Change carpet onroad in the U.S.?
10-07-2015, 11:25 AM
#1
Change carpet onroad in the U.S.?
We're having a great discussion on FB about how to make racing closer and less daunting for both stock and mod on carpet for TC and 1/12th since it seems none of the manufacturers have attempted to reinvigorate carpet onroad by pushing for change after the technology leaps in speed due to battery and motor advancement.
I think everyone can agree that the current popularity of the market has been stagnant for quite some time in the U.S. New and seasoned racers find it harder and harder to be competitve due to the insane 7-9 sec laps.
Change will only come about when the racers can agree to move from their comfort zones. Either moving to a slower class or to a "mod" class.
I created a poll to get a feel for what the majority wants. Please take part but do it subjectively and think whats best for the market.
Feel free to discuss your opinions but the "you want to slow the speeds down because you suck" types can keep it to yourself. If you like racing against 3 other guys in mod and 10, at best, guys in stock that have a chance of beating you you're doing nothing to grow the class sizes.
Edit:
Thoughts in the thread on how to trim classes and adjust speeds to promote closer racing by ability
• Slim down class options
• Adjust motor winds
o Open Mod > 10.5 blinky > 25.5 (or 21.5) blinky
o 10.5 blinky (pro) > 21.5 blinky (stock) > 25.5 USGT-like (amateur)
Some variables with winds and/or adjustment between TC and 12th
o TC: 10.5 Open > 17.5 blinky > USGT or VTA
o 12th: 10.5 Open > 17.5 blinky
• Kill 13.5 WGT
• Kill all 13.5 as a secondary class
• Keep it limited to 7 classes total at large event (3 TC chassis’ / 3-4 pan style)
• Less grippy tires and/or Spec tire for 12th at events
• Life batteries all around
• Smaller mah lipos
• Locked timing for Stock
• 10% lap rule
I think everyone can agree that the current popularity of the market has been stagnant for quite some time in the U.S. New and seasoned racers find it harder and harder to be competitve due to the insane 7-9 sec laps.
Change will only come about when the racers can agree to move from their comfort zones. Either moving to a slower class or to a "mod" class.
I created a poll to get a feel for what the majority wants. Please take part but do it subjectively and think whats best for the market.
Feel free to discuss your opinions but the "you want to slow the speeds down because you suck" types can keep it to yourself. If you like racing against 3 other guys in mod and 10, at best, guys in stock that have a chance of beating you you're doing nothing to grow the class sizes.
Edit:
Thoughts in the thread on how to trim classes and adjust speeds to promote closer racing by ability
• Slim down class options
• Adjust motor winds
o Open Mod > 10.5 blinky > 25.5 (or 21.5) blinky
o 10.5 blinky (pro) > 21.5 blinky (stock) > 25.5 USGT-like (amateur)
Some variables with winds and/or adjustment between TC and 12th
o TC: 10.5 Open > 17.5 blinky > USGT or VTA
o 12th: 10.5 Open > 17.5 blinky
• Kill 13.5 WGT
• Kill all 13.5 as a secondary class
• Keep it limited to 7 classes total at large event (3 TC chassis’ / 3-4 pan style)
• Less grippy tires and/or Spec tire for 12th at events
• Life batteries all around
• Smaller mah lipos
• Locked timing for Stock
• 10% lap rule
Last edited by nwagner; 08-11-2016 at 02:39 PM.
