GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

Neil - While I have not had problems with my Novak SS, there have been plenty of truck guys that have. Mostly motor shaft problems, a few ESC problems. Novak claims that we have a very high failure rate here at Marcca. I think it may just be the abuse from the concrete. Hopefully sedans will be much less abusive on the system.

Celt - But set on open mode I would think that we would be back to battery wars. That's why I like the idea of the stock setting on the ESC, it limits both acceleration AND top speed. So no matter how good your battery is, everybody would basically have the exact same powerband.

You'd best bring your A game Sunday boiy

celt

iTrader: (5)

GordonFreeman,

We are talking about the same notion...the stock version of the Noval brushless system (SS4300, you have the SS5800), even in unlimited mode, replicates a 27 turn stock motor. The point being that without that "limiting" function, there is no artificial flatspot you get with the SS5800 in "limited" mode.

I've driven two of these systems in unlimited mode and they feel like, to me anyway, a new, well tuned, stock motor. I've yet to try one in "limited" mode.

There are a couple of people at MARCCA that have them - give it a try, very smooth. I thought to myself, why would Novak market such a strange product - a slower, less powerful brushless system and charge the same price?

It's possible that this is the very niche they were looking to cover - a consistent, stock class motor that has the benefits of being virtually maintenence free.

I'm pretty certain that even in "unlimited" mode, the Novak SS4300 (not the SS5800) performs similar to a 27 turn stock motor. Seems to be what we are looking for.

futureal

I have both systems. The 4300 is not faster than a 27T stock, but has much more torque and corner "launch" in it. A good driver with a 4300 should always be able to beat the same driver with a 27T. Racing at The Den, I was pulling laps off that were .2-.3 sec faster than the next best guy, and my car wasn't set up for the track at all. As much as I'd like to say it was my driving, it wasn't!

Anyway, I'd try running a brushless with you guys anyway, except it doesn't sound like the club wants me any more...

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

Yea, it may be that since the motor is less powerful that IT (the motor) ends up being the limiting factor, not your super battery. In which case running it in open mode may very well make good spec racing.

I suppose we could use one of my average joe batteries, run some laps, take somebodies super battery run some lap and see if there is any difference.

FIRE RIDER

iTrader: (1)

wish i had a sedan

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

Monday, we tried to do some "Novak Spec" racing. Some of us have SS5800 and we put it in stock mode. We used the same pinions and rubber tires.

Back straight was awesome! There was no discerable differance in acceleration or top speed!

The only problem (and it was limited to me) was that my speed control would overheat and kick out. Later I put in a very low pinion and put it back in open and it actually seemed to run cooler.

I'm goin' to look for a 4300 right now. I think there is potential here to have some awesome spec racing!

futureal

Foam tires?

If so, I'd totally be up for that with the 4300.

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

We were actually leaning toward rubber. We also definitely noticed less fuzzies on the car with rubber vs. foam. Also, rubber is less maintainance and lasts longer, no ride height changes.

We were kind of trying to shoot for the easiest, cheapest way to get to a spec racing type of thing.

Who knows, I'm just glad that we are talking about it realistically again!

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

I think I'm done with foams.

Novak 4300 ordered from Tower. I know Celt will be in. We just need one more to make a class.

or....we could just run with the stock guys....naw....that wouldn't be fair.

futureal

If it's rubber, count me out. I do have a 4300 though.

Honestly, I would be running at marcca more often if there were people running foam. I can't see myself gluing up Sorex tires every few weeks any more to compete with the fastest guys, and I haven't seen anybody making the Take Offs work reliably. Running foam would be so much cheaper but no one seems to want to listen.

So, oh well...

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking for the cheapest maintanace free way to do some even racing. I guess I don't know one way or the other. But so far this is my experiance with foam vs rubber.


Upside of foam:

1. Stickier (While it's kind of fun to go ballistically fast, I am looking for more of a spec type thing still)

Downside of foam:

1. one set lasted me 8 weeks. (seems short) that means about $20/month for tires

2. Wear seems to be uneven, front to back, side to side. While I always try to adjust to camber to make them wear flat, the speed at which they wear is so high that it seems you constantly have to rotate them (or true them) to maintain the same size. That also effects the car set-up/ride height.

3. Dirt/Carpet fuzz. About 10 times the amount of clean up afterwards.

4. They chunk.

I have not done much sedan rubber tire racing, so I don't know what the top guys are doing. But it sure seems simpler.

1. They don't seem to wear or wear out (minimal set-up changes).

2. They don't attract all the carpet fuzz like foams.

Again, I can't speak too intelligently from both sides, because I haven't done enough time on rubber, but the rubber tires I do have still have a visible mold split line on them.

I guess I don't have a real big problem using foam, if we all get on the same page. I would like to race with the top guys, but I am not willing to cut comms every race and get new tires every other week.

Maybe by using the 4300, the foam would last longer than I am thinking it might.

All you have to do to convince me is to show me some numbers that makes the overall experience cheaper, easier and closer to spec and I'm in on it.

For instance, the Novak is a no brainer:

1. Novak system $230. No maintanance

Old tech Brushed system:
One top guy at the track has at least three motors, lathe, ect.

1. Top competitive stock motor $35x3 = $105
2. Lathe $150
3. Diamond bit $60
4. Wasting my time turning comms, tuning springs, ect.

