4 Cell Sedan Racing
01-12-2005, 06:25 PM
#451
Originally posted by AdrianM
JKA - The problem with adding competition to the market is dilution of the market. I have it from some very reliable sources that world wide the R/C Car consumer base is static. That is genereally for every one person that gets into R/C cars one person get out of the hobby. It has actually been like this for a couple of years. This is not good. There should be growth. As a result some manufacturers are developing hot new products. Others are refining existing markets to make things better.
More competition just gives everyone a smaller cut of the same size pie.
JKA - The problem with adding competition to the market is dilution of the market. I have it from some very reliable sources that world wide the R/C Car consumer base is static. That is genereally for every one person that gets into R/C cars one person get out of the hobby. It has actually been like this for a couple of years. This is not good. There should be growth. As a result some manufacturers are developing hot new products. Others are refining existing markets to make things better.
More competition just gives everyone a smaller cut of the same size pie.
RC-er's who do their research don't buy garbage and garbage-makers have two choices: 1. step up their game or 2. call it quits... as far as this goes, that's how I see it. I could be wrong
-JB
01-12-2005, 08:36 PM
#452
I tried out a 4300 last night with 5 cells. (10th scale touring car)I asked them if it was OK and they told me they'd let me give it a shot. They've always said "NO" to the 4300, except in "Pro Stock".
Verdict (for me at least):
First two minutes (4 minute race), they're faster (I was at 6.20 fdr), but not by much...second two minutes, I'm faster, but not by much. Nobody complained that I was "motoring" them -- but I did get some shocked looks when they saw that I had removed a cell.
Being down one cell did help the "OMG" punch deal that the Novak has and it was more driveable for me. FWIW -- I'm a pretty decent Novice, trying to get up to Intermediate at SoCal (tough crowd there
).
I hate brushed motors...I just want to have fun and drive. I went home with a trophy and a smile...no glitching and my fingers weren't all f'd up from motor spray.
It was a good night.
I'd love to see a 5-cell 4300 class. Same speed as stock, without the hassle. I might try 4-cells next week, but I need some taller gears.
Verdict (for me at least):
First two minutes (4 minute race), they're faster (I was at 6.20 fdr), but not by much...second two minutes, I'm faster, but not by much. Nobody complained that I was "motoring" them -- but I did get some shocked looks when they saw that I had removed a cell.
Being down one cell did help the "OMG" punch deal that the Novak has and it was more driveable for me. FWIW -- I'm a pretty decent Novice, trying to get up to Intermediate at SoCal (tough crowd there
). I hate brushed motors...I just want to have fun and drive. I went home with a trophy and a smile...no glitching and my fingers weren't all f'd up from motor spray.
It was a good night. I'd love to see a 5-cell 4300 class. Same speed as stock, without the hassle. I might try 4-cells next week, but I need some taller gears.
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Just FYI, I've run 3 cell brushless 1/12 scale. Yes 3 cell. It was an attempt to satify the 27T whiners that didn't like the idea of the Novak 4300 running with them. It was a bit slower than the 27T 4 cell, but I was suprized to find that everything worked, receiver, transponder, ect. I can't imagine you would need a separate Rx pack if you are running 4 cells.
Just FYI, I've run 3 cell brushless 1/12 scale. Yes 3 cell. It was an attempt to satify the 27T whiners that didn't like the idea of the Novak 4300 running with them. It was a bit slower than the 27T 4 cell, but I was suprized to find that everything worked, receiver, transponder, ect. I can't imagine you would need a separate Rx pack if you are running 4 cells.
01-12-2005, 10:51 PM
#453
being someone who supported and helped initiate 4 cell into OVAL racing a few years ago, I personally do NOT think 4 cell is the way to go w/ Sedans across the board.
I think REEDY is proposing 4cell MODIFIED for SEDANS. In part, because 6 cell mod is hard for the AVERAGE driver to drive..and the TOP drivers don't BUY motors. Therefore in an effort to create a NEW Modified purchasing market, 4 cell modified would be perfect.
I can tell you 4 cell MODIFIED touring is a blast. Just a tad faster than 6 cell stock, cars work AWESOME and the speed over stock is about perfect.
I can also tell you, I was pushing for 4 cell in the 1/10th scale PAN CARS for OnRoad racing for several years now. I feel that if Pan Cars would have switched to 4 cells that could have saved that dinasour from extinction. On nearly every track I've seen it tried...4 cell STOCK Pan Car whooops a 6 cell STOCK Sedan.
You can't get much more durable and cheaper than a PAN CAR.
I think REEDY is proposing 4cell MODIFIED for SEDANS. In part, because 6 cell mod is hard for the AVERAGE driver to drive..and the TOP drivers don't BUY motors. Therefore in an effort to create a NEW Modified purchasing market, 4 cell modified would be perfect.
