To ROAR Fixed Timing On Stock Brushless Motors
12-14-2009, 05:46 AM
#61
Noone in electric on-road ever loses to a better set-up car with a better driver. We are all beaten by professional stock racers who have super high timing motors and alien-technology derived speed controls.
These threads prove only that most who race electric on-road have very little grasp on reality....
These threads prove only that most who race electric on-road have very little grasp on reality....
^ Great Post!
12-14-2009, 06:58 AM
#63
I would like to address this to ROAR,
In stock 27 turn motors it has fixed timing, now that we have brushless motors why in stock class are we allowed to play with the timing? This is causing a problem in stock class, why has ROAR officals over looked this?
Messing with timing was a mod thing. Should ROAR make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors?
In stock 27 turn motors it has fixed timing, now that we have brushless motors why in stock class are we allowed to play with the timing? This is causing a problem in stock class, why has ROAR officals over looked this?
Messing with timing was a mod thing. Should ROAR make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors?
12-14-2009, 06:59 AM
#64
The real problem seems to be that the old rules and definitions don't apply to the new speeds and technology.
If ROAR, or any other governing body is unwilling to tackle this monster head-on, then it's up the individual tracks and race directors to figure out what's going to work for their drivers.
So, if anyone out there can do some LEGITIMATE testing and figure out what new rules and defintions can work with the new techonology and speeds, post your findings and let other tracks try out your formula.
Seems that the point of talking and complaining is long past. Brushless, Lipo and programmable ESCs are here. It's up to some forward thinking people to figure it out.
If ROAR, or any other governing body is unwilling to tackle this monster head-on, then it's up the individual tracks and race directors to figure out what's going to work for their drivers.
So, if anyone out there can do some LEGITIMATE testing and figure out what new rules and defintions can work with the new techonology and speeds, post your findings and let other tracks try out your formula.
Seems that the point of talking and complaining is long past. Brushless, Lipo and programmable ESCs are here. It's up to some forward thinking people to figure it out.
12-14-2009, 07:18 AM
#65
I think one of the biggest issues (at least in the northeast) is that the local tracks pick and choose what ROAR rules they want to enforce. The sticker rule is mainly ment to be used at national / major events. Most local tracks do not get a large enough turnout to force faster/sponsored driver to run in a higher class. 17.5 is the most popular class out there. Do you want the tracks to be forced to create a 13.5 class for these driver to race in? Do you want to see the the classes become more diluted?
This issue can not be fixed just by ROAR making another rule. A rule that will get complained about by every racer out there simply because ROAR made it. This needs to be addressed and supported on a local level first. If it's proven to work at that level then maybe ROAR would be more receptive to the idea of an official rule being made.
This is just my .02 cents and not ROAR's official view of the situation.
12-14-2009, 07:21 AM
#67
And why should ROAR do jack squat regarding speedos? So they can be trashed further? Continue listening to people whine about the $30 membership fee, and claim they don't get any benefit from it? Spend their own funds to organize meetings on the subject and pay for the independent lab "testing"? All this so other major races can just say "ROAR Rules" and benefit from ROAR's hard work?
12-14-2009, 07:35 AM
#68
Trust me, if my local club had the numbers, i'd spearhead the effort my self and post our results. I really don't think the general public would find the results of a 10 member club as statistically significant.
12-14-2009, 07:51 AM
#69
This is a article out of Xtreme RC Magazine(October), I dont think it has any thing to do with Scotty's decision, but it sure does explain all the posts about speed contols. We racers are very competitive, and want every edge we can sharpen. The speeds of todays stock classes are far more extreme than they were 2 to 3 years ago. Brushless technology has come a long way since its inception and coupled with LIPO tech, and we are reaching speeds in stoc that are almost pushing mod classes of 5years ago. When is enough, enough?
Many of us enjoy the battles and relish running a close race fought by freinds. As that bug takes hold, it isnt long before we realize that racing in mod is way to fast when running inches from car-breaking lane dividers. The average mortal racer would rather race stock where speeds are slowed down to help our hand/eye coordination. In RC racing, we have a lot of contradictions, and the biggest one seems to be in spec classes: We need to slow down, but at the same time we try to go as fast as possible within the constraints of the rules. We spend time and energy to make our slower cars go faster. Now you may be saying to yourself, "Why do we do this?" Well I hate to tell you, but its our competitive nature. There are plenty of rules to slow other forms of racing down and keep racing tight, and guess what- all those players want to go faster too. NASCAR, F1, Supercross,NHRA,and more all have rules to slow down in order to level the playing field. But technology comes forward and tries to push those restrictions and still, cars are going faster than ever. RC Racing is no different. In this case our electronic speed controls are being pushed and some big advantages are being gained to those with right know-how.
