ROAR Election
09-06-2012, 07:54 AM
#121
What is wrong with Pro drivers in stock? How is winning Stock an accomplishment when the better drivers have been removed from the mix? Not to mention the criteria of who is a "Pro" and who is not is somewhat arbitrary if one just looks at whether a person is sponsored or not. Do we really want to go down the road of quantifying how much sponsorship is acceptable vs. not? Do we then have the issue of mid to upper level drivers who aren't quite good enough for a full sponsorship choosing to pay for their own tires so they can still race the stock classes? Personally, I'd rather race and get my ass kicked by fast drivers. At least I have a decent chance of getting through the first turn without getting cleaned from behind.
09-06-2012, 07:55 AM
#122
Great post.
One thing I would like to see is the end of optional tuning rotors in the 17.5 classes. Everyone loved the idea of brushless because it was going to be so simple and CHEAPER. Hell, a tuning rotor costs more than a brushed stock motor did. We did away with dynamic timing because it was too complicated, fine. Now I say we find some way to seal the motors while still allowing for adjustable mechanical timing, so people don't have go through stators and rotors trying to find the hot combo.
One thing I would like to see is the end of optional tuning rotors in the 17.5 classes. Everyone loved the idea of brushless because it was going to be so simple and CHEAPER. Hell, a tuning rotor costs more than a brushed stock motor did. We did away with dynamic timing because it was too complicated, fine. Now I say we find some way to seal the motors while still allowing for adjustable mechanical timing, so people don't have go through stators and rotors trying to find the hot combo.
09-06-2012, 07:58 AM
#123
You sure about that part?
I don't really care about someone being sponsored in my class. The only time I really care is if somone is dominating a class so well that it can take away from having any chance of winning. Now the only thing in Ernie's statement I agree with is if you have won a championship in the class why not move up? I know the 17.5 class is tight and the difference between making one mistake and not was the difference between making the b-main or the a-main unless you were one of the top 4 guys.
Now the other thing is if your in a class where the turn out is rather small to begin with I understand not moving up due to lack of turn out.
I don't really care about someone being sponsored in my class. The only time I really care is if somone is dominating a class so well that it can take away from having any chance of winning. Now the only thing in Ernie's statement I agree with is if you have won a championship in the class why not move up? I know the 17.5 class is tight and the difference between making one mistake and not was the difference between making the b-main or the a-main unless you were one of the top 4 guys.
Now the other thing is if your in a class where the turn out is rather small to begin with I understand not moving up due to lack of turn out.
09-06-2012, 08:05 AM
#124
Excellent feedback and excellent points.
So do you think the following class(s) would help bring more into the hobby and increase entries?
"Stock"
17.5 motor - rotor limited 12.3mm, adjustable end bell timing, using the the current crop of approved motors
Speedo - See Approved VTA speedos
Body - Speed 6 (a good around body)
Weight - 1380
No Pro drivers
The top 10 from the nationals must move to Pro Stock.
(here is my problem with this, you will have sandbaggers....)
"Pro Stock"
What 17.5 Stock is today.
So do you think the following class(s) would help bring more into the hobby and increase entries?
"Stock"
17.5 motor - rotor limited 12.3mm, adjustable end bell timing, using the the current crop of approved motors
Speedo - See Approved VTA speedos
Body - Speed 6 (a good around body)
Weight - 1380
No Pro drivers
The top 10 from the nationals must move to Pro Stock.
(here is my problem with this, you will have sandbaggers....)
"Pro Stock"
What 17.5 Stock is today.
09-06-2012, 08:17 AM
#125
The "Pro" level drivers in stock seems to be a much bigger issue in on road than off road. I'm not sure why this is other than in off roar the "mod" classes are always looked as the premier classes, always has been. This should be the case in onroad but in my humble opinion the cars, tires, and other items haven't kept up with the horse power. In offroad we limit ourselves with the power due to traction constraints.
If you take a step back and look to see what a typical onroad car costs to get into, tools, setup equipment, knowledge,etc you'll be out a $1,000 faster than you'd think. Yes I know it "can" be done cheaper but let's face it, we all know that to get those final tenths you need top shelf equipment.
In offroad this isn't the case. You can buy any one of the RTR kits for AE, Team Durango, TLR and be competitive with the kit for under $300-400. Setup is less critical and your car looks just as cool as the top shelf kits.