I can tell you 4 cell MODIFIED touring is a blast. Just a tad faster than 6 cell stock, cars work AWESOME and the speed over stock is about perfect.
I can also tell you, I was pushing for 4 cell in the 1/10th scale PAN CARS for OnRoad racing for several years now. I feel that if Pan Cars would have switched to 4 cells that could have saved that dinasour from extinction. On nearly every track I've seen it tried...4 cell STOCK Pan Car whooops a 6 cell STOCK Sedan.
You can't get much more durable and cheaper than a PAN CAR.
01-12-2005, 11:02 PM
#454
As long as it is an additional class and doesn't take place of 6 cell. Anytime you reduce power, you increase your percentage at full throttle which brings you closer to motor/battery wars. I think we should be running 7 cell mod on Sorex 50s.
But agreed the newbie classes should be slower so they don't break parts (as many ) and can concentrate of driving.
SWtour, can you point me to some race results that show the 4cell stock guys beating the 6cell stock guys? Or did you mean 4 cell mod?
Aw man that Nyquil and Ambien are kickin' in prteyt gud, So Nhgity Nhigt.a'laslhg'ag'll'aaa/ g;[flaaiwgylif
But agreed the newbie classes should be slower so they don't break parts (as many
) and can concentrate of driving.SWtour, can you point me to some race results that show the 4cell stock guys beating the 6cell stock guys? Or did you mean 4 cell mod?
Aw man that Nyquil and Ambien are kickin' in prteyt gud, So Nhgity Nhigt.a'laslhg'ag'll'aaa/ g;[flaaiwgylif
01-13-2005, 06:13 AM
#455
Originally posted by SWTour
I can tell you 4 cell MODIFIED touring is a blast. Just a tad faster than 6 cell stock, cars work AWESOME and the speed over stock is about perfect.
I can tell you 4 cell MODIFIED touring is a blast. Just a tad faster than 6 cell stock, cars work AWESOME and the speed over stock is about perfect.
And I'd believe it in an instant that a 4-Cell Stock Pan Car can be as fast as a 6-Cell Stock Sedan on most tracks.
01-13-2005, 06:33 AM
#456
You guys are making a very good point that I did not make earlier. There is no intention on anyones part to ram 4 cell racing down anyones throat. I posted this thread to put forth a new concept and see what you though. It was never my intention to outlaw 6 cell racing and force everyone into 4 cell. Change happens naturally. If 4 cell works out then eventually everyone will switch on their own. If not then it goes away.
01-13-2005, 06:44 AM
#457
Gordon... 6 cell Stock Pan car will pretty much outdrive 6 cell MOD TC.... Kinda sad we went the TC route....
01-13-2005, 06:48 AM
#458
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Gordon... 6 cell Stock Pan car will pretty much outdrive 6 cell MOD TC.... Kinda sad we went the TC route....
Gordon... 6 cell Stock Pan car will pretty much outdrive 6 cell MOD TC.... Kinda sad we went the TC route....
01-13-2005, 07:03 AM
#459
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Gordon... 6 cell Stock Pan car will pretty much outdrive 6 cell MOD TC.... Kinda sad we went the TC route....
Gordon... 6 cell Stock Pan car will pretty much outdrive 6 cell MOD TC.... Kinda sad we went the TC route....
If you really want to cut your costs just get a 12th scale, plus you get 8 minute races instead of 5.
01-13-2005, 05:00 PM
#460
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
Originally posted by centax error!
josh- this devaluation may not always be the case since US dollar is far more stable than the Yen and have held up better than any other currency today and it will probably go back if not close to where it originally started and besides how many times do we see prices of imported stuff go down everytime the Yen devaluates? and I am talking prices on the shelves not the wholesale price as prices could have rolled back from the wholesaler itself. Please let's not use this devaluation as an excuse for the manufacters/wholesaler for charging us what they think they should be charging us becuase there are still other ways to bring down the cost! The reason why I was pushing this PRICING ISSUE is that Serpent NL have done something which we all thought was IMPOSSIBLE to happen and we have learned that it needs somebody with a very strong determination and I was hoping that someone from the electric counterpart will also step up on the plate and come up with a better idea than using 4 cells. If an increase is really inevitable then that additional cost should not be all pased to the end users (racers) and must be shared between the supplier, manufacter ,dealers, retailers and the racers. We also not forget that there is this global economy thing going on (???) In the past , you need to invest heavily in properties and machineries before you can head bang with the big guys but now all you need to compete is a plane ticket and a briefcase! but for arguments sake and back to the REAL TOPIC -let's just assume that the manufacturers have run out of resources to lower the material part of the cost and is already 99.99 % effecient in the production line. Then why not re- design the motor to be more effecient? I guess that's what the R&D for right? and because the latest chassis now is designed to use 6 cell and only resort to the 4 cell idea as a third option. Okay, let's take the V2 endbell design as an example and not go the OPPOSITE DIRECTION as alot in this forum is not in favor on the 4 cell idea also. The V2 endbell and the BL system could be one of the viable options to reduce the MAINTAINANCE factor and hoping that the sanctioning bodies is gonna buy it. However, the initial cost that entails for the V2 conversion might be a turned off to some racers but if you come to think about it having lesser wear on the comm and few brushes to buy that will make a difference. On my stock motor with V2 endbell I am averaging ten runs before I start cutting the com and this is on a club race level. That same company that designed the V2 is not resting and offering a sport version of the V2 endbell and I believe street price should be inline with the standard endbell stock motor so that the technology will be made affordable. Power band for this motor has yet to be proven in club races but this is the kind of DIRECTION that we would like to see happen from the manufacturers standpoint if they really want to take this hobby into the next level
I'm not suggesting that other company should copy the V2 endbell but to come up with something close to the idea if not better : nod:
...now if I can only buy a set of motor and an armature that would be an endbell less price of a motor to pay on my next trip to my LHS. Just a thought....btw, why do we only see spare armatures and not spare motor cans on the shelves?