Many of us enjoy the battles and relish running a close race fought by freinds. As that bug takes hold, it isnt long before we realize that racing in mod is way to fast when running inches from car-breaking lane dividers. The average mortal racer would rather race stock where speeds are slowed down to help our hand/eye coordination. In RC racing, we have a lot of contradictions, and the biggest one seems to be in spec classes: We need to slow down, but at the same time we try to go as fast as possible within the constraints of the rules. We spend time and energy to make our slower cars go faster. Now you may be saying to yourself, "Why do we do this?" Well I hate to tell you, but its our competitive nature. There are plenty of rules to slow other forms of racing down and keep racing tight, and guess what- all those players want to go faster too. NASCAR, F1, Supercross,NHRA,and more all have rules to slow down in order to level the playing field. But technology comes forward and tries to push those restrictions and still, cars are going faster than ever. RC Racing is no different. In this case our electronic speed controls are being pushed and some big advantages are being gained to those with right know-how.
The post above is from another thread but I felt it should be brought up here.
I guess this is where I stand on the issue...and when I see any one of the dozen threads like this I scratch my head and wonder why we/I even bother debating this. And I guess I see peoples points BUT.....
If you locked timing on ESC and motors people will always do what they can to be faster! Every new ESC on the market has timing advances...so to me that is a level playing field. For the "spec needs to be cheaper crowd" Castle Creation has something for you too! No matter what rules you put into place the guy who puts in more time, energy and in most cases money, will be faster. You can't spec the fast out of fast...it is what it is.
I am not one of these guys who moans about the guys who are faster then me and wonder what they are doing...cuz I already know...they are better than me. When I race, not only am I competing against the guys in my main, but mostly I am racing against myself from the last race I ran in. Is my setup better, are my lines better...how's my throttle control? That's what's important to me...that's what makes this hobby/sport fun for me.
Honestly, I want to see a race with all of the "ban timing" guys. And what I would be looking for are great lines and no board taps, and I am sure I wouldn't see it from everyone. The USVTA has rules like this in place. I have watched many VTA races and guys are still hitting boards and are all over the track...and guess what they get lapped. And if you just looked at times you could swear the guys at the top of the main were running a different motor...where they? NO. They were just better.
If you can't run the faster equipment run novice. Whether 17.5 is novice...21.5...doesn't matter.
All that limiting advances in technology does is bring on new advances...you can't ban everything guys....you just can't...
Last edited by PitNamedGordie; 12-14-2009 at 08:32 AM.
12-14-2009, 08:15 AM
#70
Just a bunch of Sedans racers fighting how to go slower and still beat everyone in the beginner class....
Lame .....
problem is not
the motors , ESC or even Roar...
Its the racers and their lack of ability to advance and move up ...
Lame .....
problem is not
the motors , ESC or even Roar...
Its the racers and their lack of ability to advance and move up ...
12-14-2009, 08:26 AM
#73
Tech Fanatic
I really, really, really don't understand all the ranting on speed controls and motors. Do you guys actually go out and watch the racing? The people with the most skills, that put in the time, and use their heads are at the top.
Do we really need someone to do the thinking for us? Rules and bans are for a society that can't think on its own. Do you really believe that if everyone had the same exact equipment, Paul Lemieux would suddenly find himself in the Z main. I used think the top guys did well because they had better equipment but after talking and racing with them I realized they're just better drivers and I'm just slow.
Maybe what should be done is to remove all motor limit classes and make it open motor/esc and sort everyone by skill level. The nitro side has been using Pro, Intermediate, sportsman classes. Most places have a sportsman class but adding in an intermediate class would keep the "almost good" guys from getting run over by the Pro guys. But then we'd be complaining about sandbaggers, which is easier to deal with than teching motors and escs.
Do we really need someone to do the thinking for us? Rules and bans are for a society that can't think on its own. Do you really believe that if everyone had the same exact equipment, Paul Lemieux would suddenly find himself in the Z main. I used think the top guys did well because they had better equipment but after talking and racing with them I realized they're just better drivers and I'm just slow.
