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Old 10-29-2008, 01:06 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
Tim, the real problems I have with lipo's are the following:

1. They have no punch to them. They're flatter than hell, and I know this because I have driven a touring car with and without one installed.

2. In order to get the lipo's to be able to come down to the right voltage, you would have to install a voltage regulator. Who do you think will be tweeking them some to get extra voltage from the battery?

3. If you go to a 2 cell lipo and a 380 motor, you're going to screw up how the car handles. Yes I've had this arguement before, but there will be less weight on a bigger contact patch of the tire, and it will affect forward bite etc.

4. The battery itself weighs way less than NiMH's, which willalso affect handling.

5. Cost. I work at a hobbyshop part time and I know what these cells cost. You might as well buy NiMH's. And don't say they last longer or don't fall off like NiMH's, because they do. I've seen it. And what little punch they do have also falls off. I've had racers tell me this.

So, thats my arguements and I'm sticking to them.
You must work in a black hole then. There is no way top drivers would use lipos if they had "no punch", they wouldn't use them if they perceived ANY loss of performance at all.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:11 PM   #212
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You must work in a black hole then. There is no way top drivers would use lipos if they had "no punch", they wouldn't use them if they perceived ANY loss of performance at all.
So then you admit the factory guys have lipo's with punch? That must mean that the battery companies must have started the matching and cycling them. Which means that the whole lipo debate has gotten all of us nowhere.

The reason the factory guys are using them is that most of the sponsers are telling them they have to run them. The profit margin is more than on NiMH's.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:16 PM   #213
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So then you admit the factory guys have lipo's with punch? That must mean that the battery companies must have started the matching and cycling them.
Huh? How exactly does A=B there? Because someone has a lipo with punch, and the one lipo you tried one time had no punch (according to you)? That means something special is going on?
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:18 PM   #214
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So then you admit the factory guys have lipo's with punch? That must mean that the battery companies must have started the matching and cycling them. Which means that the whole lipo debate has gotten all of us nowhere.

The reason the factory guys are using them is that most of the sponsers are telling them they have to run them. The profit margin is more than on NiMH's.
I don't want to sound like one of those "I have a friend who's sponsored" guys, but Mike Haynes runs at our track and he has done a lot of testing of many lipo's with his own money (only discount for one or two brands, not free), and he has switched exclusively to them. I have done my own cycling in terms of AV at least and my #'s match what's printed on my SMC packs, Other brands come close but SMC's usually have the best #s. At least 80% of the locals are running lipos and 95% brushless and we are all well paced. My first lipo was a orion 3200, that pack you could call "flat with no punch" against a new Nimh, a good 4000-5000 pack I bet you could switch out under their nose and hardly tell a difference.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:30 PM   #215
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What ever happens for Fall 2009/Spring 2010, I'll be running 3.7V LiPO or 4.8V NiMH. I'll be buying new pack(s) at the start or 2009 winter season, so it is no extra cost to my racing converting to 3.7V LiPO then. I still have a few decent NiMh packs to last me most of this winter, so conversion to 3.7V LiPO 2008 may be too early for me.

If 7.4V 1:12 were to become the new thang next winter, I'll just ingore its exsistance. There is no need for me or other local racers to spend $200 on a new car, and another $175 on a ESC/Motor Combo. We can keep on keeping on with NiMH and having fun.

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Old 10-29-2008, 04:16 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
Tim, the real problems I have with lipo's are the following:

1. They have no punch to them. They're flatter than hell, and I know this because I have driven a touring car with and without one installed.

2. In order to get the lipo's to be able to come down to the right voltage, you would have to install a voltage regulator. Who do you think will be tweeking them some to get extra voltage from the battery?

3. If you go to a 2 cell lipo and a 380 motor, you're going to screw up how the car handles. Yes I've had this arguement before, but there will be less weight on a bigger contact patch of the tire, and it will affect forward bite etc.

4. The battery itself weighs way less than NiMH's, which willalso affect handling.

5. Cost. I work at a hobbyshop part time and I know what these cells cost. You might as well buy NiMH's. And don't say they last longer or don't fall off like NiMH's, because they do. I've seen it. And what little punch they do have also falls off. I've had racers tell me this.

