billwilliams217

iTrader: (1)

I agree, I love stock racing when there was not such disparity between equipment. Are you sure you mean to say the discussion as in talking about it has ruined stock racing? I also loved super stock, but it went blinky too. I don't agree with it and at my tracks, you buy it, you can use it.

We have sold over 20 cars which have that brushless 3300 or 3000 KV motors, I have to let them run in Beginners, then I have to have a class where they can continue, it will NOT be 17.5 buggy, it will be some novice class. I am going to require a 17.5 in 17.5 class, but as far as chasing people around and tech inspecting for timing, seems silly, because we all know driving and decisions are the real factors, but there are plenty of kids who are learning and they read, they are on the internet, and they don't always have time and extra money to blow, some buy ESC's which have timing in them.

If I say buy this ESC, then tell them they can't use it, WTF, is the response I get. I'm trying to WELCOME new people, INVITE new blood, get people to go from practice to the racetrack.

If this policy/rule or lack of one threatens the sanctity of ROAR or some practice of the "perfected" the stock class here in the midwest, sorry...

If you want to run blinky, go ahead, there's no rule against it. If and when an effective solution comes, I will be the first to adopt it. For me the best but not perfect solution is to ALLOW people to race what they buy in 17.5.

A few minutes ago I copied this from the ROAR website.

"ROAR does not manage races below the National level (Level 5), but it does sanction races from the club level to Multi-Regional Championships. All ROAR members in current and good standing are eligible to enter these races."

I've been to 2-3 ROAR races, held one, they were okay, but not worth losing your common sense over.

Let's back up a moment, higher level stock racing is very competitive, because there are many people who want to compete, but can't go up against professional racers, some people do other things beyond drive a RC car 24/7. That's okay, those people and the beginners PAY the way for the PRO racers through their support of the hobby/sport.

Pro Racers are not going to compete in 17.5. Most of their sponsors will tell them to stay out. So it leaves another level for the serious racer who is not pro. So at the club level, the NON ROAR events, why not allow these people to compete to the best of their ability and use the products widely available? What is unfair about that?

We have new racers every event so far, people who have never signed in a race. One bumped out of beginner last night, we have a few of those drivers who are getting fast, we went from having nobody show up to looking pretty good on turnout, with NEW racers. They are competitors, they are kids having fun, they are sportsmen, they are female, they are all welcome.

Soon I will have a stepping stone class for them, when they leave beginners, I will have a NOVICE class in the next couple weeks so they don't have to go to stock buggy, not yet, there needs to be a place to race and learn more between real beginners and 2-wheel stock. We will make that NOVICE.

I have read every post here, and I am still looking for a reason to go blinky, a real and logical one. A reason which will explain to a customer, you can't use the features of the ESC you just purchased, and by the way, you will have to melt your motors, and keep buying high C batteries if you want to compete for real.

David Alberico

iTrader: (13)

You can pretty much see the cars that have the advance timing, they look like modified buggies, easy to spot. I dont think you need to tech all the cars, fastlane doesnt, topeka doesnt. Heck I think even if there were a blushless motor that wasnt 17.5 but it looked the same, who cares. Bill I think you have done a great job buildibg tracks where power doesnt win, the driver does. But you will always have those that are like oh, open timing and they crash every lap. I know how you feel about blinky mode but it almost seems the stock rule should be if you controller isnt on the roar list you can race, if your car is rtr stock, so be it but we discourage adding timing in your "stock" system

billwilliams217

iTrader: (1)

No it is not an open class, it requires a 17.5 motor. We have even kicked out the 13.5 RTR cars, even though they are not really smooth enough to really compete, power delivery is too abrupt.

I will be posting RULES shortly. Sometime this week when the new website is done and the name is changed. However, the rules will be simple and FAIR.

Part of the wait for the rules was due to knowing the turnout, and when it was very low, there was no need to beat people up with rules, I just wanted them to come and have a good time.

Part of the resistance to ESC timing comes from those who have perfected the blinky mode, they do not want other drivers to be the same speed as they are.

