The future of 1/12 scale
10-21-2008, 12:52 PM
#121
The IIC isn't the biggest 12th scale race of the year. It's THE biggest TC race for sure, but not 12th scale. The single most popular class at the IIC was still 12th 17.5, and the race is held on the side of the country that traditionally doesn't race 12th scale. 12th stock was the biggest class at this year's Carpet Nats as well.
The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.
17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.
The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.
The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.
17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.
The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.
I don't think that 21.5 is the answer. It will become a war over who can find the smallest spur and largest pinion - and fit it in the pod...
We have a group of new 12th scale drivers running 17.5 at our track, and they are doing well. We found as long as we grouped them together, they are advancing quite well. They just need to develop confidence in driving. Getting passed 3 - 4 times every lap does them no good.
Sometimes we send a pro driver into the fray to play the rabbit like at a dog track helps. The rabbit drives clean lines just fast enough in front of different drivers and gives them something to chase that is driving the track properly. Sometimes people cant see the groove even though it is dark black on the track.
10-21-2008, 02:29 PM
#122
The IIC isn't the biggest 12th scale race of the year. It's THE biggest TC race for sure, but not 12th scale. The single most popular class at the IIC was still 12th 17.5, and the race is held on the side of the country that traditionally doesn't race 12th scale. 12th stock was the biggest class at this year's Carpet Nats as well.
The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.
17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.
The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.
The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.
17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.
The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=
It looks to me the 2.4 cell is nothing but bundled together AA or AAA battery.
Unless you meant something else? Can you show it to us?
Also You said:"the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC."
Well, I have news for you, this class is dying without anybody changing anything to it yet!
The reason it's dying it's because less and less people wants to buy NiMH, granted, some said the new NiMH are way better then previous cells, but it came 6 month too late, people already switched to lipo and loved it, less pack to buy, less pack to carry, no bulky charger to carry, use them as many time as you want in one day, I can go on and on.
Over here we are just discussing how we can better package the 1/12 scale to make it better. Some think it's better to go with single cell 3.7V lipo, and I think the best way to package the 1/12 will be what I layed out in post#1 and post#78.
10-21-2008, 03:22 PM
#123
Tech Elite
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
Posts: 3,891
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
1/12 isnt dying here.On road in general has seen a decline.I think many reasons are to blaim for it.but 1/12 isnt dying.
10-21-2008, 03:46 PM
#124
Tech Master
Mate. PLEASE stop saying 12th scale is dead. It may not be as popular in SOME areas compared to others, but the class is FAR FROM DEAD! The UK Nationals have a reserve list waiting to attend the meetings, each and every Euro's is packed out. How can you possibly say that the class is dead?? It just seems to me that a few people want to use certain battery's, or speedo's or whatever becuase that's what they want to do, that's fair enough, but it does n't mean we ALL have to that. I have used the same TJ Cells matched IB4200 for a couple of seasons now and although they are not as good as they were, they are still usable. The guy that won our Winter Series last season used a brushed motor (and so did I and I finished 2nd overall). We all race our 12ths over here and have the best time racing, with new chassis's coming out all the time, and a choice of what type of electronics you can use so how can you possibly say that the class is dead? Have a holiday over here in the UK and I'll take you to one of the National, we'll see how 'dead' the class really is!! Cheers bud.
10-21-2008, 06:58 PM
#125
Son and I have been racing 1/10 TC for 2 years now. The not so local indoor track 1/12 19T is taking off. I'm assembeling all the pieces to put 2 cars togther. Bought nimh cells to run with, for now..........
The 1 cell lipo thing could it be multiple cells but in parellel to keep 3.7V. I got a 3S 1250mah 8C pack for the mini-T and recoil. Now rewire it to 3P instead of 3S and I got a 3750mah 3.7V pack that is really small, the "C" rating stays the same but amp draw goes up. This pack was cheap and is of name brand cells (heli packs). No problem putting it on 1 side of our T-bar cars and a reciever pack on the other. This seems like a good setup. Will need to add alot of weight but doable.
Just my newb input.
Tim
The 1 cell lipo thing could it be multiple cells but in parellel to keep 3.7V. I got a 3S 1250mah 8C pack for the mini-T and recoil. Now rewire it to 3P instead of 3S and I got a 3750mah 3.7V pack that is really small, the "C" rating stays the same but amp draw goes up. This pack was cheap and is of name brand cells (heli packs). No problem putting it on 1 side of our T-bar cars and a reciever pack on the other. This seems like a good setup. Will need to add alot of weight but doable.
