Boost is Dead
04-22-2011, 06:48 AM
#286
Really, on-road just needs to go back to racing in un-prepared parking lots with high visability in the mini strip malls to become popular again.
Having a 'spec' or 'stock class' availiable at the track is pretty much required and it should be the most popular class, as its the 'average, once a week, r/c driver class'.
Everybody has to remember that every track is different though, a 17.5 motor on a small track is just fine where on a big track it would seem slow. If you want the entire country to run 17.5 for a spec motor, then running with or without boost, should be track size dependent and and the rule should vary throughout the different tracks across the country.
Modified class dosen't need to be 'open' modified, just faster than spec or stock. Modified class can or should have a motor limit based on track size as well.
Beginner classes is about getting people on track, they don't even need brushless motors, silver cans sealed endbell motors are just fine.
Having a 'spec' or 'stock class' availiable at the track is pretty much required and it should be the most popular class, as its the 'average, once a week, r/c driver class'.
Everybody has to remember that every track is different though, a 17.5 motor on a small track is just fine where on a big track it would seem slow. If you want the entire country to run 17.5 for a spec motor, then running with or without boost, should be track size dependent and and the rule should vary throughout the different tracks across the country.
Modified class dosen't need to be 'open' modified, just faster than spec or stock. Modified class can or should have a motor limit based on track size as well.
Beginner classes is about getting people on track, they don't even need brushless motors, silver cans sealed endbell motors are just fine.
04-22-2011, 06:51 AM
#287
EA
04-22-2011, 07:00 AM
#288
you are never going to make everyone happy in this hobby, but you can try to do what is best for the masses. I have heard many top drivers this winter say i rather go 13.5 blinky then 17.5 open because it is more consistent and has a better feeling. which makes for better racing. Why was stock 27t racing and 19t racing always locked endbell. To keep things at a reasonable speed and have different "speed" of classes. Timing on motors was always a MOD thing. 13.5 blinky is prob pretty close to 17.5 boosted lap times without turbo kicking in at different spots on the straight depending on how well you hit your lines the two turns before, or it kicking in on the infield and shooting you 8 feet past the next line. I think for on road to be popular again you need the support of vegas, birds, champs etc to support the classes and not always do what the racers think they want, sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
04-22-2011, 07:05 AM
#290
Really, on-road just needs to go back to racing in un-prepared parking lots with high visability in the mini strip malls to become popular again.
Having a 'spec' or 'stock class' availiable at the track is pretty much required and it should be the most popular class, as its the 'average, once a week, r/c driver class'.
Everybody has to remember that every track is different though, a 17.5 motor on a small track is just fine where on a big track it would seem slow. If you want the entire country to run 17.5 for a spec motor, then running with or without boost, should be track size dependent and and the rule should vary throughout the different tracks across the country.
Modified class dosen't need to be 'open' modified, just faster than spec or stock. Modified class can or should have a motor limit based on track size as well.
Beginner classes is about getting people on track, they don't even need brushless motors, silver cans sealed endbell motors are just fine.
Having a 'spec' or 'stock class' availiable at the track is pretty much required and it should be the most popular class, as its the 'average, once a week, r/c driver class'.
Everybody has to remember that every track is different though, a 17.5 motor on a small track is just fine where on a big track it would seem slow. If you want the entire country to run 17.5 for a spec motor, then running with or without boost, should be track size dependent and and the rule should vary throughout the different tracks across the country.
Modified class dosen't need to be 'open' modified, just faster than spec or stock. Modified class can or should have a motor limit based on track size as well.
Beginner classes is about getting people on track, they don't even need brushless motors, silver cans sealed endbell motors are just fine.
This is a thread with many valid points. I don't think getting rid of a boosted class all together is the answer. But there should be sportsman-biased classes where blinky is the rule. sportsman stock, expert stock (boosted), and open mod (let track dimensions and conditions dictate the motor/profile of choice). And leave 12th alone
boost is dead, but this thread is surely alive
04-22-2011, 07:11 AM
#291
We should also acknowledge the difference between the needs of 1s vs: 2s rules.
1s blinky with high turn motors has no feel at all.
13.5 on a tight track is just about where it is viable, more like 10.5, but then you are approaching mod speeds.
On large tracks like Norcal, 17.5 1s is a joke, boost or no boost, it's just too slow.
Ramping esc's help the feel of 1s tons.
But like what someone posted way back in this thread.
Whatever keeps people coming back, and doors open is a good thing.
1s blinky with high turn motors has no feel at all.
