65LikesTC3 Forum
02-26-2002, 08:52 AM
#1216
They probably do bend but ive been running them now for 6 months and am quite competitive in my club so at least i don't have to buy replacements like i would if they snapped.
The other disadvantage is the weight that they add to the car. Unfortunately my club runs indoor in a school hall with loads of chairs stacked round the outside of the track and trips into these soon become too expensive to keep replacing graphite arms.
When i go outdoor in the summer for the Schumacher BTCC series im gonna go back to the graphite everything though.
For club meetings that arent even that competitive anyway (we dont have finals, just an FTD list that sorts out what heat your in next week) I've totally converted my TC3 into a Blue Alloy machine with every imaginable hopup (hence the name)
The other disadvantage is the weight that they add to the car. Unfortunately my club runs indoor in a school hall with loads of chairs stacked round the outside of the track and trips into these soon become too expensive to keep replacing graphite arms.
When i go outdoor in the summer for the Schumacher BTCC series im gonna go back to the graphite everything though.
For club meetings that arent even that competitive anyway (we dont have finals, just an FTD list that sorts out what heat your in next week) I've totally converted my TC3 into a Blue Alloy machine with every imaginable hopup (hence the name)
02-26-2002, 08:57 AM
#1217
Tech Master
Originally posted by blueboy
I've totally converted my TC3 into a Blue Alloy machine with every imaginable hopup (hence the name)
I've totally converted my TC3 into a Blue Alloy machine with every imaginable hopup (hence the name)
I was wondering why you called yourself blueboy. Its so blatantly obvious now. I feel like a dummy. maybe I should change my name to.....carbonfiberblueIRSboy
Last edited by Modena AL; 02-26-2002 at 08:59 AM.
02-26-2002, 09:12 AM
#1218
Its not a name i would have chosen for myself but some gut at my club saw my car (was checking out what just beat him
) and its just what hes called me ever since. I guess it's just kinda stuck
) and its just what hes called me ever since. I guess it's just kinda stuck
02-26-2002, 10:12 AM
#1219
Hi All
I am currently running a tc3, but seem to have too much steering going into corners and too little steering out of corners.
my set up is
front: F+2 arm mount, 0 degree caster blocks, shocks in inner holes
rear: R + 2 + 2, shocks in inner holes
Will 4 degree caster blocks solve this problem?
(I run rubber not foams)
I am currently running a tc3, but seem to have too much steering going into corners and too little steering out of corners.
my set up is
front: F+2 arm mount, 0 degree caster blocks, shocks in inner holes
rear: R + 2 + 2, shocks in inner holes
Will 4 degree caster blocks solve this problem?
(I run rubber not foams)
02-26-2002, 11:53 AM
#1220
Sounds like your front end is too stiff. What springs are you running? You might want to try the rear shocks in the middle hole in the tower also. That will take away some rear traction and the car will rotate better. The 4 degree block will make it worse.
I'm betting it just springs. Too stiff in the front.
Are you running swaybars?
I'm betting it just springs. Too stiff in the front.
Are you running swaybars?
02-26-2002, 12:31 PM
#1221
Tech Initiate
I somewhat agree with rcracingfreak in that your front end may be too stiff (or rather your balance may be off). We would need more information on what springs and oil weight you are running. Also, what type of tires and inserts you are using and where your rear camber links are located. Most importantly, what type of surface are you running on?
I differ on the increasing castor though. If your car is twitchie going into a turn yet pushes at apex and exit, then that's usually a sign that you would want more castor (which the 4 degree block would provide).
Generally, by increasing castor, you decrease entry steering and increase mid-corner to exit steering. This could be the solution that you are looking for. However, there are other adjustments that could be done to solve this as well (eg, adding a front sway bar).
My TC3 had the similar handling traits that you expressed. I changed the standard 0 castor block to a 2 degree one and noticed that the car was much more "linear' going through the corners.
But, to be sure if simply changing castor would correct your problem, we would definitely need more infomation on your set up. Often times, there is more than one solution to fix your problem. Sometimes, it requires a combination of things to get the results you desire.
DT
I differ on the increasing castor though. If your car is twitchie going into a turn yet pushes at apex and exit, then that's usually a sign that you would want more castor (which the 4 degree block would provide).
Generally, by increasing castor, you decrease entry steering and increase mid-corner to exit steering. This could be the solution that you are looking for. However, there are other adjustments that could be done to solve this as well (eg, adding a front sway bar).
