1Likesfoam tire prices, is this rape?
02-11-2004, 03:39 PM
#136
this may help as well.. the trc's cross jacos pretty well
magenta = double pink though.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...rc&FVPROFIL=++
keep in mind that shore/durometer is only a small part of the equation. the chemical compound that comprises the foam is just as important. that is why the natural foam rubber varieties seem to prevail indoors.
magenta = double pink though.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...rc&FVPROFIL=++
keep in mind that shore/durometer is only a small part of the equation. the chemical compound that comprises the foam is just as important. that is why the natural foam rubber varieties seem to prevail indoors.
02-11-2004, 03:46 PM
#137
Tech Master
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
WOW!!! What a thread!! ( as he steps up on his soapbox...... ) Foams are not cheap to manufacture. PERIOD. The mark up on them is more than it needs to be, but it's not completely out of line. No one ever takes into account the level of R&D involved, the complex manufacturing processes or the cost of the EQUIPMENT needed to mass produce QUALITY mounted racing tires. I have been racing for a LONG time, and foams have always been farily expensive, but still cheaper than those ridiculous rubber tires with their 400 possible inserts and 32 different wheel offfsets and stiffnesses.
I also have mounted foams in the past, and I will tell you that to me (and I'm poor), it's worth the additonal $3 or $4 bucks a pair not to have to deal with the mess and inconvenience. Mounting tires sucks!!!
Now on to my third and final point: YOUR LHS IS NOT RAPING YOU!!!!
I happen to know what dealer cost is on tires and it's more than $8.99 a pair, that's more in line with what distributors pay for them. Hobbyshops, especially those with racetracks, need to make money. Most of you buy your kits, batteries, and electronics online to save some cash, and hey to be honest MOST dealers don't make much at all on those "high-ticket" items. So what do the stores have to sell in order to make money.........
TAH DAH......... Consumables. Tires, Brushes, bodies, paint and parts. But hey, you could get all that stuff online too. It's just a damn shame we can't race these cars online though isn't it?
(steps down from soapbox......)
WOW!!! What a thread!! ( as he steps up on his soapbox...... ) Foams are not cheap to manufacture. PERIOD. The mark up on them is more than it needs to be, but it's not completely out of line. No one ever takes into account the level of R&D involved, the complex manufacturing processes or the cost of the EQUIPMENT needed to mass produce QUALITY mounted racing tires. I have been racing for a LONG time, and foams have always been farily expensive, but still cheaper than those ridiculous rubber tires with their 400 possible inserts and 32 different wheel offfsets and stiffnesses.
I also have mounted foams in the past, and I will tell you that to me (and I'm poor), it's worth the additonal $3 or $4 bucks a pair not to have to deal with the mess and inconvenience. Mounting tires sucks!!!
Now on to my third and final point: YOUR LHS IS NOT RAPING YOU!!!!
I happen to know what dealer cost is on tires and it's more than $8.99 a pair, that's more in line with what distributors pay for them. Hobbyshops, especially those with racetracks, need to make money. Most of you buy your kits, batteries, and electronics online to save some cash, and hey to be honest MOST dealers don't make much at all on those "high-ticket" items. So what do the stores have to sell in order to make money.........
TAH DAH......... Consumables. Tires, Brushes, bodies, paint and parts. But hey, you could get all that stuff online too. It's just a damn shame we can't race these cars online though isn't it?
(steps down from soapbox......)
Just a little inside insite.
02-11-2004, 04:17 PM
#138
nismo, cypress - there are maybe more facts stated in your/that last post than in the whole thread to date.
as mr. rimer has said, there are many procedures that are followed to manufacture a quality finished product in the united states. perhaps our cost is appropriate.
i am focused on a less finished product. one that is just a step above the production of the material itself. foam rings. that's it! foam rubber... in the shape of a wide ring.
i am seeking the correct material, and a way to cut it to the aforementioned shape. it seems the cutting is the easy part, as a few generous folks have offered what appears to be an appropriate solution to the latter segment of the process.
as mr. rimer has said, there are many procedures that are followed to manufacture a quality finished product in the united states. perhaps our cost is appropriate.
i am focused on a less finished product. one that is just a step above the production of the material itself. foam rings. that's it! foam rubber... in the shape of a wide ring.
i am seeking the correct material, and a way to cut it to the aforementioned shape. it seems the cutting is the easy part, as a few generous folks have offered what appears to be an appropriate solution to the latter segment of the process.