10-07-2015, 11:27 AM
#2
Here is the post by Chicky that sparked the discussion:
After taking some time off of on road and racing off road this year there are a lot of broken things about on road other than the tires. I witnessed it this year at the Halloween race. Here are some of the problems we have.*
There are so little people racing on road and so many different classes that the fields are so thin and there is not enough people to separate the skilled guys and less skilled guys. Adding more classes isn't going to solve the problem it just makes it worse. The cars are too fast and the tracks are too small even in the stock classes to promote good clean racing. Every main I watched was a complete hack fest, from stock to mod. Even the fastest and best 2 17.5 12th scale guys at this race were taking each other out (not purposely I don't think) and that was the slowest non "funster" class.*
When I raced off road this season many times there were 50-100 people in a class. Racing in your main was actually fun because you always raced people of the same skill level. The way on road is now, there are only a select few that can handle the speeds of 17.5 through mod on that tight of a track and be able to race at a high level. Here is another example, I raced mod tc, I like mod and I want to go fast. Nothing wrong with that or anyone else to do it. The problem is you have Keven Hebert, Paul Lemieux and Andrew Hardman who are super star drivers in a 10 car field of less skilled drivers on an 8 second lap, That is a car every .8 seconds. I started mid pack, after I got bounced around in the beginning I was already being lapped so I had to move over, then a group of us got racing together, Mike Haynes, Josh Hohnstein , Cody Woods Drew Ellis and we got a good battle going, Then comes Keven, we all have to stop our fun to let the him go and then another lap later Andrew. By this time our race got spread out and we were just circulating the track, moving over and not getting to have real racing. Had there been more people of the same skill as the top guys and more of us less skilled guys, the fast guys would have been in the a-main and we would have been in the B or C, and guess what, we would have had great racing and actually had a good time! 10 cars on a 8 second track is too much. In off road you have 30 sec laps with 15 guys, that's a car ever 2 seconds on average. At the worlds in 12th scale there was some of the best on road racing I have had in a long time, why because there were enough people to fill all the mains with the same skill level and we were able to race each other, In the summer in off road weather I was in the A main, or F main I always had some one the same speed to race with and have a good time. Not get smashed by lower skilled drivers, or have to keep moving over for guys much faster than me.*
Now on to the speeds, Right now 17.5 12th scale is faster than 2009 mod lap time wise than our nats in the hotel at the Gate. The fastest lap time on that same foot print in mod 12th was 9.2. Now 17.5 is going 8.4! To be able to have good racing the speeds need to slow down to when racing was fun and very competitive, even way before 2009. Lap times need to be over 9 seconds so guys can control their cars and even a less skilled driver can compete with a more skilled driver because the speed is much slower and car setup and skill is less important. That actually gives more people a chance of doing good, not by adding another class.*
On to another issue, The Gate is in a pretty busy shopping center that has traffic all day, car shows in the summer every week. How many guys do you think started racing that just walked in or were gear heads at the car show? Only one in 5 years! People aren't doing this because we need rubber tires for wgt or spec tires for 12th scale, Its because what we do is completely impractical. The track is too small for some one to drive around at 17.5 speeds and have a good time until they do it for a very long time. In off road the car is on a bigger track, the cars are more durable and for the beginner the setup does not need to be as critical to get around the track. If you slow down the cars in on road the setup wont have to be so important either so now you can have a less skilled driver and mechanic rub elbows with guys who are more skilled. I can keep going on but that's all for now.
Paul C.
There are so little people racing on road and so many different classes that the fields are so thin and there is not enough people to separate the skilled guys and less skilled guys. Adding more classes isn't going to solve the problem it just makes it worse. The cars are too fast and the tracks are too small even in the stock classes to promote good clean racing. Every main I watched was a complete hack fest, from stock to mod. Even the fastest and best 2 17.5 12th scale guys at this race were taking each other out (not purposely I don't think) and that was the slowest non "funster" class.*
When I raced off road this season many times there were 50-100 people in a class. Racing in your main was actually fun because you always raced people of the same skill level. The way on road is now, there are only a select few that can handle the speeds of 17.5 through mod on that tight of a track and be able to race at a high level. Here is another example, I raced mod tc, I like mod and I want to go fast. Nothing wrong with that or anyone else to do it. The problem is you have Keven Hebert, Paul Lemieux and Andrew Hardman who are super star drivers in a 10 car field of less skilled drivers on an 8 second lap, That is a car every .8 seconds. I started mid pack, after I got bounced around in the beginning I was already being lapped so I had to move over, then a group of us got racing together, Mike Haynes, Josh Hohnstein , Cody Woods Drew Ellis and we got a good battle going, Then comes Keven, we all have to stop our fun to let the him go and then another lap later Andrew. By this time our race got spread out and we were just circulating the track, moving over and not getting to have real racing. Had there been more people of the same skill as the top guys and more of us less skilled guys, the fast guys would have been in the a-main and we would have been in the B or C, and guess what, we would have had great racing and actually had a good time! 10 cars on a 8 second track is too much. In off road you have 30 sec laps with 15 guys, that's a car ever 2 seconds on average. At the worlds in 12th scale there was some of the best on road racing I have had in a long time, why because there were enough people to fill all the mains with the same skill level and we were able to race each other, In the summer in off road weather I was in the A main, or F main I always had some one the same speed to race with and have a good time. Not get smashed by lower skilled drivers, or have to keep moving over for guys much faster than me.*
Now on to the speeds, Right now 17.5 12th scale is faster than 2009 mod lap time wise than our nats in the hotel at the Gate. The fastest lap time on that same foot print in mod 12th was 9.2. Now 17.5 is going 8.4! To be able to have good racing the speeds need to slow down to when racing was fun and very competitive, even way before 2009. Lap times need to be over 9 seconds so guys can control their cars and even a less skilled driver can compete with a more skilled driver because the speed is much slower and car setup and skill is less important. That actually gives more people a chance of doing good, not by adding another class.*
On to another issue, The Gate is in a pretty busy shopping center that has traffic all day, car shows in the summer every week. How many guys do you think started racing that just walked in or were gear heads at the car show? Only one in 5 years! People aren't doing this because we need rubber tires for wgt or spec tires for 12th scale, Its because what we do is completely impractical. The track is too small for some one to drive around at 17.5 speeds and have a good time until they do it for a very long time. In off road the car is on a bigger track, the cars are more durable and for the beginner the setup does not need to be as critical to get around the track. If you slow down the cars in on road the setup wont have to be so important either so now you can have a less skilled driver and mechanic rub elbows with guys who are more skilled. I can keep going on but that's all for now.
