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Old 12-12-2009, 02:59 PM   #1
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Default To ROAR Fixed Timing On Stock Brushless Motors

I would like to address this to ROAR,

In stock 27 turn motors it has fixed timing, now that we have brushless motors why in stock class are we allowed to play with the timing? This is causing a problem in stock class, why has ROAR officals over looked this?
Messing with timing was a mod thing. Should ROAR make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors?
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:15 PM   #2
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and how do you stop them from doing it on the speedo?
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:34 PM   #3
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The 17.5 class at our track is about 2 laps down from nitro mod. What I'm noticing is the guys that have been doing it for longer know how to push a 17.5 to death with killer speed controls and tricks to get the motor to run cooler at the start of the race. Now add high dollar lipos and you have a class that would be cheaper to run with a more powerful motor that runs cooler.

However, the upside is that it limits the speed of beginners and lessens the carnage associated with beginners with lots of power. So, it's not without benefits.

I do think there should be more narrow rules in stock classes limiting what an esc can do and motors with non-adjustable timing. It wouldn't hurt to limit lipos to an n-1 scenario where n = latest and greatest lipo - 1 year. Maybe a mah and C rating limit. It looks like the technology is improving so fast that it's hard to really pin down any rules. Bushless and Lipo has been around long enough now though to nail something down, IMHO.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:42 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by onroad dude View Post
and how do you stop them from doing it on the speedo?
I think we need to start with fixing the motor problem first. Why are we messing with motor timing in stock class? ROAR has to address this and I think we need to start somewhere.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:47 PM   #5
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On the ESC timing ROAR could mandate a ROAR spec profile and make all manufacturers include it. It could be as simple as a plug in module that must be used between the sensor wire and motor. Or if that's not possible at least a series of LED flashes to let tech know it is in the correct profile.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:06 PM   #6
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Too easy to get around that.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:50 PM   #7
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I was thinking something along the lines of approved production ESCs that does not have the ability to receive firmware updates and have only standard profiles. I.e. it can't be "hacked" easily, at least at club or even semi-pro level. An example of these ESCs would be the current LRP offerings. The trick would be only approving them every so often, say on a 12 month cycle. That way we don't have to keep buying new ones.

Or maybe technology just needs to mature a little more. Once they start with the rules, real innovation will be stifled. New innovation would be centered around how to get around the rules.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:18 PM   #8
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my two cents would be to have a sealed can...no adjustable timing, no rotor changes, no changes at all...and until they can fugure out a way for the speedos, dont really have an answer for that..i just came back from the northeast gtrand slam series first qualifiying rounds...the speeds the 17.5 are going are crazy...defanately needs to be adressed roar...
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:19 PM   #9
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With so many of the said motors out there, it would be ridiculous to tell thousands of racers that they can't race them any more.
The motors themselves can only be timed so far,before they are inefficient .

The speedies are more of an issue, but any kind of control over them will always be gotten around.
It only took the aftermarket tuners a few months to crack the Nissan R35 GTR e.c.u.
Nissan said it couldn't be tuned,they were wrong !! I dare say that they spent a little bit of money trying make theirs hack proof.
Much more than any rc company will ever afford.

Get out there and have fun. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and improve what is THE BIGGEST INPUT to your car's success - Your driving !!!
Drive the wheels off what you do have and stop worrying about everyone else.

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Old 12-12-2009, 05:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
I would like to address this to ROAR,

In stock 27 turn motors it has fixed timing, now that we have brushless motors why in stock class are we allowed to play with the timing? This is causing a problem in stock class, why has ROAR officals over looked this?
Messing with timing was a mod thing. Should ROAR make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors?
NO, Roar should not make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors. Roar can't make anyone do anything. if you ban certain motors, at roar events you will see the lowest turnouts at those events. IMO

could you explain why you think adjustable timing is causing problems in stock.

all i ever read is 'whats a good setup for X-Y and Z and then plenty of answers show up.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:34 PM   #11
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If 17.5 is so damn fast why not just to go something new like 23.5 fixed timing motor? I don't think there is a 23.5 out so it would be easy to get manufactures to agree to make them fixed timing (small potatoes compared to what the esc's do to timing anyway).
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:34 PM   #12
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yeh after grandslam, the following wk at the track they will be faster still since mambas will be fair game now.

R

PS- novak is making a 25.5, but perhaps the general public has been honed on the speed then goin back that far every1 quips that its 'too slow'
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:38 PM   #13
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It would have been very easy for ROAR to control the timing issue on the brushless stuff. All the motors must be approved right? How are they approved? They must meet the requirements. If one of the requirements was still a fixed endbell, like the brushed motors, this wouldn't be an issue.

However, they didn't do that, to many people already have their newer motors and it would be very hard for ROAR to implement that rule without making a lot of people and munufacturer's very unhappy.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
NO, Roar should not make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors. Roar can't make anyone do anything. if you ban certain motors, at roar events you will see the lowest turnouts at those events. IMO

could you explain why you think adjustable timing is causing problems in stock.

all i ever read is 'whats a good setup for X-Y and Z and then plenty of answers show up.
For us stock racers the 27 Turn motor was the standard and the timing was fixed.

Mod racers were allowed to adjust timing.

If you think about it we are not racing stock anymore but mod. We cannot call this stock racing by any means. Racers are having problems in (stock) because of timing issues on the motor, I have even seen guys destroy new motors due to not setting the timing right. This is not fun for the beginner, the brushless motor was suppose to make everything easer, it's not.

If we are to have a stock class we need standars on the motor, even nascar has motor standards. Our so called stock motors use bearings, not bushings where's the bushings. This is not stock racing!
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
For us stock racers the 27 Turn motor was the standard and the timing was fixed.

Mod racers were allowed to adjust timing.

If you think about it we are not racing stock anymore but mod. We cannot call this stock racing by any means. Racers are having problems in (stock) because of timing issues on the motor, I have even seen guys destroy new motors due to not setting the timing right. This is not fun for the beginner, the brushless motor was suppose to make everything easer, it's not.

If we are to have a stock class we need standars on the motor, even nascar has motor standards. Our so called stock motors use bearings, not bushings where's the bushings. This is not stock racing!
your are correct, the 27 turn motor WAS the standard, that standard got changed. and reading the current Roar Rule book, if you are using a 17.5 you are running stock. how many guys have you seen burn up brushes because of over gearing, beginners will always burn stuff up, whether its brushed or brushless, lipo, or ni-mh, at this time of the game, overgearing, overtiming, overheating should be a thing of the past. running a motor at full timing isn't the problem, running to tall a gear with that timing is.

true story, driver A is turning 12.7 second laps, at 105 degrees on the motor, says hey i can gear up i'm only at 100, so he adds two teeth to the pinion, stil turns a 12.7 lap but now the motor is at 130, hey i can gear up somemore, so now the motor is 155, but the lap times are still 12.7,

And you have standards for the stock motor already, there right there in print for everyone to read, NASCAR, yea they have a set of motor rules, but i will bet you dollars to donuts, not all of them are the same.

and using a paraphase from a nascar movie, ain't nothing stock about a stock motor, springs, brushes, filing, polishing, secret soaking sauses for the brushes, on and on, brushless, install in car, oil bearing once a month, call it good, don't buy into the latest and greatest this and that.

but I do know what your saying.
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