02-11-2004, 08:47 PM
#139
Tech Fanatic
Seaball- I don't mean to discourage you, but extrusions don't work. There is no domestic supplier capable of producing sheets with the quality and consistency needed for our market. I've been doing this 14 years and it is my job to know these things. It took me 9 years to find the source for this material. In addition, Rubatex, the domestic source used for years, is closing April 2 for good. That means no more greens or blues as we know them. You can keep searching, but I'm not sure your time will be well spent.
02-11-2004, 08:52 PM
#140
Where are Jacos made? Here in the US? Someone explain to me how I can order Nitroshoes from Hong Kong for 8.60 a pair? Ok lets think about this a second..They are made here .. shipped there... sold to me in the US... shipped back to the US to me.. for 8.60 .. versus the 19.99 the LHS charges? They aren't losing money on each one they sell,I guarantee that. We get one weekend out of sedan foams. So each week it cost 50 bucks to race, not counting fuel or parts, just tires and race fees. Isn't there a better solution? Cant someone develop a tire that could last more then one week and provide traction.
02-11-2004, 11:52 PM
#141
Regional Moderator
Originally posted by CraigH
Where are Jacos made? Here in the US? Someone explain to me how I can order Nitroshoes from Hong Kong for 8.60 a pair? Ok lets think about this a second..They are made here .. shipped there... sold to me in the US... shipped back to the US to me.. for 8.60 .. versus the 19.99 the LHS charges? They aren't losing money on each one they sell,I guarantee that. We get one weekend out of sedan foams. So each week it cost 50 bucks to race, not counting fuel or parts, just tires and race fees. Isn't there a better solution? Cant someone develop a tire that could last more then one week and provide traction.
Where are Jacos made? Here in the US? Someone explain to me how I can order Nitroshoes from Hong Kong for 8.60 a pair? Ok lets think about this a second..They are made here .. shipped there... sold to me in the US... shipped back to the US to me.. for 8.60 .. versus the 19.99 the LHS charges? They aren't losing money on each one they sell,I guarantee that. We get one weekend out of sedan foams. So each week it cost 50 bucks to race, not counting fuel or parts, just tires and race fees. Isn't there a better solution? Cant someone develop a tire that could last more then one week and provide traction.
Of course it is banned by roar.
02-12-2004, 12:11 AM
#142
Pricing for things in different countries is often difficult to compare, and does not always have to do with only the costs of manufacture or import/export.
Suppose there are two countries, and the people in these two countries spend money on only two things: living expenses, and foam tires. In country A, the citizens have an average monthly salary of 100 marbles, while in country B, the citizens have an average monthly salary of only 50 marbles.
In country A, after years of competition from different companies and price wars and consumer choice, it turns out that a set of foam tires can be had for 10 marbles, or about 10% of the average person's monthly income. This lets the foam tire producers make a profit, and allows consumers to get as many foam tires as they need while balancing out the rest of their expenses.
Now, a foam tire manufacturer decides to export foam tires to country B. He is astonished to find that no one is buying them, though, at a cost of 10 marbles, which is now 20% of the average consumer's income. The manufacturer realizes that he will have to lower his prices or leave the market. He knows that he can sell tires for as low as 5 marbles and still make a profit -- albeit a small one -- but still better than nothing. So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
Suppose there are two countries, and the people in these two countries spend money on only two things: living expenses, and foam tires. In country A, the citizens have an average monthly salary of 100 marbles, while in country B, the citizens have an average monthly salary of only 50 marbles.
In country A, after years of competition from different companies and price wars and consumer choice, it turns out that a set of foam tires can be had for 10 marbles, or about 10% of the average person's monthly income. This lets the foam tire producers make a profit, and allows consumers to get as many foam tires as they need while balancing out the rest of their expenses.
Now, a foam tire manufacturer decides to export foam tires to country B. He is astonished to find that no one is buying them, though, at a cost of 10 marbles, which is now 20% of the average consumer's income. The manufacturer realizes that he will have to lower his prices or leave the market. He knows that he can sell tires for as low as 5 marbles and still make a profit -- albeit a small one -- but still better than nothing. So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
02-12-2004, 01:07 AM
#143
Tech Rookie
here is the truth:
let use proline for an example:
In US:Proline sells a body to distributors for $5, than they sell that body to hobby shop for $7, than hobby shops sell them at $10.
