Fanatic
Traxxas sued Hobbico because of the Arrma Nero's design because US law allows it, and lawyers get paid to help people (and companies) take advantage of everything the law allows. I'm not going to get into an ethics debate about the decision to sue Hobbico, because the decision wasn't based on ethics, it was based on the potential for profit. The last ethics decision involved in that process was made back when US patent law was written.
I'm also not going to get into a fanboy argument about brand loyalty. I like some Traxxas vehicles and not others; to the extent I appreciate the Traxxas *brand*, it is purely because of what I said about spare-parts availability, not because I think they're an inherently awesome company. Their business decision to make spare parts available for decades after a vehicle is discontinued suits my personal interests; if they stopped doing that I would stop buying their products.
I'm also not going to get into a fanboy argument about brand loyalty. I like some Traxxas vehicles and not others; to the extent I appreciate the Traxxas *brand*, it is purely because of what I said about spare-parts availability, not because I think they're an inherently awesome company. Their business decision to make spare parts available for decades after a vehicle is discontinued suits my personal interests; if they stopped doing that I would stop buying their products.
12-05-2017, 05:40 PM
#9
Many RC cars look similar in design. It's just what happens when a company finds a design that consumers want. As for proline wheels and rims, I'm pretty sure most companies are guilty of copying treads. Look at the new Arrma outcast which comes with basically badlands.... but not real badlands.
I never heard of helion being a rebranded car maker. The select four stuff with the alum parts seems to be it's own design.
I never heard of helion being a rebranded car maker. The select four stuff with the alum parts seems to be it's own design.
The Helion Select Four 10TR and Vkar Racing Bison come from the same OEM, just have different electronics package. I think there are a few other Helion vehicles that this applies to as well, I just can't remember off the top of my head.
12-05-2017, 09:57 PM
#10
That's all fine and well, I get that the law allows it. It's just that Traxxas is the only RC company I know of that's taking another RC company to court. It ruins my RC experience when Arrma quits selling a brand new vehicle that I just dropped a lot of coin on. The Nero is not even close to being a Revo. The only reason people compare the two is because of the lay down shocks. Hell, the chassis is TVP's, nothing like a Revo.
I agree the vehicles have many different design elements, but Arrma has made no secret of targeting the exact market niches already occupied by Traxxas' flagship vehicles. The Nero may have many different design elements than the Revo, but it is conceptually the same, much like the Nero Big Rock is conceptually the same as the Summit. Arrma put Traxxas on notice and Traxxas responded. Ethical? Dunno. But like I said before, it wasn't an ethics decision for Traxxas to sue Arrma.
Also, the Arrma Nero is still for sale.
12-05-2017, 09:58 PM
#11
Agreed. It's almost impossible to avoid using tried and true tread patterns. People want what works. A Chevron tread by any other name is still basically the old school agricultural tractor tread design. It's proven and has stood the test of time. No need to reinvent the wheel (pun intended!).
12-06-2017, 05:11 AM
#12
FYI, the Nero isn't currently for sale via the OEM (Hobbico and in turn, Tower Hobbies) for the last several months. The attached screen shot was taken 12/06/2017 for reference.
While it may be for sale with independent Hobby Stores, the lawsuit currently prohibits the "direct sale by the OEM", but these can still be purchased "indirectly" by a 3rd party entity.
Even our hobby and like you already said, these lawsuits take place often with US based companies for all sorts of different reasons.
You can read the entire Amended Complaint here: https://www.scribd.com/document/3200...ded-Complaint#
This has been going on for about a year and half now with no resolution in sight.
While it may be for sale with independent Hobby Stores, the lawsuit currently prohibits the "direct sale by the OEM", but these can still be purchased "indirectly" by a 3rd party entity.
Even our hobby and like you already said, these lawsuits take place often with US based companies for all sorts of different reasons.
You can read the entire Amended Complaint here: https://www.scribd.com/document/3200...ded-Complaint#
This has been going on for about a year and half now with no resolution in sight.
12-06-2017, 02:56 PM
#13
The wheels and tires on the Avenge MT reproduce the design of the Pro-Line F11 wheels and Trencher tires to a level of detail beyond what is necessary to merely provide traction. We all know a simple round- or square-pin tread design will do just fine for a dirt-and-grass basher truck. They definitely ripped off a popular design to make their product look more attractive. It's essentially the RC equivalent of putting the Coach logo on a cheap purse to make it look fancier. Is it wrong? I don't personally care, it's not my fight, I'm just giving credit where credit is due. The only thing *I'm* concerned about is this truck will probably evaporate in a year or two, leaving anyone who owns one in a tough spot if they need to replace parts. Better support is one of the things you pay for when you buy name-brand merchandise.
12-06-2017, 06:18 PM
#14
I still stand behind my Team Redcat decision. Parts availability of a vehicle should never be the main selling point, out of box durability should be.
