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Old 12-08-2005, 11:04 AM   #76
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Default Ideas for Slapmaster Setup

Brian,

After reading your setup, I wanted to give you some thoughts regarding chassis options. These are opinions and some people may disagree with this advice, but it has worked for me for many years.

The rear width of your 1/12th scale car should always be run at ROAR maximum, which is 172mm. This gives you the most stable car and helps reduce the tendency to traction roll. My goal is always a very balanced consistent car, and rear width plays a bigger role that most people think. Also, re-verify rear width after tire/wheel changes because each company (TRC, Parma, Jaco, BSR) has different wheel offsets. For example, Parma's require 3/16" +/- of shimming to get to proper rear width with my setup. It's a good idea to also check left/right rear width from the center of the chassis to ensure equal distribution.

Your T-bar setup sounds very stiff for mod racing. I have not had good success with stiff t-bars and mod motors, especially not with the torque of the brushless setups. I prefer to use a .063-.067 t-bar made by PRC here in Denver. Doug at PRC has great quality components and cuts my t-bars to spec, which lets me tailor my setup. As of today, I'm driving a custom .065 blue fiberglass with 2 spacers between the motor pod, 1 .020 under the front pivot, and a TI 9x2 on CRC carpet with JTGripper.

Regarding side dampening and springs, it sounds like you may be too heavy for mod, depending upon dampening tube style. I usually run 1K-10K fluid in my CRC aluminum dampening tubes (full length large models, and weight of oil will change by model/style). My current setup is 3K in the side tubes with no side springs.

For me, Pink Rears (sidewalls glued for chunking) with D-Pink fronts (sidewalls glued for chunking) are always the most consistent. I've methodically tried other setups on CRC (lot's of time to practice lately...Don't ask...), and haven't found any combinations that are as consistent and balanced. I have not tried the new "wraps", and will not until I deplete my current tire inventory.

Shock - same setup, but silver spring. The silver spring is a nice comprimise for off-power steering on low-medium bite tracks. I go up to blue for higher bite, but we rarely see a "traction groove" at our track. As you stated, shock length is important for droop and power application.

With this setup, my car is very consistent and simple to drive, which is important to me. I'm sure the people you're traveling with will have quite a bit of input regarding setups, so take this with a grain of salt.

Glad to send pictures or offer other thoughts if it helps.

Eric
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:36 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoldman
Brian,

After reading your setup, I wanted to give you some thoughts regarding chassis options. These are opinions and some people may disagree with this advice, but it has worked for me for many years.

The rear width of your 1/12th scale car should always be run at ROAR maximum, which is 172mm. This gives you the most stable car and helps reduce the tendency to traction roll. My goal is always a very balanced consistent car, and rear width plays a bigger role that most people think. Also, re-verify rear width after tire/wheel changes because each company (TRC, Parma, Jaco, BSR) has different wheel offsets. For example, Parma's require 3/16" +/- of shimming to get to proper rear width with my setup. It's a good idea to also check left/right rear width from the center of the chassis to ensure equal distribution.

Your T-bar setup sounds very stiff for mod racing. I have not had good success with stiff t-bars and mod motors, especially not with the torque of the brushless setups. I prefer to use a .063-.067 t-bar made by PRC here in Denver. Doug at PRC has great quality components and cuts my t-bars to spec, which lets me tailor my setup. As of today, I'm driving a custom .065 blue fiberglass with 2 spacers between the motor pod, 1 .020 under the front pivot, and a TI 9x2 on CRC carpet with JTGripper.

Regarding side dampening and springs, it sounds like you may be too heavy for mod, depending upon dampening tube style. I usually run 1K-10K fluid in my CRC aluminum dampening tubes (full length large models, and weight of oil will change by model/style). My current setup is 3K in the side tubes with no side springs.

For me, Pink Rears (sidewalls glued for chunking) with D-Pink fronts (sidewalls glued for chunking) are always the most consistent. I've methodically tried other setups on CRC (lot's of time to practice lately...Don't ask...), and haven't found any combinations that are as consistent and balanced. I have not tried the new "wraps", and will not until I deplete my current tire inventory.

Shock - same setup, but silver spring. The silver spring is a nice comprimise for off-power steering on low-medium bite tracks. I go up to blue for higher bite, but we rarely see a "traction groove" at our track. As you stated, shock length is important for droop and power application.

With this setup, my car is very consistent and simple to drive, which is important to me. I'm sure the people you're traveling with will have quite a bit of input regarding setups, so take this with a grain of salt.