Just my newb input.
Tim
10-21-2008, 07:45 PM
#126
Son and I have been racing 1/10 TC for 2 years now. The not so local indoor track 1/12 19T is taking off. I'm assembeling all the pieces to put 2 cars togther. Bought nimh cells to run with, for now..........
The 1 cell lipo thing could it be multiple cells but in parellel to keep 3.7V. I got a 3S 1250mah 8C pack for the mini-T and recoil. Now rewire it to 3P instead of 3S and I got a 3750mah 3.7V pack that is really small, the "C" rating stays the same but amp draw goes up. This pack was cheap and is of name brand cells (heli packs). No problem putting it on 1 side of our T-bar cars and a reciever pack on the other. This seems like a good setup. Will need to add alot of weight but doable.
Just my newb input.
Tim
The 1 cell lipo thing could it be multiple cells but in parellel to keep 3.7V. I got a 3S 1250mah 8C pack for the mini-T and recoil. Now rewire it to 3P instead of 3S and I got a 3750mah 3.7V pack that is really small, the "C" rating stays the same but amp draw goes up. This pack was cheap and is of name brand cells (heli packs). No problem putting it on 1 side of our T-bar cars and a reciever pack on the other. This seems like a good setup. Will need to add alot of weight but doable.
Just my newb input.
Tim
10-21-2008, 07:58 PM
#127
Someone more electrically adept could answer this?? If I had 4 cells in series could I tap 2 in paralel to get my 7.4 volts for the accessories?? Or 2cells in series wired to 2 cells in series, in series and jump across those to get 7.4V.
??????
Tim
??????
Tim
10-22-2008, 06:59 AM
#130
Here is the direct quote from my first post:
"Why do we have to let this happen? You might ask. Well, if we don’t, we are going to see the death, or near death, of 1/12 scale, based on what I see in my local area, Long Island, NY. It was just three years ago, we had more than thirty people race 1/12 scale every week, and the number were growing, but now, we usually have only 5~7 people racing it. And I know the reason. A lot of people don’t race 1/12 now because they, and I’m one of them, don’t want to buy Ni-MH ever again after using and knowing the benefit the lipo brings. So, if your are a die hard 1/12 scale racer, like I am, that’s why I’ve spent more than a week to prepare this article, and care about the future of 1/12scale racing. Do you want to see the class dwindled further? And it’s not going to get back up anytime soon, because it is not worth the money, $50.00 a pack of 4 cells x 4 = $200.00 battery alone, for 3 month of racing, to get into a class where there is no good competition. And three month is what NiMH usually good for in high level of racing. Almost all of the A-main driver in 1/12 scale in my local track is no longer racing 1/12 scale for now. So, IMO, 1/12 scale racing won’t be meaningful much for the next few years, even for the regional event."
I did say the number of people racing this were growing, and that explain why we saw more car manufacture making 1/12 car. Five years ago, there were no DARKSIDE and DIGGITY. BMI just came out two years ago. But this year, I see a big drop in this class, maybe it's still early in the season, but we shall see.
10-22-2008, 07:14 AM
#131
Tech Elite
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
Posts: 3,891
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
Man if you want to see a huge decline in the class go with your idea and see how many follow.Others have tried the same idea as you and posted their results on this thread.It just doesnt work out to be comatible with what is being run.As for equipment there is no way I will go buy a esc and motor that I wont be able to use in any of my other cars just to run 1/12.If I was going to buy a micro BL setup it would be to setup a 1/18 scalpel. As it stands all i will have to do is buy a single cell lipo and build a 5.00 receiver pack, and all my other gear will work in every other car I run.That has been the appeal of 1/12 especially where we live.After the snow falls you can take your gear out of your 1/10 cars to run 1/12 in the winter and not have to spend the money to buy dedicated gear to put in a car you only run for 5-6 months out of the year. Sorry but you are just being pushy about this now. I have read your posts and I get what you are saying , but you are asking to completely re-structure the class,and that is just too much change at 1 time.
10-22-2008, 07:21 AM
#132
Maybe I have written too much in my first post, and you guys missed some of the things I wrote.
