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4318LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2
02-24-2014, 07:48 AM
#6257
talking about the boss vta motors i bought one in october and it always seemed doggy compared to other motors. recently i had a friend put it on dyne and i could not get it over 1.5 amp draw and less then 14,000 rpm. i had to twist past sticker to get it to come to life. so i guess what I'm saying is that lil sticker off just like 1/8 inch and ur motor can't really be tuned. not really much anyone can do I'm just throwing my 2 cents in there….
And with this being part of the USVTA rules:
Well, Novak had better be getting those stickers in the right dang spot! Unfortunately, it's obvious that they aren't. Not to mention....wouldn't it be easy for someone to relocate their sticker if they were looking to cheat and crank in more timing?
To use a sticker for the timing marks....for this class....when you're already charging a premium for the motor..... It's simply not a good idea.
I really think Novak needs to do something about this.
Well, Novak had better be getting those stickers in the right dang spot! Unfortunately, it's obvious that they aren't. Not to mention....wouldn't it be easy for someone to relocate their sticker if they were looking to cheat and crank in more timing?
To use a sticker for the timing marks....for this class....when you're already charging a premium for the motor..... It's simply not a good idea.
I really think Novak needs to do something about this.
If I remember correctly, each sticker is put on each motor individually based on it's final checks from the "scope" to find it's 30 deg spot.
Would tuning it on a dyno tell you what you had for timing? Also not many people have access to a brushess dyno. In any case a sticker is just a sad joke. Put a friggin mark on it. Whether its etched in or machined in, the sticker should go.
The rules of the class are set up to elimiate the "motor war" issue. And keep things simple and inexpensive. But i believe dynoing motors kinda makes it worse. You have a special group of people who can afford to buy multiples of the same motor, and test test test until they get one that is better than the rest, then sell the scrap to make some $$$ back. Now before I get reamed, most of the time you can, and people do, just take it out of the package, slap it in a chassis, and go win with it. It is just despariging when you see one novak motor pull on onther on a straight-away.
The rules of the class are set up to elimiate the "motor war" issue. And keep things simple and inexpensive. But i believe dynoing motors kinda makes it worse. You have a special group of people who can afford to buy multiples of the same motor, and test test test until they get one that is better than the rest, then sell the scrap to make some $$$ back. Now before I get reamed, most of the time you can, and people do, just take it out of the package, slap it in a chassis, and go win with it. It is just despariging when you see one novak motor pull on onther on a straight-away.
I race VTA at a very large track- if you don't have the top end, you are going to be walked away from. Yes, I understand corner speed / setup mean a lot, but that is not the entire picture. Set up or no set up, when you have a really long straight and some cars are simply faster, there isn't much you can do. There seems to be an unspoken agreement amongst those racing to ignore the label 
, because those of us that have raced the class for some time have seen
, because those of us that have raced the class for some time have seenWith all of the motors I have checked over the years for guys in this area, one of the biggest things I have noted. The is a much larger change in the rpm's in the middle of the curve than we realize as we change the timing.
Checking the same motor multiple times at the same timing set point with different batteries has seen as much as 1500 rpm difference. Motors that go over 16A and 26W (on the checker I use) get hot fast and fade quick.
02-24-2014, 08:54 AM
#6258
This is the nature of the beast that I'm not so thrilled about. But I guess I will just adjust timing based on feel and ignore the decal. No one is checking this at a club race anyways. My motor is flat until I get it to "max timing" and then a little beyond, then it starts to finally pick up a bit.
02-24-2014, 09:25 AM
#6259
I always thought they used a sticker because due to tolerances not every motor had zero timing in the same exact spot, thus they move the sticker to show 'true' zero
02-24-2014, 09:54 AM
#6260
You can measure the timing from a screw boss to the end bell with a set of calipers or a steel rule.
When I was racing 1c oval, 44-46 degrees was peak power and efficiency. Any more than that, amps spiked and RPM dropped. This was on a chassis dyno that measured the power at the wheels.
We use the same rotor now in VTA so I'd assume it would be the same, what FDR I'm not sure.
Last edited by CraigMBA; 02-24-2014 at 10:11 AM.
02-24-2014, 11:25 AM
#6261
I also find it odd that it takes "max timing" to get these motors to really wake up. The Tekin 25.5 that im running now has no real power after 20 deg. Im actually running 15 on it now. I have the same if not more top speed than the guys running Novaks, all with lower gearing and less heat than I used to have with the Novak. I still have it in the tool box for when I get a chance to make a USVTA race and not ROAR rules.
02-24-2014, 03:08 PM
#6262
[QUOTE=ercwhtsd;13037687]I am curious, which BL motor checker? When comparing them to my Speedpassion brushless motor checker against a Hobbypartz/ Team Powers type. The numbers are different and can be misleading. The SP version will check the whole system, it uses an ESC to drive it, and I am able to check the motor under a load with a slave motor.
it was a kyohso motor checker.
it was a kyohso motor checker.