You would have to spend at the very least $200 on top of the $399.99 base price for a Stampede 4x4 VXL to match the out of the box durability of the TR-MT10E which is $299.99. This is Traxxas biggest problem, they charge you an absurdly high price for their vehicles, which are all made almost entirely out of plastic, then you have to spend upwards of twice the cost of the vehicle to make it bashworthy.
Just because everyone carries Traxxas parts doesn't mean your lhs will have them in stock. Every time I have needed something for my Summit from my LHS I get the "oh we are all out, we can have it here next Thursday". Or I can order it online and have it here in 3 days. Either way I'm waiting on parts.
I would not get a Helion, most of their stuff is kind of iffy on quality, there is not much info on them and like fyrstormer said, it will probably be discontinued next year.
And about the Traxxas lawsuit I'm going to quote Jerry-Rigged.
You would have to spend at the very least $200 on top of the $399.99 base price for a Stampede 4x4 VXL to match the out of the box durability of the TR-MT10E which is $299.99. This is Traxxas biggest problem, they charge you an absurdly high price for their vehicles, which are all made almost entirely out of plastic, then you have to spend upwards of twice the cost of the vehicle to make it bashworthy.
Just because everyone carries Traxxas parts doesn't mean your lhs will have them in stock. Every time I have needed something for my Summit from my LHS I get the "oh we are all out, we can have it here next Thursday". Or I can order it online and have it here in 3 days. Either way I'm waiting on parts.
I would not get a Helion, most of their stuff is kind of iffy on quality, there is not much info on them and like fyrstormer said, it will probably be discontinued next year.
And about the Traxxas lawsuit I'm going to quote Jerry-Rigged.
Originally Posted by Jerry-rigged
From the link -
"The ’886 Patent claims an “ornamental design for a vehicle mounted coil spring and shock assembly, as shown and described,”
(how are they ornamental when the body is covering them?)
“Integrated Center Point Steering Mechanism for a Model Vehicle,” - i.e. the servo saver.
“Protective Enclosure for Model Vehicle,” i.e., the radio box
“Vehicle Suspension for a Model Vehicle,” i.e. the canilever
And for the Drones, (same lawsuit)
“Rotorcraft With Integrated Light Pipe Support Members,”
Also, I found this paragraph interesting -
"In the eye of an ordinary observer, giving such attention as a purchaser usually gives, the design of the vehicle-mounted coil spring and shock assembly in the Arrma Accused Products is substantially the same as the design claimed by the ’886 Patent. The resemblance is such as to deceive such an observer, inducing him to purchase one supposing it to be the other. " (emphasis added by me)
So in other words, if I walk into the hobbyshop and see an Erevo and a Nero, I will notice they both have horizontal shocks, but will not notice the Erevo looks like a plastic-craptastic, and the Nero looks quality. All I see is the shocks, plus the Nero is cheaper, so I buy the Nero.
This is worth repeating. In bold. All caps. Big font.
TRAXXAS THINKS THEIR BUYERS CANNOT TELL THE DEFERENCE BETWEEN THE NERO AND THE E-REVO.
Way to insult your consumers, Traxxas. You are losing sales because we CAN tell the difference.
"The ’886 Patent claims an “ornamental design for a vehicle mounted coil spring and shock assembly, as shown and described,”
(how are they ornamental when the body is covering them?)
“Integrated Center Point Steering Mechanism for a Model Vehicle,” - i.e. the servo saver.
“Protective Enclosure for Model Vehicle,” i.e., the radio box
“Vehicle Suspension for a Model Vehicle,” i.e. the canilever
And for the Drones, (same lawsuit)
“Rotorcraft With Integrated Light Pipe Support Members,”
Also, I found this paragraph interesting -
"In the eye of an ordinary observer, giving such attention as a purchaser usually gives, the design of the vehicle-mounted coil spring and shock assembly in the Arrma Accused Products is substantially the same as the design claimed by the ’886 Patent. The resemblance is such as to deceive such an observer, inducing him to purchase one supposing it to be the other. " (emphasis added by me)
So in other words, if I walk into the hobbyshop and see an Erevo and a Nero, I will notice they both have horizontal shocks, but will not notice the Erevo looks like a plastic-craptastic, and the Nero looks quality. All I see is the shocks, plus the Nero is cheaper, so I buy the Nero.
This is worth repeating. In bold. All caps. Big font.
TRAXXAS THINKS THEIR BUYERS CANNOT TELL THE DEFERENCE BETWEEN THE NERO AND THE E-REVO.
Way to insult your consumers, Traxxas. You are losing sales because we CAN tell the difference.
Last edited by slick2500; 12-06-2017 at 07:32 PM.
12-08-2017, 07:08 AM
#15
Tech Regular
The stampede 4x4 is inferior to this rip off. Traxxas is too old, their parts are too weak to handle the modern brushless setups and bashing that comes with it.