My TC3 had the similar handling traits that you expressed. I changed the standard 0 castor block to a 2 degree one and noticed that the car was much more "linear' going through the corners.
But, to be sure if simply changing castor would correct your problem, we would definitely need more infomation on your set up. Often times, there is more than one solution to fix your problem. Sometimes, it requires a combination of things to get the results you desire.
DT
02-26-2002, 01:13 PM
#1222
Couple other things for you MrMR4, if the above suggestions don't work out:
1. Try the 2+0 rear block. Removing the antisquat tends to make the car more stable on corner entry, more steering on exit.
2. Move the rear camber link to the outside hole at the same level it is at nnow. Like upper inner to upper outer. The car will be more stable under deceleration.
this stuff is a little more out there, but if you use up the very good suggestions from the previous post without effect, you can try mine.
1. Try the 2+0 rear block. Removing the antisquat tends to make the car more stable on corner entry, more steering on exit.
2. Move the rear camber link to the outside hole at the same level it is at nnow. Like upper inner to upper outer. The car will be more stable under deceleration.
this stuff is a little more out there, but if you use up the very good suggestions from the previous post without effect, you can try mine.
02-26-2002, 01:39 PM
#1223
Dennis....its the other way around.
Increasing castor increases turn in....decreasing castor increases corner exit steering. Its in the TC3 manual.
He just has too stiff of a front end (in relationship to the rear end)
The other thing to check is the amount of toe in the front wheels. They should have 0 to 1 degree.
Increasing castor increases turn in....decreasing castor increases corner exit steering. Its in the TC3 manual.
He just has too stiff of a front end (in relationship to the rear end)
The other thing to check is the amount of toe in the front wheels. They should have 0 to 1 degree.
02-26-2002, 02:37 PM
#1224
Tech Master
.......
Can someone explain to me the physics behind how something like this, out of ALL things, could break 
02-26-2002, 02:52 PM
#1225
Originally posted by rcracingfreak
Dennis....its the other way around.
Increasing castor increases turn in....decreasing castor increases corner exit steering. Its in the TC3 manual.
Dennis....its the other way around.
Increasing castor increases turn in....decreasing castor increases corner exit steering. Its in the TC3 manual.
Trips
02-26-2002, 03:36 PM
#1226
Tech Adept
Trips -The other manuals you are referring to are in my experience generally correct. The scuhmacher manuals agree with you but that may be because schumacher define caster differently and do funny things with ackerman. They don't include it in the current manuals but the original cougar 2000 back in 93 had a diagram defining caster which was back to front.
The exact effects vary dependant on car and conditions. This is because there are three effects induced by caster which can contradict each other.
Firstly it induces camber change as the wheel turns.The effects of this will depend on the angle of the wheel to start with.Also remeber that camber has two effects first camber thrust (a sideways force due to the angle of the tyre). and secondly it affects the size and shape of the contact patch.
Secondly weight jacking occurs on entrance to the corner. This is because as a wheel with caster turns it forces the chassis to move upwards. On a car with ackerman the inner wheel turns more so lifts that side of the car more increasing the load on that tyre. A car with no ackerman will have no lateral weight transfer. There are also a few cars such as the sst2000 98 spec which have negative ackerman which will induce weight jacking in the opposite direction laterally. The weight jacking also occurs front to rear. There is also a sideways jacking force induced by the wheel turning if it has caster.
Thirdly as you increase caster you increase alteration in the distance between the centre point of the tyre and the centre of the chassis (read as width if that makes no sense). This causes the roll centre to alter.
Also you have to bear in mind that the grip a tyre gives does not vary linearly with load.
There is no way that you can analyse all this and say that you will always get a certain effect. You just have to try it and see.
The exact effects vary dependant on car and conditions. This is because there are three effects induced by caster which can contradict each other.
Firstly it induces camber change as the wheel turns.The effects of this will depend on the angle of the wheel to start with.Also remeber that camber has two effects first camber thrust (a sideways force due to the angle of the tyre). and secondly it affects the size and shape of the contact patch.
Secondly weight jacking occurs on entrance to the corner. This is because as a wheel with caster turns it forces the chassis to move upwards. On a car with ackerman the inner wheel turns more so lifts that side of the car more increasing the load on that tyre. A car with no ackerman will have no lateral weight transfer. There are also a few cars such as the sst2000 98 spec which have negative ackerman which will induce weight jacking in the opposite direction laterally. The weight jacking also occurs front to rear. There is also a sideways jacking force induced by the wheel turning if it has caster.
