Fastest Spec/Blinky Mode ESC
10-15-2011, 09:05 AM
#121
Blinky on the ESC should be a rev limiter. All ESC's can only max out at whatever RPM is determined for a 17.5 that is picked, 24000 for example, then if you put a max FDR limit, those that want more pull out of corners can choose to do so, but no one will have more outright speed. I suppose you could even allow any tuning rotors, since all that would do is allow people to tune to their driving style, but terminal speed will be the same max for all. It could simplify tech, since opening motors would likely be not needed, just do the inductance test, which is fairly easy and quick. Actually, maybe that doesn't even matter, so what if you are running a 13.5, it would still max out at the same RPM. Also it still allows all brands of motors to be used. No manufacturer is singled out. I am not sure of there is an easy way to test an ESC for compliance at the track, but I am sure a one of the electronic people at Tekin or Novak could come up with a simple box that the top three finisher at a major event had to hook their ESC up to for a quick spot check of compliance to the max RPM set, and we are done.
Also, the whole over charging batteries becomes less of an important factor, since you still would hit the same max RPM even if you are running a battery that is at 8.5 volts.
Seems simple, am I missing something?
-a
Also, the whole over charging batteries becomes less of an important factor, since you still would hit the same max RPM even if you are running a battery that is at 8.5 volts.
Seems simple, am I missing something?
-a
Last edited by oldrcr; 10-15-2011 at 09:16 AM.
10-15-2011, 09:26 AM
#122
Yes.
1. If a speedo can be hacked, so can a rev limiter (at least, that's what people will think).
2. RPMs are only one factor in horsepower. Give me a motor with more torque, I can still go faster.
3. I have been saying this for decades as it applies to ALL forms of racing so I think it's time I made it official. So here it is, "Sean's Law."
The more restrictive the rules, the more APPARENT cheating will be
Notice I said "apparent." Often times, there is no cheating but since restrictive rules means many more ways to cheat, people will always assume it is going on and of course, sometimes they are right. I've always found that the best classes are those with the fewest rules and restrictions.
1. If a speedo can be hacked, so can a rev limiter (at least, that's what people will think).
2. RPMs are only one factor in horsepower. Give me a motor with more torque, I can still go faster.
3. I have been saying this for decades as it applies to ALL forms of racing so I think it's time I made it official. So here it is, "Sean's Law."
The more restrictive the rules, the more APPARENT cheating will be
Notice I said "apparent." Often times, there is no cheating but since restrictive rules means many more ways to cheat, people will always assume it is going on and of course, sometimes they are right. I've always found that the best classes are those with the fewest rules and restrictions.
10-15-2011, 09:43 AM
#123
I do agree with you about more rules having that effect, but until we just make everyone run open, and just let your results speak for themselves, we are going to have those that want to put limits out there. They need to be kept simple as possible.
I agree that you will get better grunt out of the corner with more torque, but with a set FDR and set RPM, you will not have any faster terminal speed than any one else. Not physically possible.
Can the ESC be hacked, well sure. Maybe an inline box between the sensor and ESC can be devised, totally sealed, preset by ROAR or whatever sanctioning body, and then you can run whatever motor/ESC you want because the only advantage you will gain by running a torquier set-up will give you better acceleration, but you will still hit the same terminal RPM that all will have. This is also why battery voltage will not be a factor and get rid of the need for overcharging, the latest thing that is getting more attention in stock classes.
I agree that you will get better grunt out of the corner with more torque, but with a set FDR and set RPM, you will not have any faster terminal speed than any one else. Not physically possible.
Can the ESC be hacked, well sure. Maybe an inline box between the sensor and ESC can be devised, totally sealed, preset by ROAR or whatever sanctioning body, and then you can run whatever motor/ESC you want because the only advantage you will gain by running a torquier set-up will give you better acceleration, but you will still hit the same terminal RPM that all will have. This is also why battery voltage will not be a factor and get rid of the need for overcharging, the latest thing that is getting more attention in stock classes.
10-15-2011, 09:47 AM
#124
Do you really think blinky alone is what brought guys back to the track? Or was it simply that the cars are slower and easier to drive? Less breakage perhaps?
There are other options to help level the playing field that the majority of the manufacturers already posses.
Think bigger guys. Locked motors will only work if they're handouts. There are far too many variables and tolerances to have 4 or 5 manufacturers all produce a motor that was close enough for this idea to work.