Glad to send pictures or offer other thoughts if it helps.

Eric
rcoldman nice post. I thought you would normally run a stiffer t-bar on carpet? I mean't to ask Brian this question last night. I have been having a heck of a time when I add springs 18/22 inside my dampening tubes. Whenever I am entering a turn my car just flips. Now maybe it is my driving style? Once I remove the springs the car is smooth as butter.
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Old 12-08-2005, 10:14 PM   #78
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Ah, the famous t-bar. That one mysterious suspension component that does not apply to any real world race car. In the past, I have used the thickest t-bar that I can that traction will allow. If you have lower grip or a track that is not getting a lot of use, then you might have to use a thinner t-bar or if it is bumpy. We have a pretty flat track (I floated all the bumps before we laid the carpet!) and get pretty regular use. I would classify our track as medium in grip... occasionally getting to med-high. Tracks like Snowbirds or Cleveland are definitely High... especially with Paragon. With that in mind, I try to keep the car from rolling too much to keep it off the carpet and to maintain corner speed. The idea behind the side springs came from a carbon fiber t-bar that I made that was quite stiff torsionally. I went back to the readily available fiber glass t-bars that were hanging on the wall and added side springs that I could tune up or down depending on the amount of rear traction/steering that I needed. This will always vary depending on the track that I visit. Allan does not seem to need the side springs in stock. When I used a particular tire set up in stock, I needed them. He might have a different tire set up and therefore, does not require them. That's OK. What ever makes low laps at your own hands is the most important. Eric; I am using 50wt in my side tubes, not 50,000wt. I was surprised just how stiff 50 wt was in the Hyperdrives... so I just stay with it. I think that I tried 10,000 once and it felt like I glued them together. Really the moral to the story to identify what the car needs and to apply it to get the desired results.

I need to go pack up for this weekend. For any interested, there maybe some info on the Northwest Racers page, under NW onroad indoor series thread. Check us out!

Brian
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Old 12-08-2005, 10:51 PM   #79
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Hey Brian,

I think I know why the Xray 50wt feels pretty heavy for 50wt. Xray oil is generally thicker it seems than Associated oil. I remember Xray 30wt was close to about Associated 50wt. So maybe the xray 50 is closer to Associated 70wt? who knows?? lol

-Korey
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:47 AM   #80
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Default Rally Call for all 12th Scalers

Hey Gang,
Good news from Stockton. They have just added 19 Turn to the 12 scale class at Carpet Nat's. This means if you are a 12th scale only driver, you can now enter two classes; Stock & 19T or Mod & 19T. This will be a lot of fun now, we just need your support since the track host went through the effort to add this class. Let's go racing!

Brian
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:37 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapmaster6000
Hey Gang,
Good news from Stockton. They have just added 19 Turn to the 12 scale class at Carpet Nat's. This means if you are a 12th scale only driver, you can now enter two classes; Stock & 19T or Mod & 19T. This will be a lot of fun now, we just need your support since the track host went through the effort to add this class. Let's go racing!

Brian
Brian,

Welcome to California!
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Old 12-19-2005, 11:07 PM   #82
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I haven't been to Cali to race since Sept. Hope I remember where I left it.

I am looking forward to the Nat's and show casing Weylin in the MS2.3. He is already kicking my butt with the set up that I put on his car by a 1/4 of a second! I'm so impressed with him. No wonder Schumacher has him under their wings.

For anyone interested, I have a fresh batch of thrust bearings ready to go. If you are getting tired of replacing those 1/4x3/8" bearings in your diff, upgrade to my thrust kit and never worry about your diff again in the near future. I am running two diffs now that are pushing two years worth of racing on the same balls and plates. The only thing that I change will be the spur gear if I don't get out of the corner soon enough!

Brian; Slapmaster Tools, www.slapmastertools.com, [email protected]
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:45 AM   #83
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has anyone tried the MS on asphalt
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:47 AM   #84
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I'd be willing to bet Brian tried it on asphalt today...
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:38 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik
I'd be willing to bet Brian tried it on asphalt today...
Not only did he try it, but the car looked very good, and was very fast. Almost beating Sushi Boy's fastest lap! Korey. Come down and race Dan and Brian tonight
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Old 01-12-2006, 01:54 AM   #86
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Hi All,
Just when you all thought that I was slipping off the radar, I'm back. Actually, I haven't gone anywhere. There has been lots of carpet testing, traction testing, set up testing... but so little of it has been worth reporting. Until now. There seems to be an unusual problem if you have the new CRC Fastrack Carpet and use exclusively TQ base traction compounds and run in a cool building. These three combinations will build up the TQ in the carpet and then make for difficult tractions conditions for 2wd cars. The cure has been to run some box fans in the evening to help the carpet evaporate. Some heat is going to be needed during race times. If it's too cool, the carpet will never get any better. And lastly, diversify the traction compounds used. Eventually our carpet got better and we got back to 12th scale racing. In the meantime, so many things were tried and some things were learned.