So, thats my arguements and I'm sticking to them.
I disagree . . . I'm not in the mood to go round and round and address each item so Ill just say I'm with Timmay and DL.
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:47 PM   #217
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You must work in a black hole then. There is no way top drivers would use lipos if they had "no punch", they wouldn't use them if they perceived ANY loss of performance at all.
MikeXray , You said it! There is no way top drivers would run garbage because of a sposorship deal, They would just go "shopping" for a new sponsor.As for drivers running them because they are told to, Some drivers were nervous about the switch due to weighting and car balance issues, not because there was no punch.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:17 PM   #218
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He needs to go run one himself and make up his own mind.

So, have we made up our minds on the topic of this thread?
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:23 AM   #219
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You know Roland, what's turning me (and a lot of others) off here is your presentation. You've got this attitude that is very much like a religious zealot, where you have discovered the one way and the light, and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way is a poor, ignorant dullard to be pitied and talked down to. Some of your comments, especially those in your last post, are so condescending that I will never be able to bring myself to lend any credibility to anything else you say.

There are so many better ways you could have presented your hard work and research that would have engaged the community in constructive debate and conversation instead of alienating anyone who dares to question you.

Take a moment to look back at yourself and consider the fact that whereas you have come up with one possible approach, there may be others out there with equal or greater merit. Perhaps ideas can even be combined to arrive at the ultimate solution.

Either way, when you declare your way to be the one and only possible correct approach you lose all credibility with anyone with any background in critical thinking or the Scientific Method, or even with half a brain and a decent BS detector.

[/rant]

Reenmachine:

Iíve read all your post in this thread. To me, you come across as a reasonable person. This may surprise you that I would comment you positively after you describe me as ďreligious zealotĒ. We all have our opinions about thing, and that opinion forms from the facts/information/knowledge we know about any particular thing. And from time to time, we change our opinion about certain thing as we learn more about it. If I come across to you as ďreligious zealotĒ thatís fine with me, because I can be sure you donít know me well.

Maybe itís condescending, but since you are not I, you really donít know what I have in mind, you can only guess or you can assume and you can be wrong. Or may be I said what I said out of frustration, or it could be a simple observation on my part, I maybe right that some of the people canít envision the picture I paint. I would have been wrong if I have said none is able to see what I see, and I certainly didnít say that. Instead, I said, quote from post# 198:
Ē They, most of them, simply can't envision the whole pictures with this new version of 1/12 I'm talking about. It'll take some time, I know.Ē
You see, I wroteĒ most of themĒ, not ďall of themĒ,
And if you donít agree with the above statement, I have not problem with your disagreement. You are free to think whatever you want to think. Can you believe that a zealot would say:Ē I have not problem with your disagreement. You are free to think whatever you want to think.Ē Well, between you and me, from my heart of heart, you are not one of those I describe as can't envision the whole pictures with this new version of 1/12 I'm talking about.
Whatever it was, if it got you thinking so much so that you would respond at all, in it, itís a good thing. On the other hand, Itís one thing to say people who is not into RC donít understand whatís we are up to, itís quite another to think/assume they are poor, ignorant dullard just because they do not see it my way. Iím not like that, are you? And remember those are your words not mine.

I might have refuted some peopleís argument, maybe I was not diplomatic enough, but you canít blame it on me to point out why people are wrong and where they are wrong. I may not score in style, but you canít say I have no merit in my arguments, and when I point out why people are wrong, I would give reasons XY and Z to back it up. To me, merit of my argument is more important then style.


Quote:
ďYou know Roland, what's turning me (and a lot of others) off here is your presentation. You've got this attitude that is very much like a religious zealot, where you have discovered the one way and the light, and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way is a poor, ignorant dullard to be pitied and talked down to. Some of your comments, especially those in your last post, are so condescending that I will never be able to bring myself to lend any credibility to anything else you say.Ē

Like I have said to some one else, people can tell you something, and itís up to you how you want to take it. I can be wrong in my approach and you can be right on this and I donít assume youíre wrong just because you Ďre critical of me. I will have to ask my friendís opinion see if I come across the way you describe me.

