Should EFRA allow Lipos?
10-07-2008, 01:58 PM
#62
Now that is the sort of uninformed rubbish that needs to be stopped right now. the problem with NiMh has been a problem with IB. The EnerG and EP cells are back to where NiMh was three years ago - solid, punchy, long-lived and easy to use. In Europe, we also have the Orion SHO, a 3700-based cell that is even better than those two.
Secondly, the battery performance is far less of an issue than it used to be thanks to BL motors. It appears that LiPo performance is pretty much level, since no one battery has been favoured. In which case, teh different speeds we see from cars using LiPo must be down to gearing and timing on BL. This is what we find in 12th - the motors can be made to go as fast as each other when timed and geared correctly, irrespective of battery condition. Cells bought last year are giving me as good a lap time as cells bought this year.
I understand that people like their LiPo, but it is not suitable for 12th, Oval, TC Mod (in Europe) and numerous basher/RTR cars that are all over the shops, and are the main route for people to come into competitive RC. What you're saying is not only not true, it closes out the lifeline we need for the continued growth of RC. If you're not using NiMh today, then please keep your opinions to yourself. Thank you.
Secondly, the battery performance is far less of an issue than it used to be thanks to BL motors. It appears that LiPo performance is pretty much level, since no one battery has been favoured. In which case, teh different speeds we see from cars using LiPo must be down to gearing and timing on BL. This is what we find in 12th - the motors can be made to go as fast as each other when timed and geared correctly, irrespective of battery condition. Cells bought last year are giving me as good a lap time as cells bought this year.
I understand that people like their LiPo, but it is not suitable for 12th, Oval, TC Mod (in Europe) and numerous basher/RTR cars that are all over the shops, and are the main route for people to come into competitive RC. What you're saying is not only not true, it closes out the lifeline we need for the continued growth of RC. If you're not using NiMh today, then please keep your opinions to yourself. Thank you.
10-07-2008, 02:53 PM
#63
Tech Addict
Just posted this in another thread on here, but I think it still applies here:
On-Road:
if you have a look, the STCC series here in the UK has just finished running.
There were three classes running (13.5, 10.5 and 6.5 all with brushed equivalents). All the classes were able to use lipos as well as 6-cell.
Personally I ran a trakpower 4900 in the 6.5 class. People were running the 3600 packs without any power loss problems, but obviously had to add weight to make the 1500g limit.
6.5 with Lipo seems to be the sweet spot for Modifed on-road with Lipo, any lower turn seems to be too much.
Off-road:
most of the guys I know run anywhere from 5.5 to 7.5 with lipo packs (most are using trakpower also) with the lower winds being 4wd compared to 2wd
Hope this helps.
At the same time as running 6.5 with Lipo, I ran 5-cell mod with a 4.5 motor and I feel they compare well to each other in terms of driveability as well as speed.
On-Road:
if you have a look, the STCC series here in the UK has just finished running.
There were three classes running (13.5, 10.5 and 6.5 all with brushed equivalents). All the classes were able to use lipos as well as 6-cell.
Personally I ran a trakpower 4900 in the 6.5 class. People were running the 3600 packs without any power loss problems, but obviously had to add weight to make the 1500g limit.
6.5 with Lipo seems to be the sweet spot for Modifed on-road with Lipo, any lower turn seems to be too much.
Off-road:
most of the guys I know run anywhere from 5.5 to 7.5 with lipo packs (most are using trakpower also) with the lower winds being 4wd compared to 2wd
Hope this helps.
At the same time as running 6.5 with Lipo, I ran 5-cell mod with a 4.5 motor and I feel they compare well to each other in terms of driveability as well as speed.