13.5 on a tight track is just about where it is viable, more like 10.5, but then you are approaching mod speeds.
On large tracks like Norcal, 17.5 1s is a joke, boost or no boost, it's just too slow.
Ramping esc's help the feel of 1s tons.
But like what someone posted way back in this thread.
Whatever keeps people coming back, and doors open is a good thing.
04-22-2011, 07:13 AM
#292
Whenever I want a simple answer I ask my kids ( they are 11-21 y.o. my daughters dont care and look at me funny when I ask them about R/ C) Three classes Mod, Super stock and Stock separated by motor turn 9 turn and lower MOD open esc and tires ( foams if you want) Super Stock 9.5 turn up to maybe 13.5 with boost Stock 17.5 blinky and 21.5 with boost
and realistic bodies the options are what throws off the balance. there are so many choices for consumers and its too complicated to govern all the variables. You cant tell manufactures to only build a 5.5 turn , 13.5 turn and a 21.5 turn WE buy them so they make them. I raced IGT when they first came out and loved the realistic look and handling of the 1/8th touring car. Racers started dissecting the car in every effort to go faster until they got rid of the best part of the car .... the licensed body. Race means you want to go as fast as possible or at least faster than the next guy and keep the field level some racers feel that newbies will come out with low turn tekin driven mod cars , new laptops and destroy the hobby....(thaTs me) But actually I just wanna have fun. Qualifiers will place me in the appropriate main regardless of what class I run. as far as the cost was realized when I walked into the LHS luckily they instantly recognized my addiction and advised me properly ( my left kidney is on eBay ) if I couldn't afford to race ...I wouldn't. ROAR should govern events they sanction and (insure) thats why I joined for insurance, they should also consult with members who race before the season begins and vote on rules and regulations. I hope to join some of you guys at your local track this year Ill be the one smiling oblivious to all of this nonsense trying to find out how I can get out of the lower mains .....
and realistic bodies the options are what throws off the balance. there are so many choices for consumers and its too complicated to govern all the variables. You cant tell manufactures to only build a 5.5 turn , 13.5 turn and a 21.5 turn WE buy them so they make them. I raced IGT when they first came out and loved the realistic look and handling of the 1/8th touring car. Racers started dissecting the car in every effort to go faster until they got rid of the best part of the car .... the licensed body. Race means you want to go as fast as possible or at least faster than the next guy and keep the field level some racers feel that newbies will come out with low turn tekin driven mod cars , new laptops and destroy the hobby....(thaTs me) But actually I just wanna have fun. Qualifiers will place me in the appropriate main regardless of what class I run. as far as the cost was realized when I walked into the LHS luckily they instantly recognized my addiction and advised me properly ( my left kidney is on eBay ) if I couldn't afford to race ...I wouldn't. ROAR should govern events they sanction and (insure) thats why I joined for insurance, they should also consult with members who race before the season begins and vote on rules and regulations. I hope to join some of you guys at your local track this year Ill be the one smiling oblivious to all of this nonsense trying to find out how I can get out of the lower mains .....
04-22-2011, 07:18 AM
#293
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
The playing field for performance has never EVER been so level, I do love these Rose Tinted views people have on brushed, and how fair having 'locked' timing, we ALL know there was tricks to advance the timing, some legal, some not, but you couldn't go to the Motor Manufacturers website, and download the 'work' involved, you either had to be in the know, or know someone who can. Then you had the maintenance, comm drops etc, heat, wear and tear.
Brushless is a god send to this hobby, people should embrace the technology and all it's advances. OK, for the newbies, have a 'blinky' class to help them get their orientation and what not, but after that, you really want to be treated like a 'newbie'. Just cause you have the ability to ramp the timing up, it don't mean you 'have to'. Anything less than a 13.5 must be slow, 13.5 is fast enough boosted to be exciting without the edginess of a 10.5, take boost away, be like wathing paint dry.
Governing bodies should ONLY be interested in rules for 'National' events, and should never tinker with grass roots racing. If a club decided unboosted, then thats up to the club, no ROAR/EFRA/BRCA etc, a club knows what is best for it's members, not the govening body.
Like lots of you here, I have been racing for to long and can't ever remember running costs being so low in terms of equipment, yes motor cost more, but I have been running the same 6.5 in my buggy for 3 years, 10.5 in the saloon till this year, even the same motor in the 2wd buggy, brushed would of been a lot more costly. I can dial the power down for my kids, dial it up for me, and as the kids improve, turn it up for them to, without any extra cost involved. How having a 'control' motor would make things cheaper is beyond me, it has never worked, never will, will only put the emphasis on your other equipment, then as Brushless is a digital technology, if one esc is faster than someone elses, are they cheating, do you have to go out and buy a new esc.... whole argument is daft in the end.
