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Old 11-16-2005, 05:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Howard
How 'bout you guys think of changing the stock motor rules to make them SLOWER. So the class can get back to being the stepping stone into racing that it should be. Anyone that cries it's too slow would probably have the driving ability to run 19T or "gasp" even mod.
I agree. The reason people stay in stock so long as it's "just fast enough" slow it back down and you will see the good people jump out of stock it will be the class for newbies again.
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:34 AM   #17
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I am not the fastest stock racer, but if you cheat to win then your a looser from the start, so to all the cheater's out there winning that race with that cheater motor your just the biggest LOOSER anyway.
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:44 AM   #18
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I've been racing for a while (too long actually) and there are a couple of guys I race with from the same era. We all agree that today's stock motors compare in speed to 15 turn mods from 10-12 years ago. So yea, stock motors are too fast for newbies.

At my local track it's not uncommon to see the top racers cutting their comms after every run. In carpet on road a tenth of a second is huge.

Add to that todays mod motors go as low as 6 turns (most use 7 or 8 turns in mod racing) those cars are so ridicously fast most people don't want to run mod on a weekly basis, too much work.

So stock motors are too fast for your average new racer, and the experienced racers don't want to move up because it's too much work. Result? Fewer racers.
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:46 AM   #19
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I agree with what Matt and others have just said. A well set up 27T car is TOO fast for a beginner to racing.

And I think competitive stock motors are very difficult motors to run, they are awkward to gear, prone to running hot, need regular bushing lubrication etc etc (hence my preference for 19T class).

Sealed 540's are a pain too - difficult to tune, harder to scrutineer.

Here is my suggestion for a new stock class....

35 turns machine wound
Stand-up brushes (with a maximum width/height limit)
Standard size comm
Fixed 24 deg timing
Full armature (no slots)
Twin magnets
Bearings.

I am sure this would create an easy-to-use, long-lasting stock motor that is slow enough to encourage beginners and bore experienced racers!

Any comments?
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:00 AM   #20
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I say, ixnay stock altogether and run 6 cell mod and 4 cell adjustable 19T. If mod were defined by two classes as intermediate (12 turn and up), and expert (12 turn and below), that would offer the answers for ALOT of the class issues we complain about. Beginners get the reduced speed with 4 cells, and durability of a bearing supported motor in the adjustable 19T class. This way all motors are of the adjustable/rebuildable variety, and you could honestly own a few teardowns and just replacement arms for the classes you want to run. Brushes would be the standup versions in all classes.



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Old 11-16-2005, 07:11 AM   #21
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The first thing any beginner asks when they see an RC car is "How fast is it?" followed invariably by "How much does it cost"...

setting up a class with motors that would cost as much or more than stock and run slower doesn't hold much appeal for that market.

No matter what the rules of the class are, the cream will rise to the top...the fast guys will stillbe the fast guys...

People have been tweaking and tuning motors as long as there has been racing....with the sealed motors they just needed to be either more discreet about it, or have deeper pockets to buy thier motors in bulk to find the occassional 'rocket'

A larger problem is that many beginners underestimate the difficulty in finding a proper setup, maintaining their equipment and just flat-out driving! They'll buy a kit and expect to win the A first night out and get embarassed and humbled when they are in a bottom main..

One of the things that our local tracks have incorporated is a 'Most Improved Driver" sytem that tracks personal bests and keeps track of who is maing the largest steps week to week. It helps the new racers feel good about their progress as well as giving all racers realistic targets to shoot for (either improving their own PB or gunning for a target rival's time to bump them down the list)

As far as motor reform goes....keep your eyes peeled...with the legalization of brushless for mod, the brushed motor manufcturers have already begun to lobby to allow more development of brushed technology to help even the playing field....as this 'new' technology is accepted it will trickle down to stock (whether Stock remains 27t, goest to 19T, 23T, etc)
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
I agree with what Matt and others have just said. A well set up 27T car is TOO fast for a beginner to racing.

And I think competitive stock motors are very difficult motors to run, they are awkward to gear, prone to running hot, need regular bushing lubrication etc etc (hence my preference for 19T class).

Sealed 540's are a pain too - difficult to tune, harder to scrutineer.

Here is my suggestion for a new stock class....

35 turns machine wound
Stand-up brushes (with a maximum width/height limit)
Standard size comm
Fixed 24 deg timing
Full armature (no slots)
Twin magnets
Bearings.

I am sure this would create an easy-to-use, long-lasting stock motor that is slow enough to encourage beginners and bore experienced racers!

Any comments?
Actually, just going back to full stack armatures and stand up brushes with the rest of the rules staying the same will slow down the motor drastically and increase the life enormously. The cost of bearings compaired to bushings is a no brainer, they cost the same or very similar so that would be one thing added to the rules.
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:28 AM   #23
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All so true windsorguy! seems everybody underestimates other people's chassis tuning skills,which is really where all the speed is,along with a good radio hand.I've said it a thousand times I've had the fastest car on the track so many times and just plain got outdrove.
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windsorguy99
No matter what the rules of the class are, the cream will rise to the top...the fast guys will still be the fast guys...

A larger problem is that many beginners underestimate the difficulty in finding a proper setup, maintaining their equipment and just flat-out driving! They'll buy a kit and expect to win the A first night out and get embarassed and humbled when they are in a bottom main..
I know at my local track, when I race stock, everyone thinks I have faster motors and batteries. Time and time again I have proved them wrong by pulling my motor out of my vehicle and handing it to them and putting their motor in my vehicle just to continue to beat them for the above reasons that Windsorguy99 stated. The new people(or in my example, the other local seasoned racers) just need to practice at getting faster in their troubled areas and not worry about who has the faster mtoor or better batteries.
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:36 AM   #25
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To the guy who started this thread...Is there no tech at your track ?
Even for a club race, if you suspect cheating, tell your track operator to inspect the top 3 motors. If he/she does not know what to look for have somebody present who does take a loop at them.

If you guys are short on time and do not wanna take the time to tear them apart. Spin them up on a dyno, that is usually a way to see if the motor is a freak.
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Old 11-16-2005, 09:51 AM   #26
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Wish having a tech would solve the problems...

However, Its not that easy...

The methods use today to tune are difficult to spot , not so easy to tech as you may think.....


Things are being done that even a trained & experience tech will miss...
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:15 AM   #27
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And these things are??

Can't wait to here this...


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Old 11-16-2005, 10:22 AM   #28
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I'm curious also! Like you Eddie,this should be good.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:22 AM   #29
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the less rules you put on something, the less cheating there is. Put a price limit on the amount the motor can be sold for, and that will limit the technology put into the motor. After that, there is a constant to start with and go from there. Have a tagged arm, visible magnets, adjustable endbell and bearings. Take all the cheats and make them part of the motor.
Im not a stock racer, but I remember these problems over 15 years ago when I was just starting out.
Maybe I have it all wrong, but ive always had the thought of the less rules there are, the less chance of cheating there will be.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:23 AM   #30
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I think another solution is the ESC's brushless 24,000 RPM feature. Both the LRP Sphere and Novak SuperSport (not sure about the GTB) allow the motor to be limited to 24,000 RPM. Regardless of the brushless motor you choose, the motor is limited to 24,000 RPM. I like it!
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