In Asia(usually small countries or places) the distributor for proline will pay less than $5 since they are the sole agent of proline in that country.(their position is like proline itself in US)Hobby shops will get it for $5 than sell for $7
The main reason why we have to pay more here is because of the middle man(distributors) Most manufacturers do not want to deal with thousands of shops in the US, they just sell their products to distributors and let them take care of it.
But in Asia, there is no need for middle man. Places are smaller and there are less shops.
In US: manufacture-distributor-hobbyshop-you
In Asia:sole agent of manufacture-hobbyshop-you
let use proline for an example:
In US:Proline sells a body to distributors for $5, than they sell that body to hobby shop for $7, than hobby shops sell them at $10.
In Asia(usually small countries or places) the distributor for proline will pay less than $5 since they are the sole agent of proline in that country.(their position is like proline itself in US)Hobby shops will get it for $5 than sell for $7
The main reason why we have to pay more here is because of the middle man(distributors) Most manufacturers do not want to deal with thousands of shops in the US, they just sell their products to distributors and let them take care of it.
But in Asia, there is no need for middle man. Places are smaller and there are less shops.
In US: manufacture-distributor-hobbyshop-you
In Asia:sole agent of manufacture-hobbyshop-you
02-12-2004, 08:19 AM
#144
Originally posted by futureal
Pricing for things in different countries is often difficult to compare, and does not always have to do with only the costs of manufacture or import/export.
Suppose there are two countries, and the people in these two countries spend money on only two things: living expenses, and foam tires. In country A, the citizens have an average monthly salary of 100 marbles, while in country B, the citizens have an average monthly salary of only 50 marbles.
In country A, after years of competition from different companies and price wars and consumer choice, it turns out that a set of foam tires can be had for 10 marbles, or about 10% of the average person's monthly income. This lets the foam tire producers make a profit, and allows consumers to get as many foam tires as they need while balancing out the rest of their expenses.
Now, a foam tire manufacturer decides to export foam tires to country B. He is astonished to find that no one is buying them, though, at a cost of 10 marbles, which is now 20% of the average consumer's income. The manufacturer realizes that he will have to lower his prices or leave the market. He knows that he can sell tires for as low as 5 marbles and still make a profit -- albeit a small one -- but still better than nothing. So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
Pricing for things in different countries is often difficult to compare, and does not always have to do with only the costs of manufacture or import/export.
Suppose there are two countries, and the people in these two countries spend money on only two things: living expenses, and foam tires. In country A, the citizens have an average monthly salary of 100 marbles, while in country B, the citizens have an average monthly salary of only 50 marbles.
In country A, after years of competition from different companies and price wars and consumer choice, it turns out that a set of foam tires can be had for 10 marbles, or about 10% of the average person's monthly income. This lets the foam tire producers make a profit, and allows consumers to get as many foam tires as they need while balancing out the rest of their expenses.
Now, a foam tire manufacturer decides to export foam tires to country B. He is astonished to find that no one is buying them, though, at a cost of 10 marbles, which is now 20% of the average consumer's income. The manufacturer realizes that he will have to lower his prices or leave the market. He knows that he can sell tires for as low as 5 marbles and still make a profit -- albeit a small one -- but still better than nothing. So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
02-12-2004, 08:35 AM
#145
Here is a rough guide that Korgae posted in the Jaco thread
Pink 30
Dpink 35
Purple 40
Dpurple 45
Double pink orange 35/50
Purple/Orange 40/50
Red 50+
Keep in mind, purple/orange is basically a PLAID, Double Pink Orange is similar to the Cyan, and Double Pink is a magenta.
Later EddieO
Pink 30
Dpink 35
Purple 40
Dpurple 45
Double pink orange 35/50
Purple/Orange 40/50
Red 50+
Keep in mind, purple/orange is basically a PLAID, Double Pink Orange is similar to the Cyan, and Double Pink is a magenta.
Later EddieO
02-12-2004, 08:45 AM
#146
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
Originally posted by futureal
~SNIP~ So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
~SNIP~ So he lowers the prices to a point that people start buying the tires that they want, and are still able to balance out the rest of their expenses.
