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Originally Posted by RollingChicane2
(Post 14724791)
I typically don't post on opinion related topics but I'll make one post and then go back to being an observer....
Darkside hits the nail on the head in my opinion. So long as it is available to everyone, I don't see it as a problem. If I can afford the newest of everything, I will buy it an not apologize. If I can't afford it, I will happily run what I have and I won't expect to finish at the top of the order. I'm pretty sure that none of us pay our mortgages with our RC winnings. I don't have to finish on the podium to have fun. Some of the most fun nights of RC racing I have had have been at the back of the A-main. And if one of the guys that typically run the B-main buy some horsepower AND can control it, more power to them (pun sorta intended there....) I appreciate the hard work that Rob and Kevin have put into this class and I will race and support whatever is decided in the end. I think way too often folks get caught up with the competitive side of things and lose track of the reason we do this....it is still for fun right? My finishing order does not determine my ability to have fun. I simply want my car to handle well and to drive a flawless race. If I can do that, I'm perfectly content, even if someone dropped a load of cash to finish ahead of me. One more point, I am not an occasional racer. I race every single weekend and typically do OK. Even with racing every single weekend, year round, I never expect to be the best or beat the best. For anyone that IS an occasional racer, even with the highest horsepower available, the chances of A-maining it amongst a group of consistent racers is not likely and I would hope could still have fun simply by wheeling the car around the track clean and consistently. A crash free night is often the least costly kind of night and that coincides with a fun night most of the time IMHO. Back to my couch as an observer..... |
It's not that advancements in design cause improvements in motor power, it's that in this case there is a massive difference in power between the old and the new motors. Are all these motors going through approval through the various sactioning bodys? If so how are they meeting the specs if they are that much more powerful? I thought specs were in place to prevent this kind of disparity. And even though they meet the existing specs, with that much disparity between the old and the new, shouldn't the sactioning bodies have the responsibility to the racers/organization to say "hold on, we should wait on this". The only people these new motors truly benefit are the top tier sponsored drivers and the manufacturers since all in sponsored racers will, sooner rather than later, have to purchase them either through the need to replace a bad motor or the image desire to have the same equipment as others at the track.
This is what hurts the hobby. Manufacturers trying to out do each other at such a rapid pace. New advancements in motors every few months, new chassis every year. Sometimes these chassis have no significant improvements but are still drooled after. And the price. X-ray and awsomatix have set a new bar in acceptable price point, and others are slowly creeping up. Want to know why onroaf is dyin and off-road is thriving? Look at cost of entry, cost to be even moderately competitive, add to that the complexity of tuning and the precision of driving even a VTA car compared to off road. That's why. |
Originally Posted by Dino_D
(Post 14724548)
Even if the motor is handout, there are still variances in the build quality. At some events, you are able to purchase additional handout motors. If that option is available, I would be the first one to buy a few hand out motors at the event and dyno them to get the best one. I did this before even back in the TCS 540 silver can days to win the Canadian TCS.
If the club allows a $50 hobbywing to be run. I would buy like 10 and dyno them as well and sell off the rest on ebay. You can stop racers from doing this. No matter even if you spec a motor, there are always differences in tolerances. One good way to prevent this is to have a club have 10 handout motors (timing locked and sealed). Drivers pick a number and thats the motor they are given for that round. After the round, it is collected, and numbers are picked again for the next heat and so forth, going into the finals. So no driver has control which motor they get, and it is will make racing a lot more fair. Problem is the time to organize, allow drivers time to pick and install the motor and return the motor after a round. But in the end, it becomes cheaper for everyone to participate in that class. Perhaps an additional fee of $5 could be added to offset the cost of the club buying 10 spec motors for USGT. IF there are multiple heats of USGT, you can stagger the heats in between mod, stock to allow drivers to shuffle the motors around. Just an idea. |
Can someone explain to me why RCGT and VTA were formed as a class?