Boost is no more complicated than tuning a stock brushed motor was back in the good 'ol days. This is a lame excuse at best. Today's onroad car has more adjustments than you can shake a stick at. Yet we don't complain about this as being too complicated!? lol
Slow can be done. There are a lot of factors and variables to do so accurately but it can be done.
Sensorless is probably the easiest to do or at least a Dual drive in which sensors are only used for rotor position knowledge not timing calculations. This physically limits the amount of timing that can be had due to the current motor design. You cannot boost a sensorless setup, period. This also eliminates any motor timing.
If you own a Tekin go try it out. Take your blinky car and pull the sensor harness. Sure it will cog at first because of no sensors but drive the car on the track once it's going. Is this slow enough?
I will not get into an argument in this thread. I will however engage in intelligent conversation.
There are other options to help level the playing field that the majority of the manufacturers already posses.
Think bigger guys. Locked motors will only work if they're handouts. There are far too many variables and tolerances to have 4 or 5 manufacturers all produce a motor that was close enough for this idea to work.
Boost is no more complicated than tuning a stock brushed motor was back in the good 'ol days. This is a lame excuse at best. Today's onroad car has more adjustments than you can shake a stick at. Yet we don't complain about this as being too complicated!? lol
Slow can be done. There are a lot of factors and variables to do so accurately but it can be done.
Sensorless is probably the easiest to do or at least a Dual drive in which sensors are only used for rotor position knowledge not timing calculations. This physically limits the amount of timing that can be had due to the current motor design. You cannot boost a sensorless setup, period. This also eliminates any motor timing.
If you own a Tekin go try it out. Take your blinky car and pull the sensor harness. Sure it will cog at first because of no sensors but drive the car on the track once it's going. Is this slow enough?
I will not get into an argument in this thread. I will however engage in intelligent conversation.
10-15-2011, 10:00 AM
#125
actually, with a terminal RPM & FDR, even allowing timing to played with would be fine, since you would still only have that max speed you can hit. Then by getting to use all the timing features an ESC has, you will become a more knowledgable racer having learned how to use it for when you move into the open class.
I am putting this out there because it seems the talk is to limit speed for the classes below mod. The simplest logical way to do that is RPM limit with max FDR. Once you have that, and those should be able to be done with easy to tech methods, you just let all go out and race. Better car set-up and driving will prevail since terminal speed will not be what wins races.
this is a win/win scenario for racers and manufacturers.
I am putting this out there because it seems the talk is to limit speed for the classes below mod. The simplest logical way to do that is RPM limit with max FDR. Once you have that, and those should be able to be done with easy to tech methods, you just let all go out and race. Better car set-up and driving will prevail since terminal speed will not be what wins races.
this is a win/win scenario for racers and manufacturers.
10-15-2011, 10:07 AM
#126
I agree, Locked motors if not handouts would be a mess. Think of the guy that has access to hundreds of motors vs the guy that has the money to buy one or two. Who do you think would have the best motor. No ability to tune you way back into the game besides buying a new one again and again.
At our tracks we see time and time again the modified classes always going away. 4wd off road lasted 2 seasons, mod 1.12 lasted the same amount of time...... people throwing to much motor in and ripping apart their car gets frustrating fast but if there is one guy going fast people feel like they have to make the power.
I normally did well when we had 17.5 boosted 1/12 but, did feel bad for the guys that didn't have a laptop, hotwire and the time to play with the software. However, when running blinky you better be willing to spend the money to do everything right or you will be slow. Just my opinion
Randy, I have a tech question for you. Any chance I can get your email address to pick you brain. Please pm if you see this.. Thanks
At our tracks we see time and time again the modified classes always going away. 4wd off road lasted 2 seasons, mod 1.12 lasted the same amount of time...... people throwing to much motor in and ripping apart their car gets frustrating fast but if there is one guy going fast people feel like they have to make the power.
I normally did well when we had 17.5 boosted 1/12 but, did feel bad for the guys that didn't have a laptop, hotwire and the time to play with the software. However, when running blinky you better be willing to spend the money to do everything right or you will be slow. Just my opinion
Randy, I have a tech question for you. Any chance I can get your email address to pick you brain. Please pm if you see this.. Thanks
Do you really think blinky alone is what brought guys back to the track? Or was it simply that the cars are slower and easier to drive? Less breakage perhaps?
There are other options to help level the playing field that the majority of the manufacturers already posses.
Think bigger guys. Locked motors will only work if they're handouts. There are far too many variables and tolerances to have 4 or 5 manufacturers all produce a motor that was close enough for this idea to work.
