2WD electric Sedan to save the class?
12-06-2009, 01:35 PM
#61
Tech Adept
If there was a 2wd touring car; I would get one. I have a few pan cars and it's just not the same.
12-06-2009, 01:36 PM
#62
Pan cars don't work well on lower grip surfaces though - thats why TC killed off Pro10 in the late 90s, they were just much easier to drive on parking lots or unprepared tracks.
12-06-2009, 02:13 PM
#63
For the hardcore racers, they have their classes, both on-road and off-road. Off-road got their entry-level class, Slash, to bring in new blood. We need something like that for on-road.
I think what some of you hardcore racers in on this conversation need to realize is that this most likely wouldn't be the next big racer class, but a fun class to not take as seriously, and that's what's needed I believe.
Last edited by Jato Fox; 12-06-2009 at 04:58 PM.
12-06-2009, 05:29 PM
#64
Yet another class will save nothing!
Let's focus on making the classes we already have better.
Touring needs at most three classes.
Modified - which only makes sense outdoors and for the very best drivers.
Pro-stock (or whatever you choose to call it) - a "fast" stock class, that appeals to experienced racers.
Stock - a "slow" stock class for beginners, that should be inexpensive to start out in.
Soon enough we will work out what brushless motors are right for each class. It seems to me that pro-stock should be either 10.5 or 13.5, and stock should be either 17.5 or 21.5. And that should be enough.
Let's focus on making the classes we already have better.
Touring needs at most three classes.
Modified - which only makes sense outdoors and for the very best drivers.
Pro-stock (or whatever you choose to call it) - a "fast" stock class, that appeals to experienced racers.
Stock - a "slow" stock class for beginners, that should be inexpensive to start out in.
Soon enough we will work out what brushless motors are right for each class. It seems to me that pro-stock should be either 10.5 or 13.5, and stock should be either 17.5 or 21.5. And that should be enough.
Positive thinking is good...but you also need to be a realist.
well that statement and most of your statement sounds like "one have know his limit" kinda statement, like USMC dad at movie American Beauty.
Well I definately broke a lot more with my XX4 than I did with my B4. But the graphite arms on that could be brittle and I broke a few. Yes in general 4wd is more fragile than 2wd...but a lot depends on the car's construction. 1/8th cars are very durable and they are 4wd both on and off-road. The TCs that I have owned except for the TC3 were all incredibly durable.
okay then please no debating over 2WD is or can be more fragile than a 4WD chassis, that insulting my knowledge of RC racing general, depending on car construction haha. what make you think so negative?
If it is so hard to win you should be finding it a challenge to drive. What I find a challenge is taking a good line and consistently following it. I'm not talking about the setup being a challenge. If I'm not winning I'm still being challenged. I haven't raced TC on the carpet at all, rubber or foam. I've only raced it locally on asphalt. Actually I'm not even much of a fan of TC. I'm a pan car guy but race TC as well to get more track time in.
that explained all, you not a TC person, for a modern TC "a good line and consistently following" is easier than any other class thats what made this class so popular and also so dangerous.
Ok you tried 2wd good. I didn't see you mention it earlier that you had. Now you'll have to find enough other people to do it on a regular basis to convince a manufacturer there is a market.
yes I did say that on earlier reply, wow so you giving me another big wall on front of me by saying "Now you'll have to find enough other people to do it on a regular basis to convince a manufacturer there is a market."
I m asking you again why so negative?
Now there was no call for a personal attack. You have no idea what I find challenging and if that even means I'm a good or bad driver. I haven't attacked you in any way. Besides that argument is invalid anyway. A bad driver will get less benefit out of a performance body.
well if you been offended I can't help it that how I felt about your replies.
Local races are a completely different animal than national races. You don't have to pay for air fare and a week's worth of hotel room at a local race so the economy effects them differently.
economy, economy....well like some said hes local track bringing 100 ppl in local racing in Friday night with slash class on a asphalt track, my local track just broke new record in entrees yesterday mostly "TC Rubber class" I remember 2 years ago when some track BAN rubber on their carpet track because it's not right. guess what that track closed after that season and another track cross the town got booming by hosting a rubber class. rubber on the carpet?? most Pan car guys hate it but ppl loving it
I think it's great the Slash class is doing so well don't get me wrong. I've also been around this hobby long enough to see many such classes burn brightly for a short time and die quickly. I've also been a race director for much of those years and for one of the longest running F1 series in the nation if not the longest (over 13 years).
well you keep saying about your experience in this hobby, I was hosting managing races since 80's for RC10 gold tub and 12e/12i so please no more I can preach you with my experience kinda stuff, this is the RCtech there is ppl whos been with RC longer than Nikola Tesla is here they will laugh at us talking about 15 yrs of experience.