Why were the current motors selected? honest answer please |
The increases in motor power are due to inadequate rules. If we had concise rules, the constant churning of motor sales via obsolescence would go away.
Some racers here on the thread have said that spending money is a problem for them. NONE have stated that NOT spending money is a problem for them. If you are sponsored or don't mind spending money, that's wonderful. Just keep in mind that making the hobby more affordable has no negative effect on you. But it can have a very positive effect on others... and we need to keep those others racing to keep the hobby healthy. |
Originally Posted by howardcano
(Post 14724730)
Technology is probably not the right word. There is no new or advanced technology in any of the new motors. The performance gain is achieved only by reducing dimensions.
But I understand what you meant. That would suggest that the length 21 turns of wire will be of a shorter length in the Short Stack then in the Standard Stack. If the Gauge and alloy of the copper are the Same. the Short stack should have Less Resistance across each pole. Plus many other factors . So why Can't We have A USGT SPEC 21.5 Motor . A Motor made by manufacurers to Exact standards and specified by Rules. All the Brands could build them . |
Originally Posted by Lone Drifter
(Post 14724836)
If Many of the Gains in motor performance are due to Reduced dimensions, Such as the Stack's length an height are smaller.
That would suggest that the length 21 turns of wire will be of a shorter length in the Short Stack then in the Standard Stack. If the Gauge and alloy of the copper are the Same. the Short stack should have Less Resistance across each pole. Plus many other factors . So why Can't We have A USGT SPEC 21.5 Motor . A Motor made by manufacurers to Exact standards and specified by Rules. All the Brands could build them . |
cause its a step backwards for them...they have spent the RD money to develop the next big thing...waste?....
patience is the key, wait till the phase is over when all the motors are about the same and cap it then...start making companies aware of the issues posted here, by emailing them....let them know whats happening and we are looking to keep these cars at a reasonable speed.....hold up?...hey Rob haven't we already did this?....21.5 boosted VTA?....oh yeah, with a 2 year notice and only one company wanted the task of creating/providing a motor slower than 21.5, so the VTA cars would more of what the class was intended.... now years later after years of complaining about being stuck with one motor, USGT is formed to open up the class and now its too open?....OMG....rather anybody knows it or not...USGT was NEVER a beginner or budget class....USGT is the offspring of RCGT which when I ran it was 17.5 boosted on Xpattern tires with cool azz bodies....its a pure race class....and for those old enough, more touring car as it was intended compared to what it is now. but oh well....if its to much for you.....we love to have more USVTA racers anyday |
The US isn't as small a market for 21.5 motors as you would think. Most of the rest of the world runs 13.5 or mod. In Australia they run 21.5 TC, but I can't think of many others that run "open" 21.5. Most, if they run them run one brands spec locked timing motor.
The US is pretty much the only place that runs 17.5 and manufacturers still dump tons into that. Why? Because it's "spec" racing and they can make huge margins on the 1% motor sales. Have you ever seen a 1% 5.5 turn? No. Because it doesn't matter. |
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
(Post 14724866)
cause its a step backwards for them...they have spent the RD money to develop the next big thing...waste?....
patience is the key, wait till the phase is over when all the motors are about the same and cap it then...start making companies aware of the issues posted here, by emailing them....let them know whats happening and we are looking to keep these cars at a reasonable speed.....hold up?...hey Rob haven't we already did this?....21.5 boosted VTA?....oh yeah, with a 2 year notice and only one company wanted the task of creating/providing a motor slower than 21.5, so the VTA cars would more of what the class was intended.... now years later after years of complaining about being stuck with one motor, USGT is formed to open up the class and now its too open?....OMG....rather anybody knows it or not...USGT was NEVER a beginner or budget class....USGT is the offspring of RCGT which when I ran it was 17.5 boosted on Xpattern tires with cool azz bodies....its a pure race class....and for those old enough, more touring car as it was intended compared to what it is now. but oh well....if its to much for you.....we love to have more USVTA racers anyday I'm not to concerned Yet. I just dont want to see the cost of competition go up so much that Racers will start quitting That also goes for the other class i run too. BTW VTA is my favorite onroad class . There something about the look that is so cool. |
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
(Post 14724866)
cause its a step backwards for them...they have spent the RD money to develop the next big thing...waste?....