Other support must come from ROAR and the manufacturers they TAP DANCE for, making this rule and allowing the stock class to get so screwed up in the first place is something only a committee could do.

Vegatron75

iTrader: (4)

I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I'll add my 2 cents worth.

I'd say split the group by skill level, forget all the tech stuff and focus on what really matters, drivers skill.

Kids in one group and adults in another, if the adults are that far off the pace they get stuck in the kid class.

Not really sure why anyone would want to run a stock or SS motor, unless you can't control the faster motors.

If you've been at this for years and you're still running the slower classes, something is wrong...

billwilliams217

iTrader: (1)

David, If ROAR wanted to have a REAL stock class, shouldn't they promote a wider BASE difference between STOCK and MOD, instead of having motors so close in potential that they overlap? 2014 ROAR stock, a NEW 22.5 motor, let all the manufacturers make a 22.5 and actually slow the stock cars instead of playing all these nonsense games.

But allow the use of ESC timing, we ALL can get better performance at cooler temps with dynamic timing in the ESC, and SPEND LESS.

billwilliams217

iTrader: (1)

You are right, there needs to be another way to group, and we will be adding a Novice class very soon. This discussion really revolves around the most competitive class in R/C buggy stock. More competitive based on driver involvement numbers. One may argue it is SCT or Slash which we all must be thankful to TRAXXAS for the introductory super truck!

I do keep the track technical so motors matter less than driving, but this is still a worthwhile discussion.

David Alberico

iTrader: (13)

I agree with you. I remember though there was a controller that added a ton of timing and it was like 400 then many manufacures followed. I remeber doing it and I was like holy cow this motor is fast. So roar eliminated the timing and now you have 100 dallor + motors....dumb imo. A lot of guys dont agree with roar but it is what we have. But like ibsaid before if you build tracks like you have I dont see how timing will benefit anyone...aand I mean that in a positive way.

RCPlains

"Part of the resistance to ESC timing comes from those who have perfected the blinky mode, they do not want other drivers to be the same speed as they are." - Bill Williams.

This is so true!...I played the stock game in Topeka and never seemed fast enough to keep up with the other "stock blinky" buggies that run there...then i switched brands & put one on the track built by a Topeka Techie...and Presto!...plenty of speed on the Topeka track! (Adding a little boost to my ESC would have been so much easier (and cheaper!) than investing in a new buggy!)

With my current setup (still running in Blinky Mode) I have just as much speed as the boosted 17.5's on Bill's track. If Bill were to go with the Blinky rule, I feel I would have a definite advantage speed wise (of course, I'd probably still be in the C Main).

So, imo, either the Topeka Techie has the Blinky Mode figured out or Kyosho has a faster drivetrain, either way, it would appear to give me an unfair speed advantage if Bill were to go to "Blinky Mode" rules...let "Boost" rule the roost! (Any advantage I have speed-wise now is easily offset by those I'm racing against just by adding a little boost!)

PS - 2 stock motors burnt up in Topeka this year racing in Blinky Mode. I've heard the loud "ROAR" of the Blinky Mode arguments for several years now, but the fact is, from my observation & personal experience, it is more expensive to compete in "Blinky Mode" stock than modified. The end result is the exact opposite of their stated purpose to keep costs down for the sportsman racer. I do not have the skills to compete in Mod so on a Blinky Mode only track I'm forced to spend the extra bucks to try and stay "almost as fast" as the fast guys in Blinky Mode stock.

At the Topeka track, there's evidently lots of people that have "perfected" the blinky mode...amazing the speed they're getting out of their box stock 17.5's...motors are never checked so who knows?...whereas at Bill's track, go ahead & cheat...i'll just turn up my boost...

David Alberico

iTrader: (13)

I agree. I don't have anything special done to my sons car, he runs an older Novak motor and I can see some areas where he is beat speed and punch wise (slightly). I went through the same thing growing up, my dad told me that if I ran a perfect race day, I didn't crash, I didn't have wide turns or anything and it seemed I was losing because of motor then he would step up the batteries and motors, so I worked and the that was the path I went. My son will take the same path, blinky or boost. I think that is lost in stock racing, if you have not yet homed in your skills to race at the top then making your car faster on the straight is the wrong direction, gear down and work on your driving and your lines, when you have run a perfect race, made no mistakes and your were beat by 2 seconds then you should look at more power.

