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Old 03-15-2005, 05:02 PM   #61
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Eddie, you need to realize that 99% of us don't care what the tops guys at Novak have.... WE will NEVER run against them, PERIOD!!! We want to go to our local track and play with our toy cars.... These ARE TOY's!!!!

My opinion is it's about time someone at Roar grew a set of balls.... Face it, the biggest oponent to brushless is trinity.... I say screw them.... I can't wait to see the big T's entry into brushless especially after their adds denouncing them....
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
Not pushing a few buttons, having an engineer with a laptop plugged into you car to change the whole "mapping" of the speed control, similar to a Formula 1 team.

Oooohhh...you mean like with THIS or THIS?

Seriously guys...you need to get a grip. I see guys every week at the track messing on laptops. For those of you "fast guys" who are always looking for that little edge, you should be able to sell your dyno (or lathe, or brush serrator or can zapper or field meters) to pay for a used laptop.

For the rest of us "slow guys" who just want to race and have fun without all the drama...IMO, it's a good deal. I run my GT-7 on a factory program and same for my SS4300...I don't see how it would be any different in the future.

This reminds me of all the pissing and moaning in the mid-80's when the 5.0 Mustang went EFI and all the old-timers were complaining that the performance era was over (again) and that nobody would be able to work on their own cars.

Screw carburetors, screw brushes.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:16 PM   #63
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Then what are you so concerned with? If all you want to do is go to the local track and play with your car, what's stopping you?

But for those us that have a vested interest in racing and being competitive, a fair and balanced set of rules is the cornerstone of that. What ROAR did was neither fair nor balanced.

This rule that ROAR put into place doesn't affect the 99% of you that are just looking to have a good time, but it directly affects the 1% that ROAR itself governs.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:17 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Eddie, you need to realize that 99% of us don't care what the tops guys at Novak have.... WE will NEVER run against them, PERIOD!!! We want to go to our local track and play with our toy cars.... These ARE TOY's!!!!


AMEN!
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
I can plug 2 of my motorcycles into my laptop and read timing, feul curve and other various settings throughout the entire RPM range.... Think it isn't that easy??? It is....

I'm sorry it's going to hurt the little motor tuners out there but it will help the rest of the hobby....
Well said. I'm no expert, but of course, I HAVE to give my 2_.. So what if they allow brushless??? Is it really going to ruin your hobby experience? It's not like they're getting rid of brushed motor competition for good! It's just they added another division. It's simple. Doesn't mean that brushless is now taking over or whatever... But remember, this is my opinion, and of course, it's my 2...
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:21 PM   #66
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I bet a brushed motor wins this weekend
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
Oooohhh...you mean like with THIS or THIS?
I dont mean like setting a drive frequency, a dead zone, and drag brake. Im talking of millions of steps in the throttle curve in a competitive speed control that will no longer have a thermal shut down where if you program it correctly your car will be ballistic but if is a little bit off it will melt the speed control to the ground.

Seriously guys, why do you think no one has a setup that is currently competitive with a modified brush motor? It isn't that the motors won't keep up. They can't get the speed controls to live at that power. They will continue to make progress but in racing, we will always push that envelope of performance versus reliability.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:22 PM   #68
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This discussion seems to be getting a little confusing and maybe opinions are being misunderstood a little. There seems to be several issues here:

1.) The short notice approval of brushless systems by ROAR, seeming to contradict their own rules.

2.) The pros and cons of brushless, both to racing and the consumer.

3.) The fairness of ROAR/IFMAR brushed and brushless rules.

To those criticizing the motor maker's here, I believe they are complaining mostly about issue 1 currently (justifiably), so cut them a little slack.

And I still don't get why you people are trying to tech something not covered in the rules (software profiles).
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:30 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
This rule that ROAR put into place doesn't affect the 99% of you that are just looking to have a good time, but it directly affects the 1% that ROAR itself governs.
It does affect us because all the "wannabee Kinwalds" think that everyone at the track should follow ROAR's rules for motors.

I could really care less about the 1% professional group. You guys are supposedly doing it for a living in order to sell stuff to US. Deal with it...that's racing, right?

It's not about you guys...it's about selling stuff to US..and US having a good time.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:44 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
I dont mean like setting a drive frequency, a dead zone, and drag brake. Im talking of millions of steps in the throttle curve in a competitive speed control that will no longer have a thermal shut down where if you program it correctly your car will be ballistic but if is a little bit off it will melt the speed control to the ground.
There isn't any magic to the whole thing. Big deal of you change a frequency...you can do that now with good brushed ESCs. There really isn't a lot of difference. make the power go through the ESC (in time) to move the rotor. You still only get battery voltage- resistance. You can hit all the keys you want and that's not gonna change one bit.

These motors (3-phase AC) have been around for decades. Just look at any lathe, mill or drillpress motor in a shop. They're more dependable and more efficient...and I can't imagine why that's a bad thing.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:47 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by 403forbidden
right on!

ROAR made a good decision here!!

All the professional "motor tuners" are shaking in their pants.

Now, ROAR should keep the momentum going and make all those professional "battery matchers" shake in their pants too!!
Your kidding right?
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:55 PM   #72
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For the all the racing that is done in the US very little of it is at a ROAR sanctioned event with every Roar rule followed. I would bet that before this discussion about the rule change most of the brushless fans were running them and having a good time. Being an outside reader of this thread and a die hard local racer it is very obvious that the groups on this thread are talking to brick walls.....