I did find that my MS2.3 really liked Parma purple/greys for stock and 19t racing. It worked well in mod too, but the Parma's seem to wear quickly. I also tested Jaco purple/greys only to find that they ran well for 6:30 minutes and then the car would radically change, usually getting too free. My buddy Paul would run Jaco's and not have this issue. Since the carpet was the same for both of us, there must be something just different enough in his link car the let him run the Jaco's without any troubles. Now don't get me wrong, my car is still very good as it now has track records in stock, 19t and mod. But I am always on the look out for "more".

This leads me into my Dremel adventures. I have been wanting to play around with lower pivot locations for some time. Tuesday, I broke out a Dremel to a good chassis and cut a slot the size of a t-bar out of the bottom of the chassis. I machined up a bracket to hang a t-bar flush to the bottom for the rear pivot. I took a t-bar and counter sunk all the holes so that I could use flat heads to fasten the hardward to it. The rear pod plate now had to be mounted on top of the t-bar, therefore I had to machine the motor plate and left side so that the motor would not be raised. The rest of the chassis is conventional MS2.3... if you would call it conventional. So now the t-bar is literaly on the bottom of the car.

I loaded it up with electronics and a 19t motor and Parma Speed 8. The goal here was to test the effects of grip with a lower pivot point. To make the test interesting, I used the Jaco tires that would only last for 6:30 in my MS2.3. I was really quite surprised that a car that was built out of my leftovers and cosmetically not so perfect looking equipment was turning equal times as my well tuned 2.3. The car did change very slightly around 4 minutes, but then finished the run without any other further changes. I was going to run my 2.3 for the heat races, but then decided to keep running the "X-Car" to see what it's got. I was able to run the Jaco tires for 8 minutes without significant changes. I missed my course record by a 1/4 of a second... twice! Both times being my fault. Again, I was pleasantly surpised. I lent my 2.3 to Adam Malloy who is a tallented driver to run during the evening. He got in the last heat as we were not ready for the first. He had to do some adjusting, but quickly got the hang of the car. For the main, he was dialed. I made a mistake on the 2nd lap and Adam snatched the lead away from us all. He almost checked out, but I was able to slowly real him back in. We got to run close for a few minutes to size up each other. In the end, I got around for the win, minus the lap I screwed up at the 2nd lap. What I proved is that the lower pivot opened up some possibilities.

Will you be able to buy the X-Car? Probably not, unless you have a really thick wallet. So many parts have been modified it's likely I would have to sell a complete car, built. And it's only in it's proto-type stages. I will continue to test with it and refine it. If it holds up well, I may even use it at Carpet Nat's.

I still have lots of Diff Thrust kits, foam bumpers and MS conversion kits. Now would be a real good time to get these items before the Nat's rush.

Brian
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:15 AM   #87
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your scaring me Brian. dont turn into xray and put out a new car every 6 months

are you going to be at the track friday? i may need your help on a few things to get ready for the series race.
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:26 AM   #88
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Don't worry about me putting out a new car every 6 months. While I carved this one out in 5 1/2 hours, it's not what I want the car to look like. I will be at the bottom of 75+ hours of mold work just to make the chassis, plus the other time to create the other parts. This car is just a test bed for future of the MS line. Actually, the flush t-bar concept has been floating around in the grey matter for well over a year. I should post some pics, it would blow you guys away! The lowest part of the car is the center of the chassis. Now that the rear plate is above the t-bar, it appears that it has 6mm of ride height when infact the motor is still in the same location as before.

Friday is so far away and my wife just left town for a 12 days. For all I know, I could be in jail by that time

What do you need help with?
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:30 AM   #89
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just ghot myself a 2.3 so i might need some help with refine work
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:33 AM   #90
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I see..........

No problem with help. I have set up sheets and anything I know, can be yours just by asking. What time Fri? You can email me too: [email protected]

bb
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