2013 Winter Indoor Nationals - Feb 9-10 @Smac Trac - St. Louis, MO
01-18-2013, 01:46 PM
#61
I see ROAR made the D3.5 17.5 Motor illegal. will it be ilegal for this race.
01-18-2013, 05:20 PM
#63
Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie
Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
Email: [email protected]
www.teamtrinity.com
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc. and TRC
01-18-2013, 06:29 PM
#64
Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie
Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
Email: [email protected]
www.teamtrinity.com
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc. and TRC
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie
Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
Email: [email protected]
www.teamtrinity.com
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc. and TRC
01-18-2013, 07:12 PM
#65
I do not believe that ROAR rules are enforced at this race, because there is no tech process. If they were to just pick out people with the D3.5....there would be lots of protesting.
01-18-2013, 08:12 PM
#67
01-21-2013, 08:34 AM
#68
The Trinity motor is legal per Jason at JConcepts.
01-21-2013, 08:55 AM
#69
01-21-2013, 06:15 PM
#71
For out of town visitors to SMAC that need parts support, there is Blaze RC next to track.
Mike should have almost anything you will need available, he is set up with all the major MFRs and caters to the racers. If you want to check if something is in stock or pre-order your tires, wheels, tire foams, lipos, motors, ESC, Tx, Rx, Oils, Avid bearing kits, B-fast kits, Techno kits. He can get whatever you could need. Also if you need the parts ASAP, shipping can be faster since its from a regional location.
Like Blaze RC on Facebook and PM through FB or
Email him at [email protected]
Mike should have almost anything you will need available, he is set up with all the major MFRs and caters to the racers. If you want to check if something is in stock or pre-order your tires, wheels, tire foams, lipos, motors, ESC, Tx, Rx, Oils, Avid bearing kits, B-fast kits, Techno kits. He can get whatever you could need. Also if you need the parts ASAP, shipping can be faster since its from a regional location.
Like Blaze RC on Facebook and PM through FB or
Email him at [email protected]
01-23-2013, 07:29 PM
#72
Boycott the Club Race on Friday Night!!
This is very sad! I was told last year at the JC race by the track owner, Scott, and this year by Rod Rippee that they saw the error of their ways and would not have a club race on Friday night thus allowing for more practice time.
All I can say is I'm very disappointed and I was lied to, this is very dis-heartening.
We are paying big bucks here and having our practice time limited by what seems like a greed for more money. As I stated last year to Scott about the club race, "you charged me more money and I got 10 to 15 minutes of additional practice during the club race, it would be much better just to have open practice and let us practice" Scott agreed with me and told me we would not have a club race next year, and I thanked him for his decision.
Sorry to put a downer on this, but this sucks. We paid racers should have the track to ourselves and be able to practice as long as possible for a big race like this.
Why are we paying for practice and a big weekend race, just to have to pay again to get needed practice in during a club race? I'm very confused. In most other situations in life this is called "double dipping"
Sincerely, Shannon
All I can say is I'm very disappointed and I was lied to, this is very dis-heartening.
We are paying big bucks here and having our practice time limited by what seems like a greed for more money. As I stated last year to Scott about the club race, "you charged me more money and I got 10 to 15 minutes of additional practice during the club race, it would be much better just to have open practice and let us practice" Scott agreed with me and told me we would not have a club race next year, and I thanked him for his decision.
Sorry to put a downer on this, but this sucks. We paid racers should have the track to ourselves and be able to practice as long as possible for a big race like this.
Why are we paying for practice and a big weekend race, just to have to pay again to get needed practice in during a club race? I'm very confused. In most other situations in life this is called "double dipping"
Sincerely, Shannon
01-23-2013, 07:52 PM
#73
Theres 9.5 hours of practice. How much more do you need? Just as with any big race there are certain times for practice. Scott couldve just locked down at 530 and went home to get some rest. God knows we all are gonna need it. Second of all wth would you boycott the very place you race and practice every week? Attitude like that is the reason theres only two tracks within a half hour.. and its cold as hell at dirtburners
01-23-2013, 07:55 PM
#74
This is very sad! I was told last year at the JC race by the track owner, Scott, and this year by Rod Rippee that they saw the error of their ways and would not have a club race on Friday night thus allowing for more practice time.
All I can say is I'm very disappointed and I was lied to, this is very dis-heartening.
We are paying big bucks here and having our practice time limited by what seems like a greed for more money. As I stated last year to Scott about the club race, "you charged me more money and I got 10 to 15 minutes of additional practice during the club race, it would be much better just to have open practice and let us practice" Scott agreed with me and told me we would not have a club race next year, and I thanked him for his decision.
Sorry to put a downer on this, but this sucks. We paid racers should have the track to ourselves and be able to practice as long as possible for a big race like this.
Why are we paying for practice and a big weekend race, just to have to pay again to get needed practice in during a club race? I'm very confused. In most other situations in life this is called "double dipping"
Sincerely, Shannon
All I can say is I'm very disappointed and I was lied to, this is very dis-heartening.
We are paying big bucks here and having our practice time limited by what seems like a greed for more money. As I stated last year to Scott about the club race, "you charged me more money and I got 10 to 15 minutes of additional practice during the club race, it would be much better just to have open practice and let us practice" Scott agreed with me and told me we would not have a club race next year, and I thanked him for his decision.
Sorry to put a downer on this, but this sucks. We paid racers should have the track to ourselves and be able to practice as long as possible for a big race like this.
Why are we paying for practice and a big weekend race, just to have to pay again to get needed practice in during a club race? I'm very confused. In most other situations in life this is called "double dipping"
Sincerely, Shannon
01-23-2013, 08:27 PM
#75
I understand both parts of this arguement. Very well. I agree track time is needed. Specially me. But look at it this way. Times are posted for the sake of practice . Scott could look the doors at 6 if no one club races. And go home .not saying he would but. What if he did ? What if this club race is whats needed to keep operating. Giving us a place to race? . I know for one i wont be racing friday night. But not for the sake of it costing a little more money.