Paul C.
Last edited by nwagner; 10-07-2015 at 03:34 PM.
10-07-2015, 01:25 PM
#4
Besides the speeds, there needs some paring down of the classes. At the HC this weekend there was 12 A mains. Way too many in my opinion. But of course I come from the times of stock and mod, that is it. We did separate new drivers though and put them in a rookie/sportsman class with break out levels. Once you broke out, you ran stock or mod. And I was always a believer in if you win a stock national more than once, you need to move up to mod. What is the challenge if you stay put? Race with the 4 or 5 others that can keep up with you?
10-07-2015, 01:57 PM
#5
Anybody that knows me knows I love to race any class that I can, but with that said I can't at all see the need to have 10+ classes at a major event. I think a drop in voltage (LiFe packs) in the Touring car classes would be a good idea while leaving the rest of the rules the same. But that's just the beginning... I could go on all day about this topic...lol
10-07-2015, 02:44 PM
#6
USGT has been a "safe haven" class for those of us that have no interest in Stock TC. It's the right speed for a fun class. If we were really being honest with ourselves, we'd acknowledge that 25.5 on 2S is just about the same speed as 27T brushed on NiMH cells at the very end. 21.5 is definitely quicker, and very close to 19T brushed speeds.
10-07-2015, 02:48 PM
#7
When 12th scale was big it was just 12th scale.. No 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, mod, ect. I think if there was just one 12th scale class again it would be back to a huge class. I'd vote 10.5 blinky on a green rear with a double blue front spec tire. For those who say that would be to fast or hard you should remember that racing isn't supposed to be easy and for the mod guys it's what's best for the hobby. 17.5 1S has gotten stupid on having to buy batteries and motors where 10.5 makes it more of a drivers class again.
10-07-2015, 02:49 PM
#8
Maybe a switch to 380 size motors.
10-07-2015, 03:04 PM
#9
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
I agree with having just 1 class for 1/12th, and blinky 10.5 does sound like a good choice. I also agree with Mike's suggestion of a spec tire.
In the sedan arena things have gotten borderline silly these days what with way too many classes being offered. 17.5, VTA, USGT, 13.5, and mod. Really? 5 different classes for the same type of chassis? Call me old Skool or stubborn, but IMO it's just not necessary for everybody to go home with a meaningless trophy from a watered down class with only a small handful of competitors in each division.
In the sedan arena things have gotten borderline silly these days what with way too many classes being offered. 17.5, VTA, USGT, 13.5, and mod. Really? 5 different classes for the same type of chassis? Call me old Skool or stubborn, but IMO it's just not necessary for everybody to go home with a meaningless trophy from a watered down class with only a small handful of competitors in each division.
10-07-2015, 03:16 PM
#10
Interesting topic and I applaud you for bringing it to the spot light in such a professional manner.
I agree with what you have said and can sympathize with you and many others who have had to sacrifice racing in order to stay out of the way of the faster guys.
Yes. If there were more people running the class the mains would be full of "like talented" drivers and the racing would be more fun, more fulfilling for the drivers and more inviting to those thinking of joining our ranks.
Talks of slowing cars down, restricting batteries or motors and even spec tire rules can all have their place but the fact will still remain, drivers, as the format for raceing stands now, will still have to make way for the faster guys in their mains as pointed out earlier.
There is a rule in F1 (full size) that could remedy this if implemented. It would have to be thought through and maybe tweeked for practical reasons but I think this would make for better, more enjoyable racing for all.
The rule is this,
All drivers in the main must be within 107% of the lead (poll sitter) drivers time. All others below this would fall into the next main.
For practical reasons as I said this rule may need to be tweeked by the organizers but its something that would eliminate drivers having to sacrifice their racing just to keep from interfering with others who are way faster yet still in the same main.
What do you think?
Regards
BM
I agree with what you have said and can sympathize with you and many others who have had to sacrifice racing in order to stay out of the way of the faster guys.
Yes. If there were more people running the class the mains would be full of "like talented" drivers and the racing would be more fun, more fulfilling for the drivers and more inviting to those thinking of joining our ranks.