Here is the direct quote from my first post:
"Why do we have to let this happen? You might ask. Well, if we don’t, we are going to see the death, or near death, of 1/12 scale, based on what I see in my local area, Long Island, NY. It was just three years ago, we had more than thirty people race 1/12 scale every week, and the number were growing, but now, we usually have only 5~7 people racing it. And I know the reason. A lot of people don’t race 1/12 now because they, and I’m one of them, don’t want to buy Ni-MH ever again after using and knowing the benefit the lipo brings. So, if your are a die hard 1/12 scale racer, like I am, that’s why I’ve spent more than a week to prepare this article, and care about the future of 1/12scale racing. Do you want to see the class dwindled further? And it’s not going to get back up anytime soon, because it is not worth the money, $50.00 a pack of 4 cells x 4 = $200.00 battery alone, for 3 month of racing, to get into a class where there is no good competition. And three month is what NiMH usually good for in high level of racing. Almost all of the A-main driver in 1/12 scale in my local track is no longer racing 1/12 scale for now. So, IMO, 1/12 scale racing won’t be meaningful much for the next few years, even for the regional event."
I did say the number of people racing this were growing, and that explain why we saw more car manufacture making 1/12 car. Five years ago, there were no DARKSIDE and DIGGITY. BMI just came out two years ago. But this year, I see a big drop in this class, maybe it's still early in the season, but we shall see.
Here is the direct quote from my first post:
"Why do we have to let this happen? You might ask. Well, if we don’t, we are going to see the death, or near death, of 1/12 scale, based on what I see in my local area, Long Island, NY. It was just three years ago, we had more than thirty people race 1/12 scale every week, and the number were growing, but now, we usually have only 5~7 people racing it. And I know the reason. A lot of people don’t race 1/12 now because they, and I’m one of them, don’t want to buy Ni-MH ever again after using and knowing the benefit the lipo brings. So, if your are a die hard 1/12 scale racer, like I am, that’s why I’ve spent more than a week to prepare this article, and care about the future of 1/12scale racing. Do you want to see the class dwindled further? And it’s not going to get back up anytime soon, because it is not worth the money, $50.00 a pack of 4 cells x 4 = $200.00 battery alone, for 3 month of racing, to get into a class where there is no good competition. And three month is what NiMH usually good for in high level of racing. Almost all of the A-main driver in 1/12 scale in my local track is no longer racing 1/12 scale for now. So, IMO, 1/12 scale racing won’t be meaningful much for the next few years, even for the regional event."
I did say the number of people racing this were growing, and that explain why we saw more car manufacture making 1/12 car. Five years ago, there were no DARKSIDE and DIGGITY. BMI just came out two years ago. But this year, I see a big drop in this class, maybe it's still early in the season, but we shall see.
Or, maybe it's because it is really really early in the season and other tracks are still winding down their outdoor activities. Maybe you are spot on and people don't want to purchase Nimh cells anymore and have seen the rumors of the 4-cell replacement battery. Maybe people have seen the posts by Donny in his efforts to test the SMC battery, and what the future will hold with it.
Any way you choose to micro-analyze the current situation, there are still people willing to race you in 12th. It is your turn to step up to the plate and lead if the top notch drivers at your home track are all interested in racing only sedans. There are a bunch of capable drivers at 360 that all race 12th scale. Get some rivalries going and have a blast with who you have to race against. When the time comes for a big race, there will be good drivers there to school you.
10-22-2008, 07:29 AM
#133
Roland,
Why are you so put off by Nimhs? This is insane! I understand that Lipos are the wave of the future but to stop racing a class because you can get a Lipo for the car is crazy. This class is becoming stronger as I see it and no one is complaining about using lipos in my area, the Nimhs are much better than they used to be and they seem to last longer now. Buy changing everything this will only put racers off and not bring them in. I think the reason everyone at your track stopped racing 1/12 is the negitive attitudes about a certain product and the lemming affect followed so everyone stopped. If you bash Nimhs and newbies hear what your talking about, they will think that 1/12 scale racing is not worth trying think about it.
And nobody answerd the question about less weight in a 1/12 and how this would affect handleing and ease of driving.
Why are you so put off by Nimhs? This is insane! I understand that Lipos are the wave of the future but to stop racing a class because you can get a Lipo for the car is crazy. This class is becoming stronger as I see it and no one is complaining about using lipos in my area, the Nimhs are much better than they used to be and they seem to last longer now. Buy changing everything this will only put racers off and not bring them in. I think the reason everyone at your track stopped racing 1/12 is the negitive attitudes about a certain product and the lemming affect followed so everyone stopped. If you bash Nimhs and newbies hear what your talking about, they will think that 1/12 scale racing is not worth trying think about it.