Brushless is a god send to this hobby, people should embrace the technology and all it's advances. OK, for the newbies, have a 'blinky' class to help them get their orientation and what not, but after that, you really want to be treated like a 'newbie'. Just cause you have the ability to ramp the timing up, it don't mean you 'have to'. Anything less than a 13.5 must be slow, 13.5 is fast enough boosted to be exciting without the edginess of a 10.5, take boost away, be like wathing paint dry.
Governing bodies should ONLY be interested in rules for 'National' events, and should never tinker with grass roots racing. If a club decided unboosted, then thats up to the club, no ROAR/EFRA/BRCA etc, a club knows what is best for it's members, not the govening body.
Like lots of you here, I have been racing for to long and can't ever remember running costs being so low in terms of equipment, yes motor cost more, but I have been running the same 6.5 in my buggy for 3 years, 10.5 in the saloon till this year, even the same motor in the 2wd buggy, brushed would of been a lot more costly. I can dial the power down for my kids, dial it up for me, and as the kids improve, turn it up for them to, without any extra cost involved. How having a 'control' motor would make things cheaper is beyond me, it has never worked, never will, will only put the emphasis on your other equipment, then as Brushless is a digital technology, if one esc is faster than someone elses, are they cheating, do you have to go out and buy a new esc.... whole argument is daft in the end.
04-22-2011, 07:25 AM
#294
Tech Regular
iTrader: (16)
I'm very new to all of this, but since this whole argument is about getting new blood into the sport, maybe my opinion counts.
The thing that drew me in to 1/12 17.5 boosted, the only 1/12 class they run at my local track, was the technology. I think boost/turbo timing adjustment on the fly by the ESC is *really freaking cool*. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I am enjoying the learning process, including the physics involved in suspension setup AND brushless motor technology.
I have a really hard time believing anyone that understands how changing your track width by .5mm alters the car's behavior would have trouble tweaking an ESC profile. Are there many variables to consider? Sure. I just don't see how additional options are bad things.
If there are two guys on the track with the same hardware setup, both driving well, with one getting beat in the straight... would you like to be able to say, "Let me see if I can help you with your ESC settings", or would you rather say, "You got a bunk motor, pony up $80 and try again"? I know which one would have put me off.
The thing that drew me in to 1/12 17.5 boosted, the only 1/12 class they run at my local track, was the technology. I think boost/turbo timing adjustment on the fly by the ESC is *really freaking cool*. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I am enjoying the learning process, including the physics involved in suspension setup AND brushless motor technology.
I have a really hard time believing anyone that understands how changing your track width by .5mm alters the car's behavior would have trouble tweaking an ESC profile. Are there many variables to consider? Sure. I just don't see how additional options are bad things.
If there are two guys on the track with the same hardware setup, both driving well, with one getting beat in the straight... would you like to be able to say, "Let me see if I can help you with your ESC settings", or would you rather say, "You got a bunk motor, pony up $80 and try again"? I know which one would have put me off.
04-22-2011, 07:29 AM
#295
Yes there was a 10 turn limit and it was the worst period of modified ever. The turnouts were actually smaller than they are now and it only lasted 2 years max I believe. They were melting motors down every run. How many mod motors you see burn up today? When that limit was imposed there were a few every race at the Nationals from what I remember! Stockton in 2002 was the last time it was ran that way.
EA
EA
Running a 10 turn spec brushed modified class across every track in the country is just as bad as running a 17.5 non-boosted spec class across the country. The small track, low traction guys would think non-boosted is fine, the large track, high grip racers would think non-boosted sucks.
What I'm saying is the rule should be dictated based on individual track aspects, not a blanket rule across every track. 17.5 is the spec, 12.5 rotor, 30 degrees timing motor. A small or low traction track can set the rule at no boost, a large or high grip track can allow boost.
Why force a blind rule across the country? Most everybody has a speed control that can do both. Let the spec class breath enough to be adaptable across the varying tracks.
04-22-2011, 07:30 AM
#296
You know that is an interesting point for Mod being mentioned, right now it's about as unlimited as it gets, any turn motor, basically 6000mah batteries which give near unlimited power reserve?, I'm not sure anything else in RC does that.
I just had a strange sort of mental comparison snap into my head, with Mod being very 8th nitro like, with anything below being 10th nitro, stirs some interesting analogies within my mind...