02-24-2014, 03:24 PM
#6263
I would think if you set your motor up on a speed control - using "Free Revs"
You can get an inline amp meter from harbor freight - and solder tabs on it and make your own - you can use an Inductive Amp Meter (This is what I use) - or there's a "Free Rev" meter available from Lefthander R/C (Sam's Free Rev) -- all are fairly cheap options.
adjust your endbell to give the amp draw you desire, adjust ALL your motors as close to that same amp draw - and generally your RPM will be pretty dang close -
(Timing Stickers SUCK - but try to read the timing on a TRINITY D3.5 motor sometime - BLAH -- I can't read THAT w/ a magnifying glass!
You can get an inline amp meter from harbor freight - and solder tabs on it and make your own - you can use an Inductive Amp Meter (This is what I use) - or there's a "Free Rev" meter available from Lefthander R/C (Sam's Free Rev) -- all are fairly cheap options.
adjust your endbell to give the amp draw you desire, adjust ALL your motors as close to that same amp draw - and generally your RPM will be pretty dang close -
(Timing Stickers SUCK - but try to read the timing on a TRINITY D3.5 motor sometime - BLAH -- I can't read THAT w/ a magnifying glass!
02-24-2014, 04:58 PM
#6264
If you run a Novak ESC, enable reverse and calibrate the ESC to the radio. Then adjust the endbell so you get the same free-running RPM in full reverse as full forward. (Doing this by pitch works well unless you are very tone-deaf.) This gives exactly 30 degrees timing. Then place the sticker so it indicates 30 degrees.
02-24-2014, 05:16 PM
#6265
If you run a Novak ESC, enable reverse and calibrate the ESC to the radio. Then adjust the endbell so you get the same free-running RPM in full reverse as full forward. (Doing this by pitch works well unless you are very tone-deaf.) This gives exactly 30 degrees timing. Then place the sticker so it indicates 30 degrees.
I guess I can use a musical instrument tuning app on my iPhone.
02-24-2014, 05:34 PM
#6266
My friend Mr.Wallace has had nothing but problems with his BOSS 25.5 since day 1..he sent it to Novak n they said there was nothing wrong with it. Last time we raced it kept coging all day, he let me have it at the end of the day to put in my car to see if I would have the same issues. Bench tested motor n all was good but it heated up alot in just a few minutes. Please take time n compair his motor timing sticker to mine, with the timing screws inline his is off some 15° compaired to mine so when he's at 45° is it peaking at 60° vs my 45°. He's a good man + racer n these motor problems need to get fixed.
☆frankie p☆
☆frankie p☆
If that don't do the trick I would solder the motor to a different ESC. That would usually tell who's the culprit!
02-24-2014, 09:04 PM
#6267
If you run a Novak ESC, enable reverse and calibrate the ESC to the radio. Then adjust the endbell so you get the same free-running RPM in full reverse as full forward. (Doing this by pitch works well unless you are very tone-deaf.) This gives exactly 30 degrees timing. Then place the sticker so it indicates 30 degrees.
Anyway, I have been running at 45º and I thought that provided Good power. And with 3.50 FDR, the motor was not hot to touch after a 6 minute race.
Tonight, however, I kept turning up the timing and kept listening at the pitch and each degree of timing increase gave me noticeably higher pitch (more RPM) sound… a lot higher. At 48º the motor sounds angrily fast.
With the imprecise sticker placement I can see how a person can benefit from one degree higher timing.
| + YouTube Video | |
Last edited by edhchoe; 02-24-2014 at 10:29 PM.
02-24-2014, 09:18 PM
#6268
Amp draw is the best way to set the timing. Throw the stickers out the window.
02-25-2014, 03:57 AM
#6270
I used my ears to check the correct 30º location on both mine and my son's motors. His was right on while mine was 1º off.
Anyway, I have been running at 45º and I thought that provided Good power. And with 3.50 FDR, the motor was not hot to touch after a 6 minute race.
Tonight, however, I kept turning up the timing and kept listening at the pitch and each degree of timing increase gave me noticeably higher pitch (more RPM) sound… a lot higher. At 48º the motor sounds angrily fast.
With the imprecise sticker placement I can see how a person can benefit from one degree higher timing.
Anyway, I have been running at 45º and I thought that provided Good power. And with 3.50 FDR, the motor was not hot to touch after a 6 minute race.
Tonight, however, I kept turning up the timing and kept listening at the pitch and each degree of timing increase gave me noticeably higher pitch (more RPM) sound… a lot higher. At 48º the motor sounds angrily fast.
With the imprecise sticker placement I can see how a person can benefit from one degree higher timing.
I think Meradin's solution of checking RPM at the wheel is the best:
This is why we went with a RPM limit at our track. Previously we had a FDR limit but some cars were a full second faster than others. We have a very small track and imposed some pretty strict speed limits to keep things safe, slower, and still competitive.
We now use handheld non-contact laser RPM meters (from Amazon, $17) to make sure that no car's unloaded RPM is faster than others. We have a 2550 upper limit which we tech before you can put your car on the track.
We are very pleased with the results. The racing is very close and competitive. You really have to setup and drive your car well. There has been a different A-main winner almost every week.
We now use handheld non-contact laser RPM meters (from Amazon, $17) to make sure that no car's unloaded RPM is faster than others. We have a 2550 upper limit which we tech before you can put your car on the track.
We are very pleased with the results. The racing is very close and competitive. You really have to setup and drive your car well. There has been a different A-main winner almost every week.
Last edited by howardcano; 02-25-2014 at 04:11 AM.