So you have a manufacturer, based in country A, who has decided to undercut himself in country B by selling tires at a lower price than he would normally in order to increase revenue. Are the people in country A being price gouged? Retail markups notwithstanding, I don't think so. This is (a very simple study of) international economics.
02-12-2004, 08:59 AM
#147
seaball-I would think that your quest would be better pursued in an effort to produce higher performance-as opposed to lowering prices. NOt that I have a problem with lower prices-but like all busines ventures-its gonna be REALLY expensive untill your sales are sufficient to pay for all of your start-up costs. And then their is the problem of image. You just dont see top A-Main guys runing Speedmind tires for example-even though they appear to have a realy good rim and all the shores and exotic foams.
But my point is really- that Jaco, Ellegi and TRC SHOULD continue to offer donuts (preferrably direct) so that really hardcore guys like yourself can produce custom made foam tires (i.e. a plaid with more Orange) on special rims (Super hard, soft, big or small diameter, etc.). This becomes even more important in gas touring where 90% of the performance is due to tires in my opinion.
But my point is really- that Jaco, Ellegi and TRC SHOULD continue to offer donuts (preferrably direct) so that really hardcore guys like yourself can produce custom made foam tires (i.e. a plaid with more Orange) on special rims (Super hard, soft, big or small diameter, etc.). This becomes even more important in gas touring where 90% of the performance is due to tires in my opinion.
02-12-2004, 09:31 AM
#148
Tech Master
iTrader: (35)
Another analogy???
This sort of reminds me of the big debate over Perscription Drug Sales. Perscription Drugs are (presumably) manufactured here in the US. US customers are charged $$$$$$. In Canada the same Perscription Drugs are sold for only $$$ (albiet, regulated by the Canadian Government). US customers are now traveling across the border to pay these lower prices. At least one company "was" buying these drugs from Canadian distributors and selling them here for less, but I think the US Govt put an end to that. Anyway, consumers of Perscription Drugs in the US feel that they are helping to "subsidize" the lower cost paid in other countries.
Someone here said that his shop pays $10 for these wheels. I don't know about the rest of you, but my LHS sells these very same wheels for $22.99. IMO, that's a significant increase, and I refuse to pay it, especially considering the life of foam tires. So I race less (indoor/carpet during the winter), and when I need foams I buy on-line. I don't want to see the local track go out of business, but I don't want my family/household to go out of business either.
Someone here said that his shop pays $10 for these wheels. I don't know about the rest of you, but my LHS sells these very same wheels for $22.99. IMO, that's a significant increase, and I refuse to pay it, especially considering the life of foam tires. So I race less (indoor/carpet during the winter), and when I need foams I buy on-line. I don't want to see the local track go out of business, but I don't want my family/household to go out of business either.
02-12-2004, 10:10 AM
#149
you guys if country bis getting tires cheaper the company is loosing any money because he'll make up here by raising the price here to compensate for the loss abroad someone has to pay for the loss!
the manufactuers can afford to lower thier prices but they wont because we the consumer will keep on paying! if the manufactures were smarter they would realize that if they lower the prices there would be more longivity in the sport and not so high a turn over in people leaving because the high cost of racing.
its better making lots of little money
then alot of big money because it will stay consistant!
the manufactuers can afford to lower thier prices but they wont because we the consumer will keep on paying! if the manufactures were smarter they would realize that if they lower the prices there would be more longivity in the sport and not so high a turn over in people leaving because the high cost of racing.
its better making lots of little money
then alot of big money because it will stay consistant!
02-12-2004, 01:56 PM
#150
Very true...
If prices were lowered the manufacturers would make more money, as would the shops. If foams were $20 a set from my lhs I'd buy a shat load more tires, true then down to 58mm and then run them to the rims re-truing every 2 runs. With the current prices on foams I don't true them down at all becuase I can't afford to spent $50 on one set at the lhs every 2 weeks. Hence buying online or hk...
If prices were lowered the manufacturers would make more money, as would the shops. If foams were $20 a set from my lhs I'd buy a shat load more tires, true then down to 58mm and then run them to the rims re-truing every 2 runs. With the current prices on foams I don't true them down at all becuase I can't afford to spent $50 on one set at the lhs every 2 weeks. Hence buying online or hk...