I just had a strange sort of mental comparison snap into my head, with Mod being very 8th nitro like, with anything below being 10th nitro, stirs some interesting analogies within my mind...
04-22-2011, 07:32 AM
#297
the debate
Their should be 3 classes:
17.5 no boost locked timing for novice
13.5 no boost locked timing for stock
open for mod (boost, etc allowed)
10 minute mains (this really punishes overgearing, etc.)
You want to go faster than a spec 13.5, put in a faster motor. It makes no sense to blow up motors trying to make them go faster than they were designed to go. If you gear a motor correctly, it will not run hot. If you want to go faster, put in a faster motor.
The choice of motor for a particular class is determined by:
1) the racer's skill and reflexes
2) the track's size, flow, etc
Boost has 2 purposes:
1) go faster than the class should go (13.5 speed in a 17.5)
2) sell more esc's (although tekin locked that up years ago)
The problem is that the diehard racers want to continously push the envelope regardless of the consequences to turnout and interest in the hobby.
1 more thing: experienced racers don't belong in 17.5 novice, period.
17.5 no boost locked timing for novice
13.5 no boost locked timing for stock
open for mod (boost, etc allowed)
10 minute mains (this really punishes overgearing, etc.)
You want to go faster than a spec 13.5, put in a faster motor. It makes no sense to blow up motors trying to make them go faster than they were designed to go. If you gear a motor correctly, it will not run hot. If you want to go faster, put in a faster motor.
The choice of motor for a particular class is determined by:
1) the racer's skill and reflexes
2) the track's size, flow, etc
Boost has 2 purposes:
1) go faster than the class should go (13.5 speed in a 17.5)
2) sell more esc's (although tekin locked that up years ago)
The problem is that the diehard racers want to continously push the envelope regardless of the consequences to turnout and interest in the hobby.
1 more thing: experienced racers don't belong in 17.5 novice, period.
04-22-2011, 07:55 AM
#298
04-22-2011, 08:11 AM
#299
Their should be 3 classes:
17.5 no boost locked timing for novice
13.5 no boost locked timing for stock
open for mod (boost, etc allowed)
10 minute mains (this really punishes overgearing, etc.)
You want to go faster than a spec 13.5, put in a faster motor. It makes no sense to blow up motors trying to make them go faster than they were designed to go. If you gear a motor correctly, it will not run hot. If you want to go faster, put in a faster motor.
The choice of motor for a particular class is determined by:
1) the racer's skill and reflexes
2) the track's size, flow, etc
Boost has 2 purposes:
1) go faster than the class should go (13.5 speed in a 17.5)
2) sell more esc's (although tekin locked that up years ago)
The problem is that the diehard racers want to continously push the envelope regardless of the consequences to turnout and interest in the hobby.
1 more thing: experienced racers don't belong in 17.5 novice, period.
17.5 no boost locked timing for novice
13.5 no boost locked timing for stock
open for mod (boost, etc allowed)
10 minute mains (this really punishes overgearing, etc.)
You want to go faster than a spec 13.5, put in a faster motor. It makes no sense to blow up motors trying to make them go faster than they were designed to go. If you gear a motor correctly, it will not run hot. If you want to go faster, put in a faster motor.
The choice of motor for a particular class is determined by:
1) the racer's skill and reflexes
2) the track's size, flow, etc
Boost has 2 purposes:
1) go faster than the class should go (13.5 speed in a 17.5)
2) sell more esc's (although tekin locked that up years ago)
The problem is that the diehard racers want to continously push the envelope regardless of the consequences to turnout and interest in the hobby.
1 more thing: experienced racers don't belong in 17.5 novice, period.
sure 10 minute mains punishes overgearing.......but it is what the winners will be during regardless of the cost and anyone wanting to run with them will HAVE to do it as well.
"problem is that the diehard racers want to continously push the envelope regardless of the consequences " I think that is the layman's definition of racing
Devil's advocate here......Perhaps it is the Newbie that does not belong in the 17.5 class and that seems to be why the discussion of slowing it down has arisen
Again I can see where Blinky could have it's place, BUT it should not be across the board, every class, every surface
04-22-2011, 08:21 AM
#300
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Thats fair enough, but we are not talking about energy creation are we. This is people expecting rules to be shaped to suit them at a national level, why you would want to have a 'national' competition for rookies is beyond me.... so your chamion among beginners or people who like it sloooow. If you want a National Champ, it should be the fastest of the fast, not the one who can gear the highest.