The two thoughts that I read from all of this is:

1. Roar changing the rules, mid year with a short lead time before an important national event. The rule changes are not in line with standards of the past in terms of motor submissions and avalbility to racers. I did not hear Rick or Eddie say that they did not like brushless or that they would not produce them...but that the timing was very poor and in the thought of fair play not a very good time to hand down this.

2. The brushless fans are on hear singing the praises of them. They are excited about them being roar legal. Thats cool. It is a victory of sorts for you as a fan of the brushless. But what Rick, Eddie and some of the others are discussing is more from the angle that ROAR dropped the ball not that Brushless is a bad thing. People have also made things personal with their comments about motor tuners and such. Not a great way to promote a good discussion on what really can be something that in the long run changes the way we all race.

I do not see Trinity, Orion, ect as the evil empire but as companies that have brought me many hours of enjoyment and good close friends. Many of them will be supplying the brushless systems too I bet.

A good discussion is needed on this topic but I think people should also take the time to read statements before they attack.

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Old 03-15-2005, 05:55 PM   #73
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Of all the guys for the brushless how many of you are current roar members that attend regional and national level races.
It would be ok at a club level where most of you bashers play, and we're ok with that. But to push on us that attend these races wether we are paid or not is'nt right.
I dont remember who posted it but yeah they are toy cars but the guys that race at the national levels see this hobby as competitive softball is to thousands of people in the world. Its racing regardless of scale.

If you want to play then play! We the hard core guys would agree, but dont push it on the racers that actually race at a higher level.

And you dont need to be microsoft to develope a back door or a hidden profile that wont be detected.


Old schoolers as you called some of us arent against it! Just do it in a fair manor. Open brushed motor rules and let manufactures use the rare earth magnetes and higher number rotors that will be allowed for brushless. Couple that with the latest brushes and you will have a different look on the brushless system.

Like I said if you want to play go ahead. NO ONE SAID YOU COULDNT!
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Werner
For the all the racing that is done in the US very little of it is at a ROAR sanctioned event with every Roar rule followed. I would bet that before this discussion about the rule change most of the brushless fans were running them and having a good time. Being an outside reader of this thread and a die hard local racer it is very obvious that the groups on this thread are talking to brick walls.....

The two thoughts that I read from all of this is:

1. Roar changing the rules, mid year with a short lead time before an important national event. The rule changes are not in line with standards of the past in terms of motor submissions and avalbility to racers. I did not hear Rick or Eddie say that they did not like brushless or that they would not produce them...but that the timing was very poor and in the thought of fair play not a very good time to hand down this.

2. The brushless fans are on hear singing the praises of them. They are excited about them being roar legal. Thats cool. It is a victory of sorts for you as a fan of the brushless. But what Rick, Eddie and some of the others are discussing is more from the angle that ROAR dropped the ball not that Brushless is a bad thing. People have also made things personal with their comments about motor tuners and such. Not a great way to promote a good discussion on what really can be something that in the long run changes the way we all race.

I do not see Trinity, Orion, ect as the evil empire but as companies that have brought me many hours of enjoyment and good close friends. Many of them will be supplying the brushless systems too I bet.

A good discussion is needed on this topic but I think people should also take the time to read statements before they attack.

Jeff Werner

Trinity started the attack on Brushless when they came out with those negative ads.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:05 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
This reminds me of all the pissing and moaning in the mid-80's when the 5.0 Mustang went EFI and all the old-timers were complaining that the performance era was over (again) and that nobody would be able to work on their own cars.
Well think about it, back in the late 60's - early 70's, horsepower was EVERYTHING. And when Ford decided to take the Mustang, and give it the EFI, obviously people were complaining, because they dropped power excessively. All because of those naturalists who are trying to "save" the environment. NEWS FLASH, it won't happen! I mean, they're trying to reduce emissions, and granted, they're doing an OKAY job, but honestly, a car is STILL going to produce enough emissions to "destroy" the environment. The car's producing carbon monoxide. No matter what you do, it will still produce carbon monoxide. They don't understand that the burning of the oil, fuel, etc. is producing these emissions. So when they went to EFI, obviously people were pissed, they couldn't go as fast. They saw it as: "a way to decrease the amount of carbon monoxide and live in a healthier world." I mean, now-a-days, EFI is a big thing, beacuse the technology for EFI has come a long way, people can get at least 600+hp from a car with EFI, and a catalayic converter. But back then, their technology was limited. It was a new thing they were trying out, and they needed to elaborate on it. Obviously they were going to piss and moan. If I was alive back then, I would too. Once the EFI hit the market, it brought the hi-performance car era significantly to somewhat of a halt. The on-board computer and the EFI did drastically reduce power. My neighbors '82 Vette, I think has a 350? 350's can usually make some nice power. With that stupid computer, catalayic converter, it makes 192 or less horsepower. And I don't need to get involved in the other technical things that decreased the power of the Corvette during that era. Back in '67, when they released the 427 Corvette, they made big power, and could go fast. The EFI on the Mustang did the exact opposite of the older Corvettes. Until those guys came along, figured out how to "work" with the EFI and on-board computers and still make power, thats when EFI started really showing it's strength. In the beginning, it was pretty much a dead beat.

This new brushless rule doesn't really affect me, but I'll give my opinion anyways, even if nobody asked for it. So, they now allow brushless... and I'm seeing some people whine about it. Okay, so they released this rule a few days before a national event. Is it that big of a deal? (keep in mind, my views on this topic are very simplistic...) Unless I'm missing something. Are they allowing brushless to run with modified brushed motors? Or are they in their own seperate division...??
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