Motor tuning questions
01-17-2006, 06:04 AM
#16
Tech Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
was at carpetwars 3 weeks ago & richmond rogers was having power issue`s with a EA motor wanted more get up & go
This guy `CAN` drive & `SETUP` cars former euro champ in 1/8th fantastic off road driver
he came to me as the `THE` man in the know (this meet only)
was on green/red moved him up to red/purple zubaks juice & F-lines
after setting TQ next race came back
well happy ,but said he lost a little top speed by going harder , but has gain a lot more punch through the infield
figure that one
but then kevin brunsden comes on the scene & runs green/green @ aldershot out door track & sets track record
he is more USA thinking in he`s spring combo`s
2 different guy`s 2 different ways
make your choice or phone a friend
This guy `CAN` drive & `SETUP` cars former euro champ in 1/8th fantastic off road driver
he came to me as the `THE` man in the know (this meet only)
was on green/red moved him up to red/purple zubaks juice & F-lines
after setting TQ next race came back
well happy ,but said he lost a little top speed by going harder , but has gain a lot more punch through the infield
figure that one
but then kevin brunsden comes on the scene & runs green/green @ aldershot out door track & sets track record
he is more USA thinking in he`s spring combo`s
2 different guy`s 2 different ways
make your choice or phone a friend
01-17-2006, 09:14 AM
#17
Being from the USA or Europe doesn't change the fact....
Oscar Jansen (European last I checked......tuner of the motors that win all the time) will tell you the same thing.....
The V2 motor is a prime example, if you use too stiff a spring, the motor will spin up way to high with the lower winds and explode....
If you don't adjust your gearing, you will feel loses in both top end and punch......cause you have changed to the power band, as changing the springs won't change overall power, it just shifts it......
Later EddieO
Oscar Jansen (European last I checked......tuner of the motors that win all the time) will tell you the same thing.....
The V2 motor is a prime example, if you use too stiff a spring, the motor will spin up way to high with the lower winds and explode....
If you don't adjust your gearing, you will feel loses in both top end and punch......cause you have changed to the power band, as changing the springs won't change overall power, it just shifts it......
Later EddieO
01-17-2006, 11:16 AM
#18
I have a turbo dyno and i agree with eddie .. I never thought i make any power with purple springs after tring purple springs with 4499s like eddie used at cleveland carpet nats.. I have to say wow .It works even for me in offroad .Now i just have to figure out why sometimes my turbo dyno says motor volts to low even though i am useing a 35 amp power supply and a turbo 30 dyno 
01-17-2006, 11:59 AM
#19
Check your power supply.....it may be cutting out.....
Colin, like I said need to change the gearing some times......
Later EddieO
Colin, like I said need to change the gearing some times......
Later EddieO
01-17-2006, 12:08 PM
#20
Tech Initiate
Originally Posted by EddieO
Softer Spring will produce more torque
Stiffer Spring will produce more RPM.....
Using a stiffer spring on the positive is just a fine tuning option to achieve optimal power, while controlling brush bounce....
You should never use a stiffer negative spring than the positive on anything other than an oval motor......the oval guys get it to work, but in touring, offroad, etc.....doesn't work very well....
Later EddieO
Stiffer Spring will produce more RPM.....
Using a stiffer spring on the positive is just a fine tuning option to achieve optimal power, while controlling brush bounce....
You should never use a stiffer negative spring than the positive on anything other than an oval motor......the oval guys get it to work, but in touring, offroad, etc.....doesn't work very well....
Later EddieO
Try this link:http://www.teamorion.com/products/mo...ss.asp#Springs
Quote from the link:
"Alter the powerband and characteristics of your motor by changing your motor spring tension. Try a little stiffer spring for more torque and a little softer for more RPM. The springs have additional material at the spring/brush connection to increase heat dissipation and are color coded for easy identification."
01-17-2006, 12:12 PM
#21
Tech Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
Thanks Eddie
only just nattering & passing the time of day away
but in the uk we do do it differently a tad
it`s like when you first done the monsters with purple/purple
it`s a much used setup in the states then over here in the UK
but with so many parameters to get inline first ,does get confusing
unless we talk to you or EA of course then it becomes clearer 
all we need now is a `World championship for 27t & 19t `instead of mods
then let the battle begin
at the mo
usa stock guy`s think there fast ??
UK stock guy`s think they are fast ??
answer on a postcard please
bets are on
only just nattering & passing the time of day away
but in the uk we do do it differently a tad
it`s like when you first done the monsters with purple/purple
it`s a much used setup in the states then over here in the UK
but with so many parameters to get inline first ,does get confusing
unless we talk to you or EA of course then it becomes clearer all we need now is a `World championship for 27t & 19t `instead of mods
then let the battle begin
at the mo
usa stock guy`s think there fast ??
UK stock guy`s think they are fast ??
answer on a postcard please
bets are on
01-17-2006, 12:17 PM
#22
Tech Master
Originally Posted by EddieO
Well, I can guarantee you thats how it is....
