Let's talk race formats
 

hi all - we all love racing -- but we all have opinions on how we can make it better. coming on the back side of some great events so far this indoor season-

• IIC
• Halloween Classic
• US Indoor Champs <-- the biggest event of the year so far!

all opinions are fair game- lets hear em-

• qual points
• shorter racers
• running stock one day, mod the next day
• pan car one day, tc the next day
• double/triple mains
• heads up qualifying
• less qualifying, more racing
• reedy style
• race directors not afraid to call stop-n-gos
• restarting mains after a first lap wreck
• bump ups

how can we make this hobby better??

Where to begin .
Seeding seems to help clean up the equals thats good
I like the heads up races but unfortunately not everyone respects others space and pace with the passing in the first 30sec of racing ,which sucks .
I would think it would be pretty cool to see;
3min quals
And triple mains @ std lengths
Or just go qual points all the way . Both have its place . I've attempted to get our race director to do more heads up racing on club day just so we all know how to make the first corner (or lap even) ,clean...

1. Shorter races Ex. 3 day race instead of 4!
2. Triple A - mains
3. Less classes
4. Limit entries somehow but stack available classes
5. Take the races out of ball rooms and put them in car shows. Target audience doesn't even know we exist because we are racing in hotels

1. 3 race days isn't a bad idea if entries are below 300 but if they are above that 3 days are either unfilling or very long days .
2. Again triple A-mains would be a chore on 3 day events but great for iic or birds.
3. Less classes !
TC
Usvta
Usgt
Stock
Mod
1/12
Spec (spec tires/17.5)
Stock (open tire 13.5)
Mod
4. Limited entries per class isn't a bad thing
5. Holding races at hotels are cheaper than civic center rentals I would imagine . But love I idea for sure !
Remember racing in parking lots in Memphis tons of intrest from people passing by .

Qual points...for every race.

Handout motors for spec classes

all classes 5 minute races (yes even 1/12th scale)

I like it !

Make Super Stock open ESC or not run it at all to encourage Mod entries. It's not a big enough jump in speed and power to make sense.

All touring cars run spec tires, this is a good thing.

Stock 1/12 runs spec tires but we should try offering racers two choices of front tire, maybe even two choices of rear tire, think Magenta or something similar. Super Stock, (if it is run at all), and Mod are open tire.

As much as i hate to say it, it is getting more and more reasonable to require stock to be handout motor. Mod is Mod, and is open motor and ESC.

I know people are married to the full-length race as a "qualifier" but maybe we should try running a program in which fast single laps count and bad ones can get thrown out. Maybe average your fastest 50 individual laps over all qualifiers to be your score? Fastest 100 laps?

Perhaps steal race formats from Track Cycling?

Devil take the hindmost, or Devil take the leader.. Both lead to interesting strategys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_races

Have a pace car, and then a final one or two lap sprint:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirin

Start cars on oppisite sides of the track, whomever catches who, wins:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_pursuit

I would be all for doing say, three 4 or 5 lap qualifying heats with only 2 cars on track, started IFMAR style with half a lap spacing. It would be somewhat similar to pre-2006 F1 qualifying. Best two heats times are summed. Then, run double or triple mains (8, 10, 12 minutes each?).

The USVTA Indoor Nats has used 1 minute qual heats to seed the actual qualifying heats for the VTA class. It is actually fairly exciting to watch and participate in, and would be more-so if it counted more.

Stock and Mod TC. Stock and Mod 12th. And a filler class. USGT for TC and/or WGT or F1 for pan car. I like the idea of 3 day race instead of 4. Heads up racing would be cool. Reminds me of TCS racing.

I dont think shortening the qualifying races are really the answer. With the cost of travel and entry fees do people really want less track time for there money ? Being a racer who primarily runs 1/12, i actually dont mind Arts suggestion on all races 5 minutes.

Many people want to standardize classes or fewer classes but I don't see that as a realistic option. Each event needs to cater to the classes that will draw entries. 17.5 TC, USGT, and 17/5 1/12 were the largest classes at USIC last weekend. vta was down but 2 other classes - F1 and WGTR - had 30 and 40 entries respectively and are clearly on the rise. 13.5 TC had 1 heat and is maybe not long for the event (my guess only, I certainly don't speak for Sean and Ken). Mod TC was also up, and nice to see even if many of us in the class did more damage to our cars than our lap times.

At the end of the day, the event organizer has to go with what gets him entries. period. Without the added cars from F1, USGT & WGTR USIC would have been a significantly smaller event and they would not be able to have the larger track and nicer hotel. In general the more 'realistic' classes are gaining in popularity and are starting to overtake the traditional TC and 1/12 classes. Look at F1 in the last 2 years.