Now 1 cell is an interesting idea. That would bring the power down low enough where the cars would be easier to drive and the speeds down where the body style wouldn't matter. Plus the batteries are less expensive and you don't have to worry about balancing them. Someone mentioned in another thread about trying 1 cell with 4wd. I'm not sure how well that would work in 4wd with all that parasitic drag but in a 2wd suspension car that won't be near the problem. In fact I think that might be a really good platform for a f1 car.
like you mentioned above limiting power with out limiting available traction is bad idea, 1Cell lipo? here comes a $1000 ESC of the month! sorry for bieng negative about 1cell lipo idea
well that statement and most of your statement sounds like "one have know his limit" kinda statement, like USMC dad at movie American Beauty.
Well I definately broke a lot more with my XX4 than I did with my B4. But the graphite arms on that could be brittle and I broke a few. Yes in general 4wd is more fragile than 2wd...but a lot depends on the car's construction. 1/8th cars are very durable and they are 4wd both on and off-road. The TCs that I have owned except for the TC3 were all incredibly durable.
okay then please no debating over 2WD is or can be more fragile than a 4WD chassis, that insulting my knowledge of RC racing general, depending on car construction haha. what make you think so negative?
If it is so hard to win you should be finding it a challenge to drive. What I find a challenge is taking a good line and consistently following it. I'm not talking about the setup being a challenge. If I'm not winning I'm still being challenged. I haven't raced TC on the carpet at all, rubber or foam. I've only raced it locally on asphalt. Actually I'm not even much of a fan of TC. I'm a pan car guy but race TC as well to get more track time in.
that explained all, you not a TC person, for a modern TC "a good line and consistently following" is easier than any other class thats what made this class so popular and also so dangerous.
Ok you tried 2wd good. I didn't see you mention it earlier that you had. Now you'll have to find enough other people to do it on a regular basis to convince a manufacturer there is a market.
yes I did say that on earlier reply, wow so you giving me another big wall on front of me by saying "Now you'll have to find enough other people to do it on a regular basis to convince a manufacturer there is a market."
I m asking you again why so negative?
Now there was no call for a personal attack. You have no idea what I find challenging and if that even means I'm a good or bad driver. I haven't attacked you in any way. Besides that argument is invalid anyway. A bad driver will get less benefit out of a performance body.
well if you been offended I can't help it that how I felt about your replies.
Local races are a completely different animal than national races. You don't have to pay for air fare and a week's worth of hotel room at a local race so the economy effects them differently.
economy, economy....well like some said hes local track bringing 100 ppl in local racing in Friday night with slash class on a asphalt track, my local track just broke new record in entrees yesterday mostly "TC Rubber class" I remember 2 years ago when some track BAN rubber on their carpet track because it's not right. guess what that track closed after that season and another track cross the town got booming by hosting a rubber class. rubber on the carpet?? most Pan car guys hate it but ppl loving it
I think it's great the Slash class is doing so well don't get me wrong. I've also been around this hobby long enough to see many such classes burn brightly for a short time and die quickly. I've also been a race director for much of those years and for one of the longest running F1 series in the nation if not the longest (over 13 years).
well you keep saying about your experience in this hobby, I was hosting managing races since 80's for RC10 gold tub and 12e/12i so please no more I can preach you with my experience kinda stuff, this is the RCtech there is ppl whos been with RC longer than Nikola Tesla is here they will laugh at us talking about 15 yrs of experience.
Now 1 cell is an interesting idea. That would bring the power down low enough where the cars would be easier to drive and the speeds down where the body style wouldn't matter. Plus the batteries are less expensive and you don't have to worry about balancing them. Someone mentioned in another thread about trying 1 cell with 4wd. I'm not sure how well that would work in 4wd with all that parasitic drag but in a 2wd suspension car that won't be near the problem. In fact I think that might be a really good platform for a f1 car.
like you mentioned above limiting power with out limiting available traction is bad idea, 1Cell lipo? here comes a $1000 ESC of the month! sorry for bieng negative about 1cell lipo idea
12-06-2009, 07:54 PM
#65
My posts may have been negative toward the idea but none were a personal attack about you or how you drive.