Do the test on a turbodyno.....you will get the same results....
Later EddieO
Do the test on a turbodyno.....you will get the same results....
Later EddieO
i run mod and we always use harder springs to gain punch at the cost of rpm.
if we run lighter springs we ruin brushes to soon and dont get enough torgue and too much arching.
please explain to a racer who runs mod and tried diff springs why it is the way you said and not the way i have tested and learned.
iam up for anything and if i learn something, good.
cheers.
01-17-2006, 12:20 PM
#23
Tech Master
Originally Posted by EddieO
Being from the USA or Europe doesn't change the fact....
Oscar Jansen (European last I checked......tuner of the motors that win all the time) will tell you the same thing.....
The V2 motor is a prime example, if you use too stiff a spring, the motor will spin up way to high with the lower winds and explode....
If you don't adjust your gearing, you will feel loses in both top end and punch......cause you have changed to the power band, as changing the springs won't change overall power, it just shifts it......
Later EddieO
Oscar Jansen (European last I checked......tuner of the motors that win all the time) will tell you the same thing.....
The V2 motor is a prime example, if you use too stiff a spring, the motor will spin up way to high with the lower winds and explode....
If you don't adjust your gearing, you will feel loses in both top end and punch......cause you have changed to the power band, as changing the springs won't change overall power, it just shifts it......
Later EddieO
something doesnt add up here at all.too much work on dyno methinks lol
01-17-2006, 01:05 PM
#24
in my experiences for modified motors i ran stiffer springs(purple)...i think the brushes have more of a tendency to bounce more on the comm at higher RPMs which in turn putting on a stiffer spring will eliminate alot of the bouncing and still produce more torque because the brush actually stays in contact with the comm more
01-17-2006, 01:53 PM
#25
Tech Fanatic
this is what i came up with see if this helps. monstor stock i run 4499 full
face and red and red springs on a mix carpet track . on a tight track
i run purple on the + side and red on the - side but i gear up 1 tooth or 2 becuse i lose more rs. that will give me more corner speed becuse it give's me more torqe then rpm's
now large track you want more rpm so run a green spring - and red on the + that sould help the motor stay cooler as you gear up , but eddys 0
is right its realy up to how you gear a motor you can dyno all you want , it dose not matter the truth is on the track.
note : i have seen a lot of top drivers racing and there 's more passing in the infeild then the stright away i wounder why
ill tell you racing on carpet you need more rpm s like
eddy sayed stiffer springs.give you more rs
face and red and red springs on a mix carpet track . on a tight track
i run purple on the + side and red on the - side but i gear up 1 tooth or 2 becuse i lose more rs. that will give me more corner speed becuse it give's me more torqe then rpm's
now large track you want more rpm so run a green spring - and red on the + that sould help the motor stay cooler as you gear up , but eddys 0
is right its realy up to how you gear a motor you can dyno all you want , it dose not matter the truth is on the track.
note : i have seen a lot of top drivers racing and there 's more passing in the infeild then the stright away i wounder why
ill tell you racing on carpet you need more rpm s like
eddy sayed stiffer springs.give you more rs
Last edited by motorhead; 01-17-2006 at 02:16 PM.
01-17-2006, 02:14 PM
#26
Trf Racer, too much work on the dyno? Look at the signature bud.....the results on the track are there.....and for the record, I didn't even bring my dyno to Cleveland or the Novak race......won't bring it to snowbirds either....
I don't know why thats on Orion's site......its not correct though....
As for what springs they were running.......well, this past weekend they were running 12 turns.....so, I dunno....I'd probably run a pretty stiff spring to gain more RPM, as a 12 turn is more torquey by nature than what we normally run in modified....
I can tell you at cleveland, in Mike Dumas's 2nd place finishing car, we ran the 3.8 MR, which is the 4th stiffest of the MR springs....whenever we went to the stiffer, the motors had too much RPM....dumped and sometimes spun up to high and got knocked out of balance....
Like I said....ask Todd Putnam, Oscar, Jim Deiter, Eric Anderson, Chad Phillips etc......you will get the same answer....
And last I checked.......we all have pretty impressive resumes....
And honestly, I worry more about brush bounce with the springs than I do adjusting RPM/Torque.....
Later EddieO
I don't know why thats on Orion's site......its not correct though....
As for what springs they were running.......well, this past weekend they were running 12 turns.....so, I dunno....I'd probably run a pretty stiff spring to gain more RPM, as a 12 turn is more torquey by nature than what we normally run in modified....
I can tell you at cleveland, in Mike Dumas's 2nd place finishing car, we ran the 3.8 MR, which is the 4th stiffest of the MR springs....whenever we went to the stiffer, the motors had too much RPM....dumped and sometimes spun up to high and got knocked out of balance....
Like I said....ask Todd Putnam, Oscar, Jim Deiter, Eric Anderson, Chad Phillips etc......you will get the same answer....
And last I checked.......we all have pretty impressive resumes....
And honestly, I worry more about brush bounce with the springs than I do adjusting RPM/Torque.....