Maybe what should be done is to remove all motor limit classes and make it open motor/esc and sort everyone by skill level. The nitro side has been using Pro, Intermediate, sportsman classes. Most places have a sportsman class but adding in an intermediate class would keep the "almost good" guys from getting run over by the Pro guys. But then we'd be complaining about sandbaggers, which is easier to deal with than teching motors and escs.
12-14-2009, 08:43 AM
#74
Sometimes, slow is fast.
I learnt that to drive faster, the car needs to be handling well, before concentrating on raw power.
Do we need to limit what power comes out, when sometimes it's only the person using it that needs to learn? (I won the A main and set TQ with a superglued steering arm after racing too fast in Q1), lol.
If prohibiting certain items from racing is an answer, ROAR would be out of peoples good view point.
If allowing anything in racing is an answer, ROAR etc are still are made to look like the guilty party
We have the same situation in the UK, but we dont have foam tyres to worry about. I don't think stock racers in the UK are as concerned as other countries, because we have other cheaper classes to focus on if we wanted to.
My only concern is the cost to be competitive in stock class though, if it is one.
WE as a group of racers should be concerned about attracting new blood, not in our own racing 100% of the time.
And 80?% of new blood in racing starts off slow, in the stock class.
What are the racers/local clubs and the racing affilated groups doing to support that?
Well, the simple answer is the local answer. ASK your local club if you feel there is such an issue with the same people winning in the stock class.
Sometimes, the club has not got the time to offer more than one class of racing due to other classes being raced / the time it takes up in the day for those classes.
The satisfaction of winning a race without blowing X amount of $ is more important to me than keeping up with everyone else's "special" equipment.
For others though, they want their cake and eat it. CHEAP, oh i havnt got the latest ESC.... BUT they want to WIN.
Were people still complaining when someone had an "awesome" stock motor that lapped everyone else?
No, they learnt to admit defeat. There can only be one winner in a race, and plenty of loosers!
If sedan isnt in your taste buds, find another class of racing.
Blame ROAR when there's no one else to race
No "one" is to blame, its all in the WIN mentality and the Waaaambulance when people don't. One big race X manufacturer has the winning 4/10th of a second per lap product, the next big race Y manufactuerer has equalled it, or got something even faster.
Look at F1, and what happened when rules were not "stringent?" enough with diffusers.
I don't think all of what i've written reflects myself 100% but I do get bored of hearing "he's beating me"...
It's racing. these things happen...
I learnt that to drive faster, the car needs to be handling well, before concentrating on raw power.
Do we need to limit what power comes out, when sometimes it's only the person using it that needs to learn? (I won the A main and set TQ with a superglued steering arm after racing too fast in Q1), lol.
If prohibiting certain items from racing is an answer, ROAR would be out of peoples good view point.
If allowing anything in racing is an answer, ROAR etc are still are made to look like the guilty party
We have the same situation in the UK, but we dont have foam tyres to worry about. I don't think stock racers in the UK are as concerned as other countries, because we have other cheaper classes to focus on if we wanted to.
My only concern is the cost to be competitive in stock class though, if it is one.
WE as a group of racers should be concerned about attracting new blood, not in our own racing 100% of the time.
And 80?% of new blood in racing starts off slow, in the stock class.
What are the racers/local clubs and the racing affilated groups doing to support that?
Well, the simple answer is the local answer. ASK your local club if you feel there is such an issue with the same people winning in the stock class.
Sometimes, the club has not got the time to offer more than one class of racing due to other classes being raced / the time it takes up in the day for those classes.
The satisfaction of winning a race without blowing X amount of $ is more important to me than keeping up with everyone else's "special" equipment.
For others though, they want their cake and eat it. CHEAP, oh i havnt got the latest ESC.... BUT they want to WIN.
Were people still complaining when someone had an "awesome" stock motor that lapped everyone else?
No, they learnt to admit defeat. There can only be one winner in a race, and plenty of loosers!
If sedan isnt in your taste buds, find another class of racing.
Blame ROAR when there's no one else to race
No "one" is to blame, its all in the WIN mentality and the Waaaambulance when people don't. One big race X manufacturer has the winning 4/10th of a second per lap product, the next big race Y manufactuerer has equalled it, or got something even faster.
Look at F1, and what happened when rules were not "stringent?" enough with diffusers.
I don't think all of what i've written reflects myself 100% but I do get bored of hearing "he's beating me"...
It's racing. these things happen...