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate. There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
CE
josh- this devaluation may not always be the case since US dollar is far more stable than the Yen and have held up better than any other currency today and it will probably go back if not close to where it originally started and besides how many times do we see prices of imported stuff go down everytime the Yen devaluates? and I am talking prices on the shelves not the wholesale price as prices could have rolled back from the wholesaler itself. Please let's not use this devaluation as an excuse for the manufacters/wholesaler for charging us what they think they should be charging us becuase there are still other ways to bring down the cost! The reason why I was pushing this PRICING ISSUE is that Serpent NL have done something which we all thought was IMPOSSIBLE to happen and we have learned that it needs somebody with a very strong determination and I was hoping that someone from the electric counterpart will also step up on the plate and come up with a better idea than using 4 cells. If an increase is really inevitable then that additional cost should not be all pased to the end users (racers) and must be shared between the supplier, manufacter ,dealers, retailers and the racers. We also not forget that there is this global economy thing going on (???) In the past , you need to invest heavily in properties and machineries before you can head bang with the big guys but now all you need to compete is a plane ticket and a briefcase! but for arguments sake and back to the REAL TOPIC -let's just assume that the manufacturers have run out of resources to lower the material part of the cost and is already 99.99 % effecient in the production line. Then why not re- design the motor to be more effecient? I guess that's what the R&D for right? and because the latest chassis now is designed to use 6 cell and only resort to the 4 cell idea as a third option. Okay, let's take the V2 endbell design as an example and not go the OPPOSITE DIRECTION as alot in this forum is not in favor on the 4 cell idea also. The V2 endbell and the BL system could be one of the viable options to reduce the MAINTAINANCE factor and hoping that the sanctioning bodies is gonna buy it. However, the initial cost that entails for the V2 conversion might be a turned off to some racers but if you come to think about it having lesser wear on the comm and few brushes to buy that will make a difference. On my stock motor with V2 endbell I am averaging ten runs before I start cutting the com and this is on a club race level. That same company that designed the V2 is not resting and offering a sport version of the V2 endbell and I believe street price should be inline with the standard endbell stock motor so that the technology will be made affordable. Power band for this motor has yet to be proven in club races but this is the kind of DIRECTION that we would like to see happen from the manufacturers standpoint if they really want to take this hobby into the next level
I'm not suggesting that other company should copy the V2 endbell but to come up with something close to the idea if not better : nod: ...now if I can only buy a set of motor and an armature that would be an endbell less price of a motor to pay on my next trip to my LHS. Just a thought....btw, why do we only see spare armatures and not spare motor cans on the shelves?
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate. There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
CE
01-13-2005, 05:02 PM
#461
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
Centax,
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate. There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate. There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
01-13-2005, 08:07 PM
#462
Gordon...
...SWtour, can you point me to some race results that show the 4cell stock guys beating the 6cell stock guys? Or did you mean 4 cell mod?...
I had mentioned 4 cell STOCK pan car going faster than 6 cell STOCK Sedan and also 4 cell MOD Sedan being just a tad faster than 6 cell stock sedan.
This has been during testings to see how the cars react, which is what I was involved with several years ago when switching OVAL to 4 cell.
With OVAL we did some exibition events at a OVAL Nat's race and on a VELODROME race. Some of the guys hit a good gear right off the bat and ran some awesome times and showed that 4 cell could be quick and competitive. After a few more tests that year, we worked and lobbied for as many as possible of the tracks across the country as possible to make the switch.
Anybody wanting to see the speeds of a 4 cell pan car on a VELODROME... be at the Encino Velodome in SoCal February 26th.~
MODIFIED will be running approx 60 mph on a 960 ft. track.