I hope the Slash phenomenon stays around it's great seeing that number of people around. That kind of class has a lot of draw during economic hard times as it is inexpensive to run. But national races losing people is different entirely. The drops in attendance were not gradual as one would expect with people losing interest. They were pretty much over night and occurred at the same time as the economic down turn. Now that the economy is starting to turn around I expect we'll start to see the attendance start coming back up around the end of 2010 and into 2011.
Banning rubber tires on carpet to me would be a mistake and I can see why that track closed up.
Good another seasoned person. The only reason I bring experience up is a lot of stuff like this get brought up by people with no experience.
Limiting traction without limiting power is a mistake. I'd prefer to limit power only. A car with less than optimal traction is not fun for a lot of people, especially on newer people who are still trying to learn how to control the cars. As for the ESC thing...that isn't unique to 1 cell.
I hope the Slash phenomenon stays around it's great seeing that number of people around. That kind of class has a lot of draw during economic hard times as it is inexpensive to run. But national races losing people is different entirely. The drops in attendance were not gradual as one would expect with people losing interest. They were pretty much over night and occurred at the same time as the economic down turn. Now that the economy is starting to turn around I expect we'll start to see the attendance start coming back up around the end of 2010 and into 2011.
Banning rubber tires on carpet to me would be a mistake and I can see why that track closed up.
Good another seasoned person. The only reason I bring experience up is a lot of stuff like this get brought up by people with no experience.
Limiting traction without limiting power is a mistake. I'd prefer to limit power only. A car with less than optimal traction is not fun for a lot of people, especially on newer people who are still trying to learn how to control the cars. As for the ESC thing...that isn't unique to 1 cell.
12-06-2009, 09:01 PM
#66
Well, you can go back and read my post on the third page.
But I will summarize;
Cost Effective RTR or ARTR
Decent brushed electronics with a spec type motor
Some sort of spec like body, that is not air dependent, with scale looks
Tough plastic chassis and suspension pieces
Wide "Spec" tires that last yet provide a good amount of traction
Battery area to have good amount of room for different batteries
And some racers
But I will summarize;
Cost Effective RTR or ARTR
Decent brushed electronics with a spec type motor
Some sort of spec like body, that is not air dependent, with scale looks
Tough plastic chassis and suspension pieces
Wide "Spec" tires that last yet provide a good amount of traction
Battery area to have good amount of room for different batteries
And some racers
12-06-2009, 09:18 PM
#67
if you want a 2wd tc class then just start one at your local track. cut the front belt and you got a 2wd tc.
12-06-2009, 09:33 PM
#70
My posts may have been negative toward the idea but none were a personal attack about you or how you drive.
I hope the Slash phenomenon stays around it's great seeing that number of people around. That kind of class has a lot of draw during economic hard times as it is inexpensive to run. But national races losing people is different entirely. The drops in attendance were not gradual as one would expect with people losing interest. They were pretty much over night and occurred at the same time as the economic down turn. Now that the economy is starting to turn around I expect we'll start to see the attendance start coming back up around the end of 2010 and into 2011.
Banning rubber tires on carpet to me would be a mistake and I can see why that track closed up.
Good another seasoned person. The only reason I bring experience up is a lot of stuff like this get brought up by people with no experience.
Limiting traction without limiting power is a mistake. I'd prefer to limit power only. A car with less than optimal traction is not fun for a lot of people, especially on newer people who are still trying to learn how to control the cars. As for the ESC thing...that isn't unique to 1 cell.
I hope the Slash phenomenon stays around it's great seeing that number of people around. That kind of class has a lot of draw during economic hard times as it is inexpensive to run. But national races losing people is different entirely. The drops in attendance were not gradual as one would expect with people losing interest. They were pretty much over night and occurred at the same time as the economic down turn. Now that the economy is starting to turn around I expect we'll start to see the attendance start coming back up around the end of 2010 and into 2011.
Banning rubber tires on carpet to me would be a mistake and I can see why that track closed up.
Good another seasoned person. The only reason I bring experience up is a lot of stuff like this get brought up by people with no experience.
Limiting traction without limiting power is a mistake. I'd prefer to limit power only. A car with less than optimal traction is not fun for a lot of people, especially on newer people who are still trying to learn how to control the cars. As for the ESC thing...that isn't unique to 1 cell.
12-06-2009, 10:15 PM
#71
i see where youre coming from because i really enjoy tc myself but, its not just touring its all onroad period. all classes are hurting right now but it will bounce back. even if i could get a really cheap car or whatever it wouldnt solve the problem of going to these expensive races because most people have cars and everything they need its just the expense of going to race.
i have two tc's 1 rubber,1 foam, and a 1/12th scale i can only go to the negs thats within four hours from where i live, yeah i would love to go to all but choose not to spend the extra money.
i have two tc's 1 rubber,1 foam, and a 1/12th scale i can only go to the negs thats within four hours from where i live, yeah i would love to go to all but choose not to spend the extra money.