To be honest I'd hoped that WGT was going to be the "slash" class for onroad. IT started out with look a like bodies like the Corvette, DB9, and others. The pan car chassis was simple, durable, and relatively inexpensive when compared to a full blown TC chassis. IT was simple and easy to setup for the average person. However it failed and many lost interest.
Since I'm old school stock to me is just that, stock. It was a skill level and often filled with weekend racers looking to hone their skills and get into the premier "Pro stock" class. This however has been cast aside with the "There's too many classes."
SO here's my suggestion:
Since SC is so strong and can easily hold it's own as a nationals, do it. SC Nationals. 2wd SC Stock(17.5 blinky), 2wd SC Pro Stock(17.5 boosted or 13.5 blinky), 2wd Mod. 4wd Mod and if the event can fill it, 1/8 Electric SC.
OG 1/10 offroad nats:
2wd Stock Buggy, 2wd Pro Stock Buggy, 2wd Mod Buggy, 4wd Mod, Racing truck Stock, Racing Truck Pro Stock, Racing Truck Mod.
1/8 Electric Nats:
1/8 Buggy, 1/8 Truggy.
Stock could be 17.5 blinky. Pro stock could be 17.5 boosted or 13.5 blinky. My reasoning and suggestion for 17.5 boosted to be the Pro stock class it saves the user potential costs to move into the next class. He/she could dabble back and forth while getting comfortable,etc. Mod is mod, leave it alone.
If something like this were to be done "Stock" is for non sponsored drivers. This means NO chassis support, no power sponsor, no tire sponsor, nothing.
Pro stock would be limited to no more than 50% chassis sponsorship. Battery and tire are open for support,etc. This is the stepping stone class to mod...
Mod is mod, leave it alone.
To keep everyone honest, race team managers would provide a roster prior to a Nationals which will be reviewed by ROAR and if need be posted for public knowledge.
Any rules, issues or other ROAR business that affects its members should be transparent and made public or member knowledge, no cloak and dagger crap.
I know this is a long post but having been in this hobby a long time. I think for ROAR and racing to move forward and prosper it's going to take the effort of many and the work of us all. Anyone can point out a problem, the hard work is finding a solution.
If you take a step back and look to see what a typical onroad car costs to get into, tools, setup equipment, knowledge,etc you'll be out a $1,000 faster than you'd think. Yes I know it "can" be done cheaper but let's face it, we all know that to get those final tenths you need top shelf equipment.
In offroad this isn't the case. You can buy any one of the RTR kits for AE, Team Durango, TLR and be competitive with the kit for under $300-400. Setup is less critical and your car looks just as cool as the top shelf kits.
To be honest I'd hoped that WGT was going to be the "slash" class for onroad. IT started out with look a like bodies like the Corvette, DB9, and others. The pan car chassis was simple, durable, and relatively inexpensive when compared to a full blown TC chassis. IT was simple and easy to setup for the average person. However it failed and many lost interest.
Since I'm old school stock to me is just that, stock. It was a skill level and often filled with weekend racers looking to hone their skills and get into the premier "Pro stock" class. This however has been cast aside with the "There's too many classes."
SO here's my suggestion:
Since SC is so strong and can easily hold it's own as a nationals, do it. SC Nationals. 2wd SC Stock(17.5 blinky), 2wd SC Pro Stock(17.5 boosted or 13.5 blinky), 2wd Mod. 4wd Mod and if the event can fill it, 1/8 Electric SC.
OG 1/10 offroad nats:
2wd Stock Buggy, 2wd Pro Stock Buggy, 2wd Mod Buggy, 4wd Mod, Racing truck Stock, Racing Truck Pro Stock, Racing Truck Mod.
1/8 Electric Nats:
1/8 Buggy, 1/8 Truggy.
Stock could be 17.5 blinky. Pro stock could be 17.5 boosted or 13.5 blinky. My reasoning and suggestion for 17.5 boosted to be the Pro stock class it saves the user potential costs to move into the next class. He/she could dabble back and forth while getting comfortable,etc. Mod is mod, leave it alone.
If something like this were to be done "Stock" is for non sponsored drivers. This means NO chassis support, no power sponsor, no tire sponsor, nothing.
Pro stock would be limited to no more than 50% chassis sponsorship. Battery and tire are open for support,etc. This is the stepping stone class to mod...
Mod is mod, leave it alone.
To keep everyone honest, race team managers would provide a roster prior to a Nationals which will be reviewed by ROAR and if need be posted for public knowledge.
Any rules, issues or other ROAR business that affects its members should be transparent and made public or member knowledge, no cloak and dagger crap.