Later EddieO
01-17-2006, 02:21 PM
#27
Tech Fanatic
eddy 0 is right 
01-17-2006, 02:31 PM
#28
Tech Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
re;;brush bounce
proberly why it`s good idea to run the brush`s in for 300sec s@ 2,v
going back to kevin brunsden running green/green in 27t & 19t spec he would run the brushe`s in on motor checker so there was no brush bounce
This he said `WAS` important for the motor to go well also he added he would keep the old brushe`s in motor with out taking them out & just wash out with motor spray (didn`t want to upset the seating on comm) & invaribly `DID` go faster on second run
who is Kevin (usa guy`s only)
top schumacher driver in uk ,very laid back , very nice person) runs mod most of the time & in mod he runs softisn springs in he`s fantoms V2`s aswell
proberly why it`s good idea to run the brush`s in for 300sec s@ 2,v
going back to kevin brunsden running green/green in 27t & 19t spec he would run the brushe`s in on motor checker so there was no brush bounce
This he said `WAS` important for the motor to go well also he added he would keep the old brushe`s in motor with out taking them out & just wash out with motor spray (didn`t want to upset the seating on comm) & invaribly `DID` go faster on second run
who is Kevin (usa guy`s only)
top schumacher driver in uk ,very laid back , very nice person) runs mod most of the time & in mod he runs softisn springs in he`s fantoms V2`s aswell
01-17-2006, 07:32 PM
#29
guys, look at Eddies track results..
2005 Snowbirds Champions
2005 ROAR Carpet Modified National Champions
2005 ROAR Carpet Modified Nationals TQ
2005 ROAR Carpet Stock National Champions
2005 Reedy Race Champions
2005 Reedy Race TQ
2005 International Champs Stock Rubber Champions
2005 International Champs TQ (3 classes!)
2005 ROAR Paved Stock Nationals TQ
2005 Cleveland TQ
2005 Cleveland Champions
I think i will trust him before most people. THe Track results obviously prove that he knows what he is doing dont you think?
2005 Snowbirds Champions
2005 ROAR Carpet Modified National Champions
2005 ROAR Carpet Modified Nationals TQ
2005 ROAR Carpet Stock National Champions
2005 Reedy Race Champions
2005 Reedy Race TQ
2005 International Champs Stock Rubber Champions
2005 International Champs TQ (3 classes!)
2005 ROAR Paved Stock Nationals TQ
2005 Cleveland TQ
2005 Cleveland Champions
I think i will trust him before most people. THe Track results obviously prove that he knows what he is doing dont you think?
01-18-2006, 03:35 AM
#30
SO many thing's have changed since I got back into this hobby. I used to have a td-30 back in the day...I now have a td-45 since I recently got back into this hobby...and cannot get close to the #'s I used to get. But today the motor's are turning so many more rpm's, I cannot compare result's from the past to result's I get today...( I am talking 6 year's ago )...the motor's are turning so many more rpm's they will never pull like they used to.
Which bring's me to my point...I've found that the #'s are relative...regarding rpm/torque. Like eddie, the heavier spring I use the more rpm's the motor spins on the dyno...the less torque it has...the softer the spring just the oppisite end result.
The real question is what's the actual torque/amp load I should be tuning for...I race stock dirtoval...if I do the amp draw equation mathmatically after coming in off the track I get a wide variation in #'s...anywhere from 38 to 27...depending on second's left in the pack to 5.40 volts.. ( this equation may be correct, but I dont think it is fullproof...just my opinion, feel free to correct me if you find otherwise )..
here is a sample sheet from my dyno.
constant 7.00 volts
RPM Torq Watt Ef Amps
27666 4.0 82 58 19.9
25901 5.0 96 61 22.2
24106 6.0 109 63 24.5
22582 7.0 117 61 27.2
21709 7.5 120 60 28.4
20653 8.0 123 58 29.8
I've been away a long time, and have a big learning curve to get around...so the question is, what #'s on the dyno will correlate <sp? to on track performance?
SC
Which bring's me to my point...I've found that the #'s are relative...regarding rpm/torque. Like eddie, the heavier spring I use the more rpm's the motor spins on the dyno...the less torque it has...the softer the spring just the oppisite end result.
The real question is what's the actual torque/amp load I should be tuning for...I race stock dirtoval...if I do the amp draw equation mathmatically after coming in off the track I get a wide variation in #'s...anywhere from 38 to 27...depending on second's left in the pack to 5.40 volts.. ( this equation may be correct, but I dont think it is fullproof...just my opinion, feel free to correct me if you find otherwise )..
here is a sample sheet from my dyno.
constant 7.00 volts
RPM Torq Watt Ef Amps
27666 4.0 82 58 19.9
25901 5.0 96 61 22.2
24106 6.0 109 63 24.5
22582 7.0 117 61 27.2
21709 7.5 120 60 28.4
20653 8.0 123 58 29.8
I've been away a long time, and have a big learning curve to get around...so the question is, what #'s on the dyno will correlate <sp? to on track performance?
SC