Boost is no more complicated than tuning a stock brushed motor was back in the good 'ol days. This is a lame excuse at best. Today's onroad car has more adjustments than you can shake a stick at. Yet we don't complain about this as being too complicated!? lol
Slow can be done. There are a lot of factors and variables to do so accurately but it can be done.
Sensorless is probably the easiest to do or at least a Dual drive in which sensors are only used for rotor position knowledge not timing calculations. This physically limits the amount of timing that can be had due to the current motor design. You cannot boost a sensorless setup, period. This also eliminates any motor timing.
If you own a Tekin go try it out. Take your blinky car and pull the sensor harness. Sure it will cog at first because of no sensors but drive the car on the track once it's going. Is this slow enough?
I will not get into an argument in this thread. I will however engage in intelligent conversation.
There are other options to help level the playing field that the majority of the manufacturers already posses.
Think bigger guys. Locked motors will only work if they're handouts. There are far too many variables and tolerances to have 4 or 5 manufacturers all produce a motor that was close enough for this idea to work.
Boost is no more complicated than tuning a stock brushed motor was back in the good 'ol days. This is a lame excuse at best. Today's onroad car has more adjustments than you can shake a stick at. Yet we don't complain about this as being too complicated!? lol
Slow can be done. There are a lot of factors and variables to do so accurately but it can be done.
Sensorless is probably the easiest to do or at least a Dual drive in which sensors are only used for rotor position knowledge not timing calculations. This physically limits the amount of timing that can be had due to the current motor design. You cannot boost a sensorless setup, period. This also eliminates any motor timing.
If you own a Tekin go try it out. Take your blinky car and pull the sensor harness. Sure it will cog at first because of no sensors but drive the car on the track once it's going. Is this slow enough?
I will not get into an argument in this thread. I will however engage in intelligent conversation.
10-15-2011, 10:19 AM
#128
At our local track we run 1/12 17.5 open speedo. I just happen to have won the series but never broke the fast lap barrier set by a Novak GTB powered car. Yes, I have a Tekin and yes we spent a lot of time working up the timing curves that suits our track. We then downloaded this set up into anyone's Tekin thereby creating a level playing field for those using the Tekins. The racing was the closest we ever had and a some of the non 1/12 racers are going to try it this year.
So far "blinky" isn't an issue at our track, no one runs it.
So far "blinky" isn't an issue at our track, no one runs it.
10-15-2011, 10:25 AM
#129
Tech Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
A lock will only keep an honest man out.
If somebody wants to cheat, there is nothing you can do that is going to stop them. I agree, more limitations mean more room for cheating. Randy is right, there are MUCH more intelligent methods for achieving this. Tuning an ESC is no different that tuning your car. It is simply another tuning option. IMHO racing was most fun when stock class was simply determined by the motor wind. As long as your motor and batteries were up to spec, you were good to go.
I wont buy that blinky mode is what brought more folks into racing. In fact, I think it is just the opposite. I think blinky will end up pushing folks out of the hobby. Blinky mode seems to support, he with the most money wins. Have watched the spec class at my local track. If you aren't running the right motor of the week, then you are just acting as filler for the main. 80 dollar paper weights is right. Bring back open ESC's. You can make ALL current motors available VERY competitive if you are allowed to use the tuning options in your ESC. I got back into 1/12th scale 17.5 in May of this year. From that time till now I have purchased 6 motors in an attempt to 'Keep up with the Jones's'. At 80 bucks a whack, do the math. You still think Blinky makes it more accessible to the average racer?
Allow open ESC, motor timing and tuning rotors, restrict classes by motor wind. How do you plan to cheat now? Suddenly you have almost no options.
Neil H
If somebody wants to cheat, there is nothing you can do that is going to stop them. I agree, more limitations mean more room for cheating. Randy is right, there are MUCH more intelligent methods for achieving this. Tuning an ESC is no different that tuning your car. It is simply another tuning option. IMHO racing was most fun when stock class was simply determined by the motor wind. As long as your motor and batteries were up to spec, you were good to go.
I wont buy that blinky mode is what brought more folks into racing. In fact, I think it is just the opposite. I think blinky will end up pushing folks out of the hobby. Blinky mode seems to support, he with the most money wins. Have watched the spec class at my local track. If you aren't running the right motor of the week, then you are just acting as filler for the main. 80 dollar paper weights is right. Bring back open ESC's. You can make ALL current motors available VERY competitive if you are allowed to use the tuning options in your ESC. I got back into 1/12th scale 17.5 in May of this year. From that time till now I have purchased 6 motors in an attempt to 'Keep up with the Jones's'. At 80 bucks a whack, do the math. You still think Blinky makes it more accessible to the average racer?