12-07-2009, 02:12 AM
#72
I see from the OP post, we are talking about rear wheel drive here, yes?
Idk about rwd, but in the 90's I liked the yokomo fwd touring cars (would have liked them more if mine was reliable
).
There is less wear and tear, but they do handle differently to 4wd cars, and are not too good to control with too much power going through them.
Maybe a nice "idea" but probably not practical as a tc class.
we already have the m05 minis, they're good and cheap enough as a way in to r/c imho.
Idk about rwd, but in the 90's I liked the yokomo fwd touring cars (would have liked them more if mine was reliable
).There is less wear and tear, but they do handle differently to 4wd cars, and are not too good to control with too much power going through them.
Maybe a nice "idea" but probably not practical as a tc class.
we already have the m05 minis, they're good and cheap enough as a way in to r/c imho.
12-07-2009, 05:41 AM
#73
Tech Regular
Here's what can be done if you work at it. Weight 4 cell 40 oz., 6 cell 44 oz. I don't have top notch tires to test with.(that and my driving needs MUCH improvement) It runs good with 4 cells-6 cells WOW! Don
12-07-2009, 07:40 AM
#74
There are/have been several servicable, lower cost TC's over the years (TC3, HB Cyclone S, Xray T2R), racers continually demonstrate that they don't want to spend less and the club inclusion atmosphere that most tracks have send the message that "if you don't have the expensive stuff then you're doing it wrong".
TC got a huge bump with lipo/BL but is back sliding with the advent of expensive "speed control of the month" issues.
The class has been "dying" for more than a decade, it doesn't need saving. It's just going to keep going like it is. The changes these threads are looking for can only come from sweeping rule changes to limit retail prices of the components and kits. Sounds a little communist but that's exactly how stock and mod motors have been governed for years.
FWIW, this hobby is not getting more expensive, it's actually a great deal less expensive than it was years ago. Batteries used to cost $100 a pack, off road kits were $225 back in 1984 (exactly what they cost now), motors cost the same as they did in the 80's and 90's. now we have incredible batteries and motors that you only need one of and that last for seasons. It's not all bad.
The 2wd spec class described above sounds very much like existing Tamiya silver can F1 racing to me.
TC got a huge bump with lipo/BL but is back sliding with the advent of expensive "speed control of the month" issues.
The class has been "dying" for more than a decade, it doesn't need saving. It's just going to keep going like it is. The changes these threads are looking for can only come from sweeping rule changes to limit retail prices of the components and kits. Sounds a little communist but that's exactly how stock and mod motors have been governed for years.
FWIW, this hobby is not getting more expensive, it's actually a great deal less expensive than it was years ago. Batteries used to cost $100 a pack, off road kits were $225 back in 1984 (exactly what they cost now), motors cost the same as they did in the 80's and 90's. now we have incredible batteries and motors that you only need one of and that last for seasons. It's not all bad.
The 2wd spec class described above sounds very much like existing Tamiya silver can F1 racing to me.
12-07-2009, 08:46 AM
#75
There are "cheap" TC....I am new here and just ordered one. What is killing me is not the kit but the electronics which is over prized and I don't see how this can be fixed because we are willing to pay for it.
Motor $100
ESC $100 (such can't even handle modified class motors, bummer!)
Radio $100
Servo $50
Batteries $40 each.
Interestingly you can get ROAR unapproved "China" BL motor for $15-25, 2.4GH radio set for $25 if you know where to look for. This is just to demonstrate how much profit RC company make.
I think the Stock class should be limited as follows:
- Motor <=$50
- ESC <=$50
Now I think ROAR limits all even stock motors to $149 which is insane!
People will choose iPod, big screen TV, or RC computer game instead.
Motor $100
ESC $100 (such can't even handle modified class motors, bummer!)
Radio $100
Servo $50
Batteries $40 each.
Interestingly you can get ROAR unapproved "China" BL motor for $15-25, 2.4GH radio set for $25 if you know where to look for. This is just to demonstrate how much profit RC company make.
I think the Stock class should be limited as follows:
- Motor <=$50
- ESC <=$50
Now I think ROAR limits all even stock motors to $149 which is insane!
People will choose iPod, big screen TV, or RC computer game instead.