Talks of slowing cars down, restricting batteries or motors and even spec tire rules can all have their place but the fact will still remain, drivers, as the format for raceing stands now, will still have to make way for the faster guys in their mains as pointed out earlier.
There is a rule in F1 (full size) that could remedy this if implemented. It would have to be thought through and maybe tweeked for practical reasons but I think this would make for better, more enjoyable racing for all.
The rule is this,
All drivers in the main must be within 107% of the lead (poll sitter) drivers time. All others below this would fall into the next main.
For practical reasons as I said this rule may need to be tweeked by the organizers but its something that would eliminate drivers having to sacrifice their racing just to keep from interfering with others who are way faster yet still in the same main.
What do you think?
Regards
BM
10-07-2015, 03:21 PM
#11
Sorry for the long post earlier but another thought I had too was this rule could invite mixed class racing?
Mains compiled purly of cars of similar lap times?
Does it really matter if one class car is racing a different class of car if they are running very similar lap times?
Would make for some interesting racing and events wouldn't it?
Just a thought.
Regards
BM
Mains compiled purly of cars of similar lap times?
Does it really matter if one class car is racing a different class of car if they are running very similar lap times?
Would make for some interesting racing and events wouldn't it?
Just a thought.
Regards
BM
10-07-2015, 03:32 PM
#12
Interesting topic and I applaud you for bringing it to the spot light in such a professional manner.
I agree with what you have said and can sympathize with you and many others who have had to sacrifice racing in order to stay out of the way of the faster guys.
Yes. If there were more people running the class the mains would be full of "like talented" drivers and the racing would be more fun, more fulfilling for the drivers and more inviting to those thinking of joining our ranks.
Talks of slowing cars down, restricting batteries or motors and even spec tire rules can all have their place but the fact will still remain, drivers, as the format for raceing stands now, will still have to make way for the faster guys in their mains as pointed out earlier.
There is a rule in F1 (full size) that could remedy this if implemented. It would have to be thought through and maybe tweeked for practical reasons but I think this would make for better, more enjoyable racing for all.
The rule is this,
All drivers in the main must be within 107% of the lead (poll sitter) drivers time. All others below this would fall into the next main.
For practical reasons as I said this rule may need to be tweeked by the organizers but its something that would eliminate drivers having to sacrifice their racing just to keep from interfering with others who are way faster yet still in the same main.
What do you think?
Regards
BM
I agree with what you have said and can sympathize with you and many others who have had to sacrifice racing in order to stay out of the way of the faster guys.
Yes. If there were more people running the class the mains would be full of "like talented" drivers and the racing would be more fun, more fulfilling for the drivers and more inviting to those thinking of joining our ranks.
Talks of slowing cars down, restricting batteries or motors and even spec tire rules can all have their place but the fact will still remain, drivers, as the format for raceing stands now, will still have to make way for the faster guys in their mains as pointed out earlier.
There is a rule in F1 (full size) that could remedy this if implemented. It would have to be thought through and maybe tweeked for practical reasons but I think this would make for better, more enjoyable racing for all.
The rule is this,
All drivers in the main must be within 107% of the lead (poll sitter) drivers time. All others below this would fall into the next main.
For practical reasons as I said this rule may need to be tweeked by the organizers but its something that would eliminate drivers having to sacrifice their racing just to keep from interfering with others who are way faster yet still in the same main.
What do you think?
Regards
BM
I think part of the solution is to get the very fast 17.5 guys to start mixing it up with the Mod guys, but that leap to open mod on carpet is almost insurmountable. That was the theory in slowing "stock" and "mod" down so the 17.5 guys always at the top would be left with almost no choice but to advance on but wouldn't have as much of a difficult time doing it.
10-07-2015, 03:35 PM
#13
17.5, VTA, USGT, 13.5, and mod. Really? 5 different classes for the same type of chassis? Call me old Skool or stubborn, but IMO it's just not necessary for everybody to go home with a meaningless trophy from a watered down class with only a small handful of competitors in each division.
10-07-2015, 03:40 PM
#14
When 12th scale was big it was just 12th scale.. No 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, mod, ect. I think if there was just one 12th scale class again it would be back to a huge class. I'd vote 10.5 blinky on a green rear with a double blue front spec tire. For those who say that would be to fast or hard you should remember that racing isn't supposed to be easy and for the mod guys it's what's best for the hobby. 17.5 1S has gotten stupid on having to buy batteries and motors where 10.5 makes it more of a drivers class again.
I really think 1/12 would be a great class to get new drivers into racing. The cost to enter can be cheaper (if done right), and if the tires are spec'd to give new drivers decent control, I think it could work -- especially on the smaller carpet tracks.