For the actual racing

1. Seeding quals, or even just clocking your 3 fastest laps in succession during a structured practice session prior to qualifying. The original vta seeding run was 2 full laps with a warm up and cool down with the next car on the track as you started your cool down lap - just like NASCAR. That is cool when there's 1 person on the stand and a roomful of people watching. I would love to see it at a big race. Having done it, its scary as hell for the average racer when there are 50 or more people watching just you on the track.
2. I don't think qual points are viable unless most racers are at the same level. That is definitely not the case at a large event.
3. 5 minute races for every class. I know this is almost a biblical thing for the 1/12 guys, but is there really a reason other than that's the way its always been done? Its time to move the needle a bit. Shorter races might equal more racers
4. Single mains. I just don't think triple mains work when you have 440 racers and 12 classes. There were 43 mains with 10 cars each (mostly) at USIC. Having triple A's would have added 24 races for a 67 race mains day. That isn't going to work. People have to get home.
5. Keep the track open all night. There were guys wrenching 24/7 at USIC. Plenty of time to practice..

I think finding a way to make an individual's day shorter/more compressed would be ideal. Kind of like snowbirds.. but to a greater degree. track is open, racing is happening, but you are either racing actively, or awaiting another race period to start.

Look at Eos. 2wd runs a bunch (ie multi qual rounds) and then 4wd takes over the program. If this was either laid out based upon generic chassis type (Tc vs pan) or motor class (stock vs mod) I think people would have bigger chunks of time to decide they can do something else, or maybe take a nap, so possibly they can then take advantage of further practice.

Handout motor for stock classes. There are some very affordable options available. Having to do a complete motor tear down and then having to re-tech a motor for a timing change at the Indoor Champs seems like a time suck for racers and the people running the race. I don't dispute the reasoning behind the decision but a lot of time could have been saved by just going handout. Neither is a perfect solution.

What happened to alternate formats such as Enduro events? I'd like to see some variety, rather than the same formula at different venues.

Hanulec used to run a 24 hour race at his track. That has it's own set of problems.

Yea, I know, I don't race very often. I don't care.

Qual points sucks.

Shorter qualifiers, and longer mains. Not triple A's

The problem with handout motors is brushless motors are way more expensive than their brushed counterparts. And at a big race you would need a quality (and more expensive) motor. Cheap motors are cheap for a reason.

I like the idea of split format race day. 1/12 in the morning, TC in the afternoon. You can choose which part of the day you want to run, and if you're running 2 classes, you're working on one at a time.

And one silly question has anyone even attempted to enforce the ROAR rule about max 1c charging? :sneaky:

Not in the rules anymore

In theory I like the idea of say TC in morning, 12th in afternoon. In practice I see 2 issues, 1) sometimes you need filler classes to prevent drivers from being back to back 2)drivers who run both TC and 12th (there were a lot) don't gain anything and thus make it a mute point

i think getting the mix here correct is the challenge. but it could open up new opportunities. there are only a few crazy people who do stock+mod and tc+pan. i bet if we just looked at entries from these past three races would could easily come up w/ some common class trends.

then the question would be do we have people run these common classes in the same 'session' or in different 'sessions'

Let's talk at 360v2 next week

Don't listen to me, I'm an onroad newb. But some things about onroad seem odd to me:

-Why are there three 1/12th classes and five touring car classes? Isn't that a bit excessive?

-Why aren't the rules for big events listed, completely? There are people still out there that don't have a clue what motor/battery/tires to bring. Especially since there's a never ending argument about such things making things even murkier.

-it's really cool how the Snowbirds have oval racing at the same event as onroad.
-triple A mains for mod only. Gives an incentive to run mod, and can you really triple main every class anyways?

I like motocross format. Run a few heats if you win or top 4-5 seed into the mains. Then run a last chance qualifier of shortened duration and 1-3 of those bump to the mains. Then run the mains based on who won the heats, then the LCQ.

The idea here is racing against each other every race. Not the clock in the qualifiers.

Then only use the clock and lap counts as ways to stack the mains properly A-B-C.

Main events always a bit longer than heats and LCQs.

I would like to try this format at least once. Where can I find it? Thanks:cool:

the 1 min qual works pretty well for the USVTA National races....I really helps sort people out and is a lot of fun.

I like the 3 min seeding round too...but I think 5 min reg quals and 8 min mains is a good option for all classes....

if not AAA mains is the best option....

I also like the hotel races, it allows time when travelling with your family....I can race my race and then hit the pool with the kids and never have to leave the building...also it saves gas and time

At the very least any race that claims to be big should be running multiple mains.