These items alone are $315! Plus I have all the maintainance! Like I said, Novak Brushless is a no brainer.

If foams are a no brainer, I'm all for it. My experiance with them has been less than thrilling though.

futureal

The cost of one versus the other may differ from person to person, especially based on how much equipment they have. For example, I own a tire truer and a lathe, and so on. You actually forgot the cost of the ESC in your brushed setup.

I like Novak's system in some ways but hate it in others. For one, at the highest levels, it makes battery voltage an even bigger factor; I ran brushless at the Novak race and with the same motor and gearing, Charlie Suangka (Novak employee) could catch about 8-10 car lengths on me in the straightaway. So much for the "everything is equal" myth that keeps getting tossed around with brushless systems!

A brushed motor requires maintenance, but it also means that to be fast, you have to know your stuff and put in the work, not *just* have the fastest batteries. I've seen guys with 1.16 cells beat guys with 1.18 cells because they tuned their *handout* motors better and their cars better. I really like that aspect of it.

As for rubber versus foam, here we go:

Eight weeks of racing is actually pretty good. Suppose you have 3 top racers running rubber (say, John, Vue and Jeff). They all put on brand new sets of rubber tires on week 1. If John puts on a new set in week 3, he will be .2-.3/sec a lap faster than Vue and Jeff, all else being equal. Then if Jeff puts on a new set a week later, it forces Vue to either put on a new set the next week or hope that Jeff and John make mistakes and the extra tenths don't matter.

If you could convince all of the racers that they had to use the same set for a particular number of weeks then you'd be a bit better. But when they all know that a new set will give them an advantage, you can't stop them -- that's just how racing is, at any level. At a big race you'll see novice guys putting on new sets of rubber tires because they know they are faster.

With foam tires, you start them around 2.30" and skim about .01-.02 off of them each week to keep them true. You should be able to be just as competitive for 8 weeks as you would with new tires. This, to me, is a HUGE positive for foam.

See above. Re-true the tires every week or two and they will be perfectly fine. In fact, it's like having a new set of tires!

I hate to be the one to say it (at the risk of being voted out of the club again, haha) but the carpet at MARCCA is an absolute JOKE. It is full of fuzz because it has been abused for years. Foam tires don't at all make a car more dirty on any normal racing surface; because our carpet is self destructing, it picks up the fiber and shoots it back onto your rear drive axles and such. Usually we use zippo lighter fluid to clean off the foam tires after a run and it works very well (it's a degreasing agent). It also helps keep them "sticky" for the track.

I very, very, very rarely have chunked foam tires, even at MARCCA. If you can run 5 minutes clean, or close to it, you shouldn't be chunking tires; I'll be the first to admit that foam tires are not for novices, nor should they be.

On rubber tires:

If you're not seeing them wear out it means you're probably not yet at the point where a couple tenths of a second make a huge difference on lap times (and this is not at all meant as a knock on you) . I could run my rubbers for weeks on end at the Sportsman and middle-stock level, but when I started getting to where I could run a clean 5 minute race with no crashes, they make a big, big difference.

I can go out there with an old set of Sorex tires, but I WILL be slower than others with newer tires. It's a sad fact.

If our carpet didn't suck so much, we might be able to get away with running the pre-mounted Take Off 27s and have no traction issues. But right now building a good set of racing rubber tires is going to cost you $40-$45, while a new set of foams will cost you $32-$34. Plus it is about 800 times easier to true a set of tires than it is to mount a set of rubbers.

On owning a truer: there ar truers available for under $200 that will last a long, long time and -- *I* think -- save you money in the long run. Big time. If not, there are plenty of people (like myself) who are happy to bring a truer to the track and let others use it, or even true tires for you.

And then there's another reason: 90%+ of the national-level indoor races run on foam tires. I am going to the Carpet Nationals next week, so I couldn't race at MARCCA for the past few weeks because it's a totally different type of racing. I don't see why we are hanging on to a form of racing that is, at the moment, not very popular. Once again, that is just my opinion and certainly not shared by everybody.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. The real answer is always going to be "what is best for you" although I encourage trying foams out for a longer period. Being able to drive and set up both a foam car and a rubber car will certainly make you a better driver!

celt

iTrader: (5)

regarding last comments by Gordonfreemen and Futureal:

Interesting comments from both of you in that one is a commentary on what we would like to see and one is commentary on the reality of competetive racing. I can't see fault in what either of you are saying.

However, with regards to racing at MARCCA, a few drivers understand the level of competition and have expressed the desire for a competitive class while reducing the cost where it remains sensible. I mean, I agree with Futureal, in that at a national level, these kinds of ideas might not fly. These guys are serious, in some cases, it's their livelihood. At MARCCA, that's not really the case. I've talked to the top drivers regarding this subject and for the most part they seem interested.

Columbo has such a healthy attitude - he runs things into the ground, tires down to the liners, a chassis so beat up it's almost hard to recognize what it is. Yet, I haven't seen him lose to many races! Again, we aren't talking the national level, just a few people that want to enjoy even competition, more cost effectively. Wouldn't work everywhere, but at MARCAA it just might.

So, I'll spend eighty bucks on a 4300 and see where it goes. That motor will outlast a handfull of brushed stock motors so I figure it's money well spent.

better days...

Neil

Novak 4300. I have been looking for an excuse to buy one of those systems.

celt

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, I'm just going for the motor for $80.00 and swap out the 5800 - same esc...