...SWtour, can you point me to some race results that show the 4cell stock guys beating the 6cell stock guys? Or did you mean 4 cell mod?...
I had mentioned 4 cell STOCK pan car going faster than 6 cell STOCK Sedan and also 4 cell MOD Sedan being just a tad faster than 6 cell stock sedan.
This has been during testings to see how the cars react, which is what I was involved with several years ago when switching OVAL to 4 cell.
With OVAL we did some exibition events at a OVAL Nat's race and on a VELODROME race. Some of the guys hit a good gear right off the bat and ran some awesome times and showed that 4 cell could be quick and competitive. After a few more tests that year, we worked and lobbied for as many as possible of the tracks across the country as possible to make the switch.
Anybody wanting to see the speeds of a 4 cell pan car on a VELODROME... be at the Encino Velodome in SoCal February 26th.~
MODIFIED will be running approx 60 mph on a 960 ft. track.
01-13-2005, 08:45 PM
#463
Tech Master
Originally posted by Ginsu
Centax,
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate.
Centax,
That was very nice of you to take the time to voice your opinion. Unfortunately you are way off base. Josh was correct in his statement about the exchange rate. Right now the dollar is taking a beating to the Euro and the Yen. Furthermore, just about every product we use in RC not to mention everyday life comes from overseas or with a % of thier components made overseas which is all effected by the exchange rate.
Originally posted by Ginsu
There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
There is no shame in not being able to afford this hobby, I hear beer can collecting is still popular in certain areas of the country. This industry has small margins as it is, add to that competition from e commerce companies and you have the makings of a very modest living.........Adrian, 4 cell sedan is the best idea I have heard in a long time for all of the reasons posted on this forum. Nice work. Hope to say hi to you and Paul at the Birds. Jeff
01-14-2005, 05:55 AM
#464
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
I am not attacking you personally, but I guess I did miss your point. What was it? The topic was 4 cell racing which makes perfectly good sense. You commented on what Josh said and I interjected fact to your comments. Many racers complain about cost. They should decide if they can afford to race competively or accept the fact that it is too costly, and participate like 80% of the other individuals who run for fun and do not race. Beer can collecting is one of many other hobbies that can be less expensive to participate in than rc racing. I am not in the rc business as a retailer, wholesaler or manufacturer. There just is not enough money in it for me. Many people would like to race full size stock cars but can not do so due to the high cost associated with racing. If you continue to race which I hope you do, make educated buying decisions, looking for the best price from a reputable source. Buy wisely, and look into classes that can be more cost effective. 4 cell sedan racing would be a great class to have with control tires and motors............thanks for your imput.
01-14-2005, 11:05 AM
#465
Originally posted by Ginsu
I am not attacking you personally, but I guess I did miss your point. What was it? The topic was 4 cell racing which makes perfectly good sense. You commented on what Josh said and I interjected fact to your comments. Many racers complain about cost. They should decide if they can afford to race competively or accept the fact that it is too costly, and participate like 80% of the other individuals who run for fun and do not race. Beer can collecting is one of many other hobbies that can be less expensive to participate in than rc racing. I am not in the rc business as a retailer, wholesaler or manufacturer. There just is not enough money in it for me. Many people would like to race full size stock cars but can not do so due to the high cost associated with racing. If you continue to race which I hope you do, make educated buying decisions, looking for the best price from a reputable source. Buy wisely, and look into classes that can be more cost effective. 4 cell sedan racing would be a great class to have with control tires and motors............thanks for your imput.
I am not attacking you personally, but I guess I did miss your point. What was it? The topic was 4 cell racing which makes perfectly good sense. You commented on what Josh said and I interjected fact to your comments. Many racers complain about cost. They should decide if they can afford to race competively or accept the fact that it is too costly, and participate like 80% of the other individuals who run for fun and do not race. Beer can collecting is one of many other hobbies that can be less expensive to participate in than rc racing. I am not in the rc business as a retailer, wholesaler or manufacturer. There just is not enough money in it for me. Many people would like to race full size stock cars but can not do so due to the high cost associated with racing. If you continue to race which I hope you do, make educated buying decisions, looking for the best price from a reputable source. Buy wisely, and look into classes that can be more cost effective. 4 cell sedan racing would be a great class to have with control tires and motors............thanks for your imput.
People who own Mercedez benz cars will keep on driving one even if they cant afford one. Why because image factor no one wants to show they are poor.
Same thing people cry about Lincoln Navigators, and Cadilac Escalades and how expensive they are but they still buy them.
I seen a bunch of guys who own 2 gfx's and a high end comm lathes, with 15 battery packs and 6 motors contantly bitch about how expensive it is! What the F*&K !!! Yeah its expensive because people dont know how to play within their means. They all want to play the role of pimp daddy. Its only their fault. They should have bought the t-spec!