RCmayor

iTrader: (9)

hog wash. lol

RCPlains

I hear what you're saying but from my standpoint I think you may be forgetting that...we all have certain God-given abilities. No amount of practice is going to put me on the same level of driving ability as you, David...or my son...or a lot of other racers out there. Probably your son is able to make up for his lack of speed & punch with some real good driving ability. For me & I think probably some others, it's not going to happen...just don't have the reflexes or eye-hand coordination.

IMO, you have to be a certain amount competitive to have any fun and stay active in racing. People who can't compete in the lower mains usually drop out. Competitive for me in the buggy class is finishing above last in the C Main or maybe once in a while even breaking through to the B Main. For me to be competitive in C Main my buggy needs to be as fast or close to as fast as the TQ...if it's not, I've got no chance to compete...speed makes up for a multitude of driving errors.

Like Bill said, some drivers "have perfected the blinky mode"...in my experience, it's much easier & CHEAPER! to turn up my boost than to throw money at different motor, gearing, & high C battery combinations to try & match the speed of those who have the blinky mode figured out...just considering the cost of burnt up motors alone.

billwilliams217

iTrader: (1)

I appreciate this being a discussion and not a finger pointing pissing match. Personally I believe the most important factor is driving skill in areas which are not related to speed or burst type power. As you get towards the top of the class, the burst/punch starts becoming a greater factor as well as top speed.

RCPlains story has been experienced too many times, that is why until I have a better solution, we will allow timing from the ESC also. Generally my tracks don't favor having too much motor, it is not a big advantage either way.

Let's choose diversity, some tracks have a blinky rule, others don't. No big deal....

chensleyrc1

iTrader: (38)

You know there is problem with blinky when a driver that is sponsored by a motor manufacturer uses a different manufacturers motor at a big race and picks up a lap. My biggest complaint about blinky is in on-road some cars are getting close to a 1:1 gear ratio. And yes, in blinky you gear it until it blows up, then buy new motor and gear down two teeth, lol.

RCPlains

Exactly! I've found a big variation in speed between various brands of 17.5's...

So if we really want everyone in stock to be the same speed, we all need to run the same brand of motor (closed can, no tampering with internals allowed), same winds in motor, same gearing, same brand of buggy, same shocks, same oil in your shocks, same tires, same ESC, same radio, same battery, same body, same wing, etc.

All of these things can and do make a difference in the speed of your vehicle...and yet ROAR singles out one thing as illegal, boost!...something that most everyone has available on their ESC's & yet can't use...something that gives your buggy more speed at lower motor temps...more speed = more fun...lower motor temps = longer motor life...it just doesn't seem logical...(I've never bought into the "slower is faster" argument...slower never worked for me...after a couple of trips around the patch i think we all can figure out that speed at certain places on the track will put you into the wall and speed at other places will help your lap times...if i'm as fast as the fast guy that's got a lap and a half on me and he finally makes that one mistake he's gonna make the whole race, it gives me a chance to make up a little time & finish maybe 1 to 2 laps down instead of getting totally hammered by 3 or 4 laps.)

And for those that can't handle the speed of a boosted 17.5? RCR MS will have a novice class as a stepping stone between beginner & stock class...

David Alberico

iTrader: (13)

Believe it or not, my talent in this is very limited. I started when I was 8 with a tamya hornet, then a jrx2 and I was at the back of the pack and lower mains, I just stuck with it, begged to go to the track day after day to practice the a hobbyshop owner offered to train me, the same as he did with the current j-concepts ceo, and with cones and a lot of time I worked my way up. It is always true that many try something and give it up because they were not good at it, that will always happen. My problem with boost is that 50 degrees of timing makes it look like a mod motor, you might as well do what rc pro did in nitro and have sportsman and pro class. Then you have guys that will crank up the timing, and actually turn slower.

I see why roar decided to outlaw boost, bu now you have the 100 dollar stock motor...so now what?