Quote
ďThere are so many better ways you could have presented your hard work and research that would have engaged the community in constructive debate and conversation instead of alienating anyone who dares to question you.Ē

Iím not condescending. If you know so many better ways, show us then, not for me. You do it, so the whole 1/12th scale racer community can benefit from you.


Quote:
ďEither way, when you declare your way to be the one and only possible correct approach you lose all credibility with anyone with any background in critical thinking or the Scientific Method, or even with half a brain and a decent BS detector.Ē

Question: What do you say to those believe the single cell is the absolute one and only possible correct approach to package 1/12th scale? And they are many of them on this thread.

So, you donít like the fact that I strongly believe that 2 Ėcell is a better way to package a 1/12 scale? You seem forgot that I started this thread to discuss how we can better the 1/12 scale car by using 2-cell lipo? There is one thread on the RC Tech talking about using single cell, I made a post once briefly about using 2-cell, I also promised I wonít mention it again at the thread. I think I keep my promise quite well, and Iíve show great tolerance, donít you think?

Imagine this:

A guy open a shoes store, and he decide to sell woman shoes only.
One day, a customer walk in, seeing these woman shoes only. Not happy with what he sees, starting to yell at the storeowner: WHATíS MATTER WITH YOU, NO MANíS SHOES AT ALL? WHATíS WITH ALLTHE WOMANíS SHOES? Donít you think this customer is out of place to say things like that?


Iím sure there is something youíve strongly believed in. Iím sure you love your family dearly, who is in their right mind to tell you that you canít love your family dearly? You love the RC racing so much and you wish you can race 5 days a week, your job allows you to, your family have no problem with it and you can afford it, then who is in their right mind to tell you that you canít race 5 days a week? By the same logic, who are you to tell me that I canít strongly believe a 2-cell lipo is a better way to package a 1/12 scale? Have your friends read my post, and ask them if I have merit in my arguments or Iím a BSer?

Last but not least, YGPM
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:31 AM   #220
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Just take into consideration English is not Roland's first language. Sometimes things get lost in the translation. I've known and raced with Roland for years and he has the best intentions but sometimes it does not come across that way.

Interesting fact, our local club in NY, 360 Raceway is going to offer 1/12th scales the option to run 1c Lipo with 10.5 or 4-cell 17.5 to race together. One of the owners, Donny has been testing both options and have found the net difference in lap times to be less than .1 sec. To offset, the lipo chassis will be allowed to race at a slightly lower weight to help level the .1sec difference.

IMO, this is an attrractive offer for us racers who have little time to work on our equipment. I'll have all my 1/12th scales wired with the 1c lipo and ready to go whenever I find a chance to race
Carl:

Thanks for the suppoting comment, I'm so misunderstood.
when I see you at 360, I would like you try my 2-cell set up and see if you like it.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:35 AM   #221
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Wow -- you shouldn't have devoted so much time and effort to little ol' me!

I'm not even going to attempt to go into that point by point, as there aren't enough hours in the day and I don't have the desire anyway.

As I stated much more succinctly in later posts which you may or may not have read, I take no issue with your new approach -- in fact I admire and appreciate your hard work and dedication. I just take issue with some aspects of your presentation and tone. That's all. No need to go back and forth until we're blue in the face when we could be spending our time playing with toy cars!

Good luck developing your formula!
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:40 AM   #222
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Last but not least, YGPM
??? Don't have one from you...
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:35 AM   #223
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??? Don't have one from you...
You should have by now, and no blue face. You see i'm all smile.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:48 AM   #224
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You should have by now, and no blue face. You see i'm all smile.
OK, I received it. Cheers.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:11 AM   #225
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Hi Roland

i do admire you for thinking out of the box, most people don't have the imagination or possibly skill to do what you have done. When i first read our thread i strongly disagreed with your vision of the future of 12th, partly because i felt that you where trying to mess with my class of racing and partly because i have seen and raced against against a converted car before in the past, and to be honest it just didn't work. However after a certain amount of debate with a friend of mine who works as an engineer for a very well known formula one team i have decided to take the plunge and give it ago myself and see what happens. As part of my testing i will be comparing lap times and ave lap times as well tyre wear.

To help me out Roland what setup have you been using and what car are you running

Cheers Steve
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