I know this is a long post but having been in this hobby a long time. I think for ROAR and racing to move forward and prosper it's going to take the effort of many and the work of us all. Anyone can point out a problem, the hard work is finding a solution.
09-06-2012, 08:23 AM
#126
Tech Master
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Great post.
One thing I would like to see is the end of optional tuning rotors in the 17.5 classes. Everyone loved the idea of brushless because it was going to be so simple and CHEAPER. Hell, a tuning rotor costs more than a brushed stock motor did. We did away with dynamic timing because it was too complicated, fine. Now I say we find some way to seal the motors while still allowing for adjustable mechanical timing, so people don't have go through stators and rotors trying to find the hot combo.
One thing I would like to see is the end of optional tuning rotors in the 17.5 classes. Everyone loved the idea of brushless because it was going to be so simple and CHEAPER. Hell, a tuning rotor costs more than a brushed stock motor did. We did away with dynamic timing because it was too complicated, fine. Now I say we find some way to seal the motors while still allowing for adjustable mechanical timing, so people don't have go through stators and rotors trying to find the hot combo.
09-06-2012, 08:37 AM
#127
You sure about that part?
I don't really care about someone being sponsored in my class. The only time I really care is if somone is dominating a class so well that it can take away from having any chance of winning. Now the only thing in Ernie's statement I agree with is if you have won a championship in the class why not move up? I know the 17.5 class is tight and the difference between making one mistake and not was the difference between making the b-main or the a-main unless you were one of the top 4 guys.
Now the other thing is if your in a class where the turn out is rather small to begin with I understand not moving up due to lack of turn out.
I don't really care about someone being sponsored in my class. The only time I really care is if somone is dominating a class so well that it can take away from having any chance of winning. Now the only thing in Ernie's statement I agree with is if you have won a championship in the class why not move up? I know the 17.5 class is tight and the difference between making one mistake and not was the difference between making the b-main or the a-main unless you were one of the top 4 guys.
Now the other thing is if your in a class where the turn out is rather small to begin with I understand not moving up due to lack of turn out.
A beginner class is fine but last I saw Stock does not mean beginner, it is simply a motor wind. Why should someone be moved out of a class they enjoy simply because they are good at it? To be consistant should we do it at all levels. Sorry Paul L, you are too good but unfortunately we don't have a class higher than mod. Go fly helicopters. We see this different in that I don't believe in whittling down the talent level to the point where I am eventually pushed to the top of the pack. I want to win but not at the expense of competition and sometimes the competition is hard or impossible to catch. Easy for me to accept but that is just me.
09-06-2012, 09:07 AM
#129
If something like this were to be done "Stock" is for non sponsored drivers. This means NO chassis support, no power sponsor, no tire sponsor, nothing.
Pro stock would be limited to no more than 50% chassis sponsorship. Battery and tire are open for support,etc. This is the stepping stone class to mod...
Pro stock would be limited to no more than 50% chassis sponsorship. Battery and tire are open for support,etc. This is the stepping stone class to mod...
Just sharing, but at the 2012 nationals the A-main had only 2 or 3 drivers that would been able to compete in Stock or Pro Stock.... and maybe 1 driver in 2011...
While I like most of you post and agree, the one problem is not everyone wants to run mod, in fact in on-road NOT many want to run mod.... They are happy with stock as we currently know it. Unlike off-road...
You hit the nail on the head with off-road, the traction and jumps are the great equalizer... In oval and on-road the animal is different.
Remember all the crying that occurred when we moved to LiPo and Brushless? And this increased entries on a local level... Sometimes you just have tune out the naysayers.
Remember my question was how to increase entries / membership at the local and national level (one supports the other....) and want do you think will do that? What changes do you think ROAR needs to make over the next 12 months to put the train back on the tracks, Yes it will take longer then 12 months, we have to start at some point.
Last edited by bvoltz; 09-06-2012 at 10:19 AM.
09-06-2012, 09:18 AM
#130
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
I think that before you move forward with proposals on who can race what class, you should define what a "Pro" is.
As an example, I like where Randy's definition is going. No Sponsors = Stock and "any" Sponsors = Pro Stock.
How do you keep the Manufactures on the level with this kind of seperation?
No advertising for "Stock" classes? No t-shirts, no stickers etc? Penalties for Manufactures caught sending "Sponsored" drivers into the Stock class?
As an example, I like where Randy's definition is going. No Sponsors = Stock and "any" Sponsors = Pro Stock.