•reedy style
•race directors not afraid to call stop-n-gos

OK, here’s my 2 cents:
I’ve been around the hobby for awhile, 30+years, and I’ve seen a lot of change. I miss some of the old ways, like two classes, stock and modified. But, it is what it is…lol.
I like the controlled practice seeding rounds, it seems to sort talent levels very well.
I like triple A mains, especially for Modified. Not so much for the others.
I don’t like so many classes. Too many TC classes in the mix. A limit to three should be enough for most races. I’m thinking 17.5, 13.5 and open Mod. USVTA has several races a year for the VTA and GT classes. Just my opinion, don’t jump on it too hard. Lol
17.5 Amateur, no sponsored drivers..
13.5 Open to all
Modified hold on as best you can.

For club racing, I like the tried and true 3 qual and a main with a resort after round 1. If the race director is doing their job correctly, the resort would be minimal and really only include non-regulars. The RD should be setting up the heats based on knowing their regulars anyway. I like the single main as it can allow at least one bump up. That's always fun if youre having a bad race day and it still allows you to get into the A if it took the whole day to get your mental game together. I've also seen this done at big races and the B-main winner had choice of taking b-main podium OR bumping up. You don't get both.

"Big" races triple mains are the way to go. It's not a single race that decides your fate.

There's no need for a National race to take entire week i.e. Snowbirds

Great conversation!

For the WCICS series we made a pretty major adjustment this season of dropping 1 qualifier (so only 3 on Saturday) and running Triple As and Double Lower mains.

So far the feedback has been excellent and it seems most people are really learning how to race heads up as now they are doing it twice (or three times) as much per race, which has been a problem over the last couple years (in my opinion).

For those that don't know WCICS is an 8 race series up here in Western Canada. Last year we had over 1200 entries over the 8 races with the biggest being 230+ entries in Victoria.

That was back in the days when you could run anything you want, as long as it was 1/12 scale. :D

In the end entries are what drive the directors to have more classes , so killing off 2 classes only cause they are scale in look hurts the pockets of the event. But the middle ground classes are hurting more and more . And the guys running it seem to just be looking for extra track time first off . So the level of competition is all over the place in 13.5 tc. Not one run was it a fill heat last weekend . I know we thru 2 runs away (1 testing 17.5 setup, other sleeping) . Not to mention lap times are only .1-.2 faster with the new breed of motors .
But I'm all for usgt being the new stock class and 17.5 being the new superstock

Random sort rd 1, no seeding
Rd 2 sort 3 consecutive.
Rd 3 & 4 sort fastest over all

Shorter qualifier times, 3 min each class
Qual points. every round should count equal.

Mains longer then quals, i.e. 3 min 1/12 qual 8 min main.... 3 min sedan qual 6 min mains
Bumps or ladder both have every racer still racing for the top spot through the mains! Bumps work better when class counts are lower then 30.

Hmm good points.... Having USVTA classes at big races like the big 3 iic birds champs... Is overkill. I personally would like the same support for the official USVTA big 3 events Summit Southern and Asphalt, and possibly return of Scale.... I love that 60 racers ran USGT and 20+ ran USVTA and F1.... But having that same amount at half the cost is something I would love to see

The snowbirds has to because its basically two races in one (onroad and Oval). SO for the amount of people racing they get done with it pretty quickly.

EA

How much can a big spot in a car show actually be? Dont people pay to get into those events? I doubt the car show charges much for a car to come in. It would be part of the entertainment for the weekend. I imagine at a big car show, people would be stacked up ear to ear to watch small cars battle it out at speeds they didn't even know could be possible.

Also, combine usvta and usgt into one scale class with one set of rules.

Limiting entries into few classes makes events more prestigious. This allows organizers to set up qualifying events. (Roar) This also allows for triple A-mains.

For the amount of days vs. the actual track time is not even feasible if you run 1 class. You literally have to run 2-3 classes just to get enough wheel time

Reduce the class options. Things were a lot stronger and simpler when we had TC and 1:12. Back to the foam days.

TC x 3, 1:12 x 3, VTA, USGT, WGT, WGTR, F1, 235 pan, etc.... Too many classes.

Qual Points
Triple Mains (double lower mains if time does not allow)
Less Classes
Handout motors for spec classes
Call driving penalties
3-day races the norm, 4 day only for large events (IIC, snowbirds, Reedy, USIC)


Basically all of these are in use by the ETS series, which consistently gets 300+ entries per event across only 3 classes.

I enjoy doing some races that have unique qualfying structures, like the SoCal Scale series we had in this area a couple years ago. It ran with a 2-minute qualifying session, taking your 3 best hot laps and adding them together to seed your races. Then 3x 10 minute mains. It was a blast, but its something I would like for the odd event, not as the norm.

I dont feel this is true. I get more practice at the snowbirds than any other big race I attend. The only exception could possibly be the US Indoor champs last week. But most of the practice there was on new carpet. Once racing started there was no time between races to practice like there is each morning at the birds. I do agree that its better for the Birds to run 2 classes so you can get more track time on the layout. But there Ive never left the birds and thought many I needed 1 or 2 more runs to get my car good. Other races yes I say that all the time that I needed more track time.

EA