patience is the key, wait till the phase is over when all the motors are about the same and cap it then...start making companies aware of the issues posted here, by emailing them....let them know whats happening and we are looking to keep these cars at a reasonable speed.....hold up?...hey Rob haven't we already did this?....21.5 boosted VTA?....oh yeah, with a 2 year notice and only one company wanted the task of creating/providing a motor slower than 21.5, so the VTA cars would more of what the class was intended.... now years later after years of complaining about being stuck with one motor, USGT is formed to open up the class and now its too open?....OMG....rather anybody knows it or not...USGT was NEVER a beginner or budget class....USGT is the offspring of RCGT which when I ran it was 17.5 boosted on Xpattern tires with cool azz bodies....its a pure race class....and for those old enough, more touring car as it was intended compared to what it is now. but oh well....if its to much for you.....we love to have more USVTA racers anyday I'm not to concerned Yet. I just dont want to see the cost of competition go up so much that Racers will start quitting That also goes for the other class i run too. BTW VTA is my favorite onroad class . There something about the looks that is so cool. |
Originally Posted by Lone Drifter
(Post 14724836)
If Many of the Gains in motor performance are due to Reduced dimensions, Such as the Stack's length an height are smaller.
That would suggest that the length 21 turns of wire will be of a shorter length in the Short Stack then in the Standard Stack. If the Gauge and alloy of the copper are the Same. the Short stack should have Less Resistance across each pole. Plus many other factors . So why Can't We have A USGT SPEC 21.5 Motor . A Motor made by manufacurers to Exact standards and specified by Rules. All the Brands could build them .
Originally Posted by gigaplex
(Post 14724859)
Because the USGT market is small compared to the international 21.5 market. It would be nice to get the manufacturers on board, but it's not going to be easy.
And it should be a simple matter to convince at least a few manufacturers to continue to sell what they already sell! |
Originally Posted by theproffesor
(Post 14724873)
The US isn't as small a market for 21.5 motors as you would think. Most of the rest of the world runs 13.5 or mod. In Australia they run 21.5 TC, but I can't think of many others that run "open" 21.5. Most, if they run them run one brands spec locked timing motor.
The US is pretty much the only place that runs 17.5 and manufacturers still dump tons into that. Why? Because it's "spec" racing and they can make huge margins on the 1% motor sales. Have you ever seen a 1% 5.5 turn? No. Because it doesn't matter. |
Hmmm, $15,000.00+ to tool up a new motor design. A new motor for one class? Doesn't make dollars and cents.
People buy new because it is new. A two year old motor won 21.5 USGT at Cleveland. The only thing done to it was replace the rotor. Go figure that at some point, driving and setup came into play. To listen here the only thing keeping some of you out of the show is motor. Sorry, NOT. Go ahead and legislate yourselves out of a fun class that still keeps growing. Go ahead. Those looking for fun will find it elsewhere...just like we did when we started racing USGT. sheesh... |
I think Howard has the best option option out there right now. If we wait, most will feel they have to, and some will actaually have to buy new motors whenever the 2017 timeframe would be. As an organization that has to have the lions share of the 21.5 market (at least in the US) it could be shown to the manufactures that enough is enough.
The worst part about this, is there are no warnings of major changes coming. Manufacturers and motor turners sell the old style litteraly until the day before new the new style goes on sale with no warning. At least chassis manufacturers give a heads up and most people know by now if you buy a chassis in late septeber you are already buyin last years model. Some like TLR will even drop the price of the old chassis selling the older chassis a month or two before release. This is the clue that new ones are on the way At a minimum ROAR could say motor must be approved by x date every year. That way everyone knows that at a certain time a year, new motors might be dropping and it might be best to wait to see if there are any changes. |
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