Allow open ESC, motor timing and tuning rotors, restrict classes by motor wind. How do you plan to cheat now? Suddenly you have almost no options.
Neil H
10-15-2011, 10:30 AM
#130
I think when everybody realizes that by having a terminal RPM in conjunction with a set FDR, whatever motor and ESC, and even battery will be less of an issue, so you won't have to go and buy so many to try and find more top speed, that part (top speed) will be a given, for EVERYONE.
Will you have some with more rip out of the corners, yes, but even that is self limiting, as you will have to be able to put that power down onto the track. Those with better set-up and driving skill will be able to do that, which is what why we race isn't it, to prove who has mastered those skills.
This will force you to develop those skills, set-up and driving, instead of who can come up with the fastest top speed via higher battery voltage or finding that motor that eeks out a few extra RPM, more fets on the ESC, etc., we all become better racers and enjoy the competition that much more. I know this is why I race, to set my car up better than you and drive better than you. Not because I spent more money. Thats a different race.
Will you have some with more rip out of the corners, yes, but even that is self limiting, as you will have to be able to put that power down onto the track. Those with better set-up and driving skill will be able to do that, which is what why we race isn't it, to prove who has mastered those skills.
This will force you to develop those skills, set-up and driving, instead of who can come up with the fastest top speed via higher battery voltage or finding that motor that eeks out a few extra RPM, more fets on the ESC, etc., we all become better racers and enjoy the competition that much more. I know this is why I race, to set my car up better than you and drive better than you. Not because I spent more money. Thats a different race.
Last edited by oldrcr; 10-15-2011 at 10:51 AM.
10-15-2011, 10:46 AM
#131
Blinky mode should be RPM limit not timing limit. Combine that with FDR limit and it is simple. FDR can also be different from track to track depending on size.
If speed is what differentiates the classes in each car category, do the simplest thing, limit final RPM to the wheels. Simple, done, top speed is limited. Leave mod to be open, decide on a top RPM for every other class and go racing.
If speed is what differentiates the classes in each car category, do the simplest thing, limit final RPM to the wheels. Simple, done, top speed is limited. Leave mod to be open, decide on a top RPM for every other class and go racing.
10-15-2011, 11:33 AM
#132
Yeah this won't work either...And what I mean is that tech needs to be more strict not less. Hara was running software in Super Stock in Vegas that no one else could get in a 17.5 spec class. I was told it just fixed a couple of feel issues with the Tekin, well that is the biggest complaint with Tekin, is the feel. In mod sky is the limit, but in a spec classes we need rules and we need them enforced.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.
Racing is racing. In the end it comes down to who hits the least amount of shit on the track and whos car carries the most corner speed. Always has always will. Ive never been to race where after we said "wow that guy only won because he had so much rip". Its always "that guys car was awesome" or "That guy drove perfect and didnt hit anything". The internet is the only place we start hearing guys bitch about speedo software.
And this whole post isnt directed at you Art. Just the first part about the software was.
EA
10-15-2011, 11:55 AM
#133
10-15-2011, 11:56 AM
#134
Tech Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
If you can't keep out of the boards trying to keep up with somebody who is faster, then maybe work on the driving and setup instead of blaming the faster guy for being fast? Racing drives innovation and creativity, it is what got the current equipment to the level it is at. Want to go back to mechanical speed controls? Can't hack those...but there are still tricks you can do that will make one mechanical speed control faster than another.
Define your classes the way it should be, you want stock? Locked can 17.5 (or 21.5 for some), simple as that. Ignore the ESC, because until all manufacturers produce the exact same product, they will all have their differences.
It is up to US, the racers to utilize what works best for us. But don't tell me that the best alternative is to limit the range of setup options on my car so that somebody else with less knowledge can keep up. How is that fair to somebody else to takes the time to LEARN what works best for them?
Not ranting mind you, just my opinion.
Neil H
10-15-2011, 11:57 AM
#135
Yeah this won't work either...And what I mean is that tech needs to be more strict not less. Hara was running software in Super Stock in Vegas that no one else could get in a 17.5 spec class. I was told it just fixed a couple of feel issues with the Tekin, well that is the biggest complaint with Tekin, is the feel. In mod sky is the limit, but in a spec classes we need rules and we need them enforced.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.