How do you keep the Manufactures on the level with this kind of seperation?
No advertising for "Stock" classes? No t-shirts, no stickers etc? Penalties for Manufactures caught sending "Sponsored" drivers into the Stock class?
09-06-2012, 09:33 AM
#131
The manufacturers will have to work along side ROAR, period.
Sealing the motors is not necessary. Maintenance should be done. No tuning rotors, fine...but don't shorten the motors life by sealing.
Sealing the motors is not necessary. Maintenance should be done. No tuning rotors, fine...but don't shorten the motors life by sealing.
09-06-2012, 09:58 AM
#132
Have a dream ...
Lets make stock a entry level class again !
Retire 2w buggy stock , make it open 2w buggy ...
17.5 stock for Stadium truck & SC only ....
Sick of racing with us divided by motor's.
Half over in stock , half racing mod ...
Bring us back together , make racing more fun .
Lets make stock a entry level class again !
Retire 2w buggy stock , make it open 2w buggy ...
17.5 stock for Stadium truck & SC only ....
Sick of racing with us divided by motor's.
Half over in stock , half racing mod ...
Bring us back together , make racing more fun .
09-06-2012, 12:51 PM
#133
There is no such thing as stock. Never has been. Never will be.
Separating classes by stator winds is fine. Calling it stock is a waste of time because no matter what rule you put in someone will find a way around it and improve (modify!) their motor.
Entry level is fine, but I think it should be handled on the local level. At most tracks you will find that entry level means different things. ROAR should encourage entry level racing, but would have a hard time coming up with a national entry level class. What ROAR should do is encourage tighter rule enforcement for the upper level classes, and try to get racers to pick a class based on skill level, not which class they will do better in. If you don't race people better than you, then you will never get better.
Separating classes by stator winds is fine. Calling it stock is a waste of time because no matter what rule you put in someone will find a way around it and improve (modify!) their motor.
Entry level is fine, but I think it should be handled on the local level. At most tracks you will find that entry level means different things. ROAR should encourage entry level racing, but would have a hard time coming up with a national entry level class. What ROAR should do is encourage tighter rule enforcement for the upper level classes, and try to get racers to pick a class based on skill level, not which class they will do better in. If you don't race people better than you, then you will never get better.
09-06-2012, 01:25 PM
#134
I've been reading the thread and wondering if ROAR would be something useful to me.
So I went to the website. OK, I'm in region 3.
Huh, only 2 tracks listed in region 3. Oops, one has a dead link for a website. The other looks like it might still exist. I'm too lazy to call to find out. Plus they are both offroad. Nothing for me here.
Oh, cool, look a press release about our new regional director (well, over a year ago, but new to me). Huh, he owns a track, but it isn't one of the two listed. Wonder why? Is it too hard? If a regional director doesn't care enough to get his own track listed that doesn't paint a very good picture of the organization.
It looks to me like ROAR is taking itself for granted. Everyone should have figured out by now that "too big to fail" doesn't exist anymore. Assuming that people should want to be in ROAR enough that they don't have to worry about keeping their own stuff up to date. Track list is useless. Online rule book is out of date. If you don't care to keep your own information up to date, how can you expect people to count on you for information (and rules are, at their heart, just lists of information).
At this point I'm pretty sure that if I decided to go to a race and ROAR membership was required I'd just not go to that race.
So I went to the website. OK, I'm in region 3.
Huh, only 2 tracks listed in region 3. Oops, one has a dead link for a website. The other looks like it might still exist. I'm too lazy to call to find out. Plus they are both offroad. Nothing for me here.
Oh, cool, look a press release about our new regional director (well, over a year ago, but new to me). Huh, he owns a track, but it isn't one of the two listed. Wonder why? Is it too hard? If a regional director doesn't care enough to get his own track listed that doesn't paint a very good picture of the organization.
It looks to me like ROAR is taking itself for granted. Everyone should have figured out by now that "too big to fail" doesn't exist anymore. Assuming that people should want to be in ROAR enough that they don't have to worry about keeping their own stuff up to date. Track list is useless. Online rule book is out of date. If you don't care to keep your own information up to date, how can you expect people to count on you for information (and rules are, at their heart, just lists of information).
At this point I'm pretty sure that if I decided to go to a race and ROAR membership was required I'd just not go to that race.
09-07-2012, 04:15 PM
#135
Oops. I broke it.
You may now resume your previous discussions.
You may now resume your previous discussions.