10-07-2008, 03:10 PM
#64
No use preaching to these guys about the durability of the new NiMh even though its true. Just wait for the next NiMh that has a even higher discharge voltage for the entire 5 minutes. Reguardless of that, who says ROAR got it right? If anything EFRA was correct to go to 5 cell if anything, wait and see what the LiPo guys will come up with first, and even if they now go to LiPo there is less of a weight issue to take care of, although the voltage differences become larger. The size limit is correct although putting a ceiling on the Mah would have been nice too as it would have taken some of ridiculous high Mah/high dollar packs out of the question once the rarer Po packs get worked out and the "team" guys start to run them.
5 cell mod isn't exclusive to EFRA.... I beleive that roar gives you the option to run 5 cell at 1450g or 6 cellnimh/2s approved lipo at 1535 grams.
How do you put a ceiling on MAH when 4200nimh are taking in 4800-5000mah?
10-07-2008, 03:37 PM
#65
The limit I was refering to would be for the LiPo packs, at that was meant to be applied to them before they run into the same issue as the NiMh have now. Run away labeling. Until some kind of agreed upon standards can be used by all the makers and distributers of LiPo and some actual relevent numbers can be produced that mean something to the average buyer of these cells, right now, its a very buyer beware market.
Also high ended accepted Mah numbers don't neccessarily mean big discharge numbers either in NiMh batteries. If they where getting 5k in discharge at 30 amps, it would be a totally different game again.
11-05-2009, 02:10 AM
#66
It is not official yet, but seems that finally EFRA Approved Lipo for 1/10 TC.
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now
) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now
) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?
11-05-2009, 02:45 AM
#67
It is not official yet, but seems that finally EFRA Approved Lipo for 1/10 TC.
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now ) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now
) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?It may be that the 6.6V and 6V packs can compete in open mod, simply by running a slightly hotter wind.
11-05-2009, 01:58 PM
#68
Tech Adept
I don't race in Europe so it is a non-issue for me but as an outsider this whole conversation doesn't make any damn sense. They should allow lipo, if you think you will be faster with 5 cell run five cell, run lipo if you think that is faster (or test and find out which is actually faster). I will never go back to nicd/nimh as lipo is just easier to deal with and with quality cells it is cheaper in the long run. The competition itself will level itself out in time.
Also the argument that the cars will be too fast on 7.4v is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. You can only go as fast as traction and the circuit itself allows you too. If you cannot grasp setting up a car to fit a track prepare to be a consistent loser. If people can't figure out they will need to run a less hot motor or more conservative gearing for a particular track with the extra voltage they deserve to lose for their ignorance.
Also the argument that the cars will be too fast on 7.4v is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. You can only go as fast as traction and the circuit itself allows you too. If you cannot grasp setting up a car to fit a track prepare to be a consistent loser. If people can't figure out they will need to run a less hot motor or more conservative gearing for a particular track with the extra voltage they deserve to lose for their ignorance.
11-05-2009, 07:07 PM
#69
I don't race in Europe so it is a non-issue for me but as an outsider this whole conversation doesn't make any damn sense. They should allow lipo, if you think you will be faster with 5 cell run five cell, run lipo if you think that is faster (or test and find out which is actually faster). I will never go back to nicd/nimh as lipo is just easier to deal with and with quality cells it is cheaper in the long run. The competition itself will level itself out in time.
Also the argument that the cars will be too fast on 7.4v is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. You can only go as fast as traction and the circuit itself allows you too. If you cannot grasp setting up a car to fit a track prepare to be a consistent loser. If people can't figure out they will need to run a less hot motor or more conservative gearing for a particular track with the extra voltage they deserve to lose for their ignorance.
Also the argument that the cars will be too fast on 7.4v is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. You can only go as fast as traction and the circuit itself allows you too. If you cannot grasp setting up a car to fit a track prepare to be a consistent loser. If people can't figure out they will need to run a less hot motor or more conservative gearing for a particular track with the extra voltage they deserve to lose for their ignorance.
What class do you run?