Thirdly as you increase caster you increase alteration in the distance between the centre point of the tyre and the centre of the chassis (read as width if that makes no sense). This causes the roll centre to alter.
Also you have to bear in mind that the grip a tyre gives does not vary linearly with load.
There is no way that you can analyse all this and say that you will always get a certain effect. You just have to try it and see.
Last edited by dw; 02-26-2002 at 03:40 PM.
02-26-2002, 04:35 PM
#1227
Modena......I believe it's called.....wall-bang-alot-itus.....LOLOL....a friend of mine broke one also.....he sat his car on the front straight and got wacked....(never set your car on the front straight)...i bought an extra one just in case..... ...the manual does say increasing caster gives more steering into a corner......my 1/12 car is the opposite...i lose steering when i increase caster....
...the manual does say increasing caster gives more steering into a corner......my 1/12 car is the opposite...i lose steering when i increase caster....
02-26-2002, 04:40 PM
#1228
Tech Initiate
rcracingfreak--
Ok, just got off the phone with AE and actually, we're both right. It appears that the drivers for AE and the engineers for AE have been going around and around about caster and the effects of increasing it.
Based on my conversation, increasing or decreasing caster will yield different results based on your particular driving style. So, a person that brakes late and turns hard will benefit from increasing camber. A person that drives smoothly and drives more of a "loopy" line will benefit from decreased caster.
I don't know if this makes too much sense, but I understand it...sorta (haha).
Also, the information in the TC3 manual is based on their off-road experiences, so the information in there is not gospel, just some basic principles (not my words, theirs'). If you really think about it, increasing caster would increase initial turn in when off roading. This is due to the tires "edging" more. Thus, they dig into the dirt more -- so the result is increased steering going into a corner. However, in on road, the ground is not going to give as it would in off road..so Mr MR4 may get the sensation that the car is not quite as abrupt going into the corner when he increases caster.
So, I would say that since we don't know how Mr MR4 drives, he could try the blocks to see if it resolves his problem.
And, yes, I also agree with you in that his front end may be too stiff as well (or the rear end is too soft). As I said earlier, there are several different ways to resolve his dilemma. Ultimately, he's going to have to try a few different things (even if it seems unconventional to us) to see if they yield the results he desires based on his driving style.
DT
Ok, just got off the phone with AE and actually, we're both right. It appears that the drivers for AE and the engineers for AE have been going around and around about caster and the effects of increasing it.
Based on my conversation, increasing or decreasing caster will yield different results based on your particular driving style. So, a person that brakes late and turns hard will benefit from increasing camber. A person that drives smoothly and drives more of a "loopy" line will benefit from decreased caster.
I don't know if this makes too much sense, but I understand it...sorta (haha).
Also, the information in the TC3 manual is based on their off-road experiences, so the information in there is not gospel, just some basic principles (not my words, theirs'). If you really think about it, increasing caster would increase initial turn in when off roading. This is due to the tires "edging" more. Thus, they dig into the dirt more -- so the result is increased steering going into a corner. However, in on road, the ground is not going to give as it would in off road..so Mr MR4 may get the sensation that the car is not quite as abrupt going into the corner when he increases caster.
So, I would say that since we don't know how Mr MR4 drives, he could try the blocks to see if it resolves his problem.
And, yes, I also agree with you in that his front end may be too stiff as well (or the rear end is too soft). As I said earlier, there are several different ways to resolve his dilemma. Ultimately, he's going to have to try a few different things (even if it seems unconventional to us) to see if they yield the results he desires based on his driving style.
DT
02-26-2002, 05:00 PM
#1229
Tech Master
Thanks to my trusty friend who is on the same frequency as me, it was able to drive into the concrete curb completely out of control....
. I still don't understand how that broke...i thought the suspension mount would break, or the arm woudl break, or the block carrier would break....BUT NOT the steering rack! I had to go home after that since it was undriveable 
. I still don't understand how that broke...i thought the suspension mount would break, or the arm woudl break, or the block carrier would break....BUT NOT the steering rack! I had to go home after that since it was undriveable
02-26-2002, 06:04 PM
#1230
Tech Adept
Check out my article in Xtreme a couple months ago, it explains both different theories on caster.
There is a stress concentration point in the steering rack where it changes contour for the ball end, not to mention the ball end is where the load is. I have never seen one break though.
There is a stress concentration point in the steering rack where it changes contour for the ball end, not to mention the ball end is where the load is. I have never seen one break though.