And nobody answerd the question about less weight in a 1/12 and how this would affect handleing and ease of driving.
10-22-2008, 08:09 AM
#134
I've just google: "2.4v Panasonic cell", and I got this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=
It looks to me the 2.4 cell is nothing but bundled together AA or AAA battery.
Unless you meant something else? Can you show it to us?
Well, I have news for you, this class is dying without anybody changing anything to it yet!
The reason it's dying it's because less and less people wants to buy NiMH, granted, some said the new NiMH are way better then previous cells, but it came 6 month too late, people already switched to lipo and loved it, less pack to buy, less pack to carry, no bulky charger to carry, use them as many time as you want in one day, I can go on and on.
Over here we are just discussing how we can better package the 1/12 scale to make it better. Some think it's better to go with single cell 3.7V lipo, and I think the best way to package the 1/12 will be what I layed out in post#1 and post#78.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=
It looks to me the 2.4 cell is nothing but bundled together AA or AAA battery.
Unless you meant something else? Can you show it to us?
Well, I have news for you, this class is dying without anybody changing anything to it yet!
The reason it's dying it's because less and less people wants to buy NiMH, granted, some said the new NiMH are way better then previous cells, but it came 6 month too late, people already switched to lipo and loved it, less pack to buy, less pack to carry, no bulky charger to carry, use them as many time as you want in one day, I can go on and on.
Over here we are just discussing how we can better package the 1/12 scale to make it better. Some think it's better to go with single cell 3.7V lipo, and I think the best way to package the 1/12 will be what I layed out in post#1 and post#78.
I haven't yet seen the panasonic cell, but have heard that it's in development, and would offer us, at least, a voltage parity.
12th scale is dying where you are, yet if you speak with 12th scale manufacturers, and look at other regions you'll see that 12th scale is certainly on the upswing nationally, and even worldwide, and the growth of the class is going on in spite of the fact that you can't strap a Lipo in a car legally. Look how many 12th scale cars are currently on the market. If the class were dead do you honestly think a company like HPI would have released a 12th scale chassis?
Oddly in my region dirt turnouts are down, TC is slowing, and 12th scale is growing. The class couldn't be further from dying, and I'm sorry that your local racers aren't supporting it.
I've used LIPO in 18th scale racing for years. The only reason we chose to use them over Nimh's was the size constraints in the 18th scale X-ray cars. I don't really find them to be any more convenient than Nimh's personally, and they're certainly easier to destroy.
10-22-2008, 08:41 AM
#135
I wish everyone would figure out what we are going to do with the 12th cars.
I have just purchased a 12R5 and a 17.5 (even tho I cant stand round cells any more), I even ordered the hud anc thrust cone and new upper and lower pods to center it up. I had suggested smaller motors like ten years ago and no one would listen. Now i have a Novak GTB 4-cell and havnt even used it yet. Somehow now that I have all new stuff... except batteries for it... I realy would rather see a nice single cell li-po in the car and 17.5. Changing speedo and motor and using cells that I wouldnt be able to use in any of my other cars doesn't seem like a practical solution. I would love to race 12th again. But I do not want all specialized stuff to run it. Atleast for now anyways I can use my (crapy at best) 3700's from my 10R5. Waiting for a ROAR legal Li-po for 12th is killing me already. 1 cell and 13.5 ought to be just about right!
I have just purchased a 12R5 and a 17.5 (even tho I cant stand round cells any more), I even ordered the hud anc thrust cone and new upper and lower pods to center it up. I had suggested smaller motors like ten years ago and no one would listen. Now i have a Novak GTB 4-cell and havnt even used it yet. Somehow now that I have all new stuff... except batteries for it... I realy would rather see a nice single cell li-po in the car and 17.5. Changing speedo and motor and using cells that I wouldnt be able to use in any of my other cars doesn't seem like a practical solution. I would love to race 12th again. But I do not want all specialized stuff to run it. Atleast for now anyways I can use my (crapy at best) 3700's from my 10R5. Waiting for a ROAR legal Li-po for 12th is killing me already. 1 cell and 13.5 ought to be just about right!