11-06-2009, 06:38 AM
#70
Tech Adept
Not that it has anything to do with the conversation at hand but off road right now, SCT and 2wd mod buggy, which is one of the classes with the most need for proper set up and picking the right motor for a track of any type of rc racing on earth. But it is all universal (racing that is), do this and the cars responds in this way, do that and it responds that way - LEARN TO ADAPT OR GO EXTINCT.
I also run a TC4 for speed running. Not saying that I know everything or always get it right but I have a little bit of experience with trying to put down too much power and fiddling with lipos.
There is a reason so many are jumping ship to lipo from nimh (in all forms of rc racing) despite the risks and as more and more cars are designed with lipo in mind it is going to get harder and harder for those that insist on staying with the old batteries to stay competitive anyway. With that in mind EFRA better go lipo if they intend for their racers to stay competitive on a world stage.
I also run a TC4 for speed running. Not saying that I know everything or always get it right but I have a little bit of experience with trying to put down too much power and fiddling with lipos.
There is a reason so many are jumping ship to lipo from nimh (in all forms of rc racing) despite the risks and as more and more cars are designed with lipo in mind it is going to get harder and harder for those that insist on staying with the old batteries to stay competitive anyway. With that in mind EFRA better go lipo if they intend for their racers to stay competitive on a world stage.
11-06-2009, 07:13 AM
#71
Not that it has anything to do with the conversation at hand but off road right now, SCT and 2wd mod buggy, which is one of the classes with the most need for proper set up and picking the right motor for a track of any type of rc racing on earth. But it is all universal (racing that is), do this and the cars responds in this way, do that and it responds that way - LEARN TO ADAPT OR GO EXTINCT.
I also run a TC4 for speed running. Not saying that I know everything or always get it right but I have a little bit of experience with trying to put down too much power and fiddling with lipos.
There is a reason so many are jumping ship to lipo from nimh (in all forms of rc racing) despite the risks and as more and more cars are designed with lipo in mind it is going to get harder and harder for those that insist on staying with the old batteries to stay competitive anyway. With that in mind EFRA better go lipo if they intend for their racers to stay competitive on a world stage.
I also run a TC4 for speed running. Not saying that I know everything or always get it right but I have a little bit of experience with trying to put down too much power and fiddling with lipos.
There is a reason so many are jumping ship to lipo from nimh (in all forms of rc racing) despite the risks and as more and more cars are designed with lipo in mind it is going to get harder and harder for those that insist on staying with the old batteries to stay competitive anyway. With that in mind EFRA better go lipo if they intend for their racers to stay competitive on a world stage.
11-06-2009, 02:01 PM
#72
Tech Apprentice
It is not official yet, but seems that finally EFRA Approved Lipo for 1/10 TC.
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now ) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?
However is quite strange the final (?) rule:
"1/10 Touring scale cars will be driven by a maximum of FIVE NiCd or NIMH cells, or a lithium based (LiPo/LIFE) battery. maximum nominal voltage is 7.4 V/6.6volts. Receiver batteries are not allowed"
LiFe chemistry will be allowed too, what is good, but at the same scale, cars with 5 NiMh cells, with 2S LiFe, or 2S LiPo I think is not right.
Or will they make some races for Lipo others for LiFe,...and so on?
Or the ideia is just to have in paper that everything is allowed (ahead of ROAR now
) and then each driver will choose what suits him better?Your last sentence is right. We have it all in the book so next year all racers can decide for themselves what battery to use.
Lithium based batteries are allowed from the abovementioned date in all electric classes.
What was also, in my opinion, very good, was that we directly adepted the new world spec size rules for Lipo batteries.
11-09-2009, 02:14 AM
#73
Your last sentence is right. We have it all in the book so next year all racers can decide for themselves what battery to use.
Lithium based batteries are allowed from the abovementioned date in all electric classes.
What was also, in my opinion, very good, was that we directly adepted the new world spec size rules for Lipo batteries.
Efra took so looooong to update the rules to what new technologies allow, but finally it is done...I hope.
Let us wait for the official announce.
11-11-2009, 04:38 AM
#74
Tech Apprentice
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