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Old 05-20-2008, 01:23 PM   #1
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Default CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks

CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, 4 cell, Lipo, Road, Oval, Tips and Tricks

I have been running touring cars, wide pan cars, and racing oval pan cars lately on a large 280 x 70 foot 1/8 scale outdoor track. There is one of each in my fleet. We use a small portion of this on-road track for a paved asphalt oval. Under construction is an indoor carpet track that may become an oval or small road course

Although this thread has 1/10 pan car in the title it is not meant to replace the good on-road pan car thread that seems to be misplaced in the oval car forums. It also will be quite different from the CRC 1/10 pan thread. There has been a small resurgence in pan car activity as a result of normal market forces and possibly my previous pan car thread.

Pantoura, 1/10 pan car, 2S LiPo, tips and tricks.

This thread was quite popular. It was getting 200 views for each of my posts later in its life. I suggest that racers, new to pan cars, read the Pantoura thread up to the first narrow pan car video, about 10 pages. I was a complete pan car rookie at the beginning and got lots of good setup help and general tips. I have a couple of years of pan car experience now as well as years of RC experience with various other cars. My oval experience is increasing as we speak.

This thread is meant to thoroughly explore CRC’s new Battle Axe Oval car and possibly their new GenXPro 10 as well as any 1/10 pan car topics that readers would like to discuss in depth. The thread will be tech heavy as befits RCtech.net. There will be plenty of good quality photos of the test object at hand.

I will continue my reports of testing with brushless and hopefully soon LiPo batteries on the oval. I started these discussion on The Losi LCD Thread.

Also note I had a well read touring car thread that ran simultaneously with the last part of the Pantoura thread.

Associated Factory Team TC5 Tips and tricks

Here are some Pan car suppliers that I have found. If you have additions or corrections to the lists below please send me a Private Message or e-mail and I will edit the new information into this post. This will keep this info condensed.

Cars: Road Cars and Oval Cars

CRC
Calandra Racing Concepts (CRC)
(Makers of the Carpet Knife and Bloody Carpet Knife)

Battle Axe 200 mm
Oval Pan Car

GenX Pro 10 200mm (or convertible to 235 mm)
Road Pan Car

Custom Works
Aggressor Oval Slider Car Kit

KSG
Oval Car Kit

Leading Edge
Oval conversion slider kit

KSKT racing products
SK spec conversion

Wide Pan Conversion for the Pantoura or RC10L3T
Powell Racing Components
New graphite chassis, bottom and top pod plates available.
"The top pod plate is one that I offer for the 10L2 to convert to a tri-shock setup." Picture.

BMI Racing
DB10R 200 mm- Road Pan Car

Hyperdrive
Pro 1/10 on-Road
Hyperdrive Pro 3 team slider kit oval

Team SpeedMerchant
Street Spec (solid front end)

DarkSide Motorsports
I-force. 1/10 on road pan narrow, (wide), adjustable
large photo

Corally
Corally CCT
1/10 Narrow (190-200mm wide) Entry Level Pan Car

Corally C10 X
Top level wide pan car

Associated
RC10-L4O oval car

Associated
RC10 L, RC10 LS (wide), RC10LSS, RC10L2 (wide, 220mm), RC10 L3T (narrow) Various Associated 1/10 Pan Cars are still popular on the used market. These include both early wide 235 mm 1/10 pan cars and later model narrow 1/10 pan cars 190-200mm. Some parts are still available from Associated. Some of these kits and possible conversions are described at the link above.

MLP
Models to be announced July 2008

Foams

GRP Gandini tires
Great tire. Hard to find in the states now.

Trinity
These tires are made by Jaco now. Older TRC tires on a yellow wheel were made by GRP

Jaco
1/10 pan. Four hole mount on rear tire. Black wheel. The pink compound has slightly less grip than a GRP or RC4less tire.

RC4Less Tires
I have tested these tires on orange wheels and they work great on road. I am told they are the same compound as GRP tires on an orange wheel.

BSR tires
These tires come on a black wheel. The pink compound has more grip than the pink GRP or RC4 less tire.

Axles Hubs Bearings, Ride Height Adjusters, Springs
Irrgang Racing Service (IRS)

RC4less.com

Lefhander-RC.com

Niftech

Murdoch Racing
Wind Tunnel, Long travel front suspension, Progressive rate Springs, Heavy duty front axles.

Silva Concepts

Associated Electronics
Very good drawings and manuals for the discontinued cars are available online.

Bodies
VansInvent.com
A nice broad selection of GTP (open and closed cockpit) and F1 bodies with front and rear wing that will fit both narrow and wide pan cars.
a couple of examples are posted in this thread

200 mm Bodies
These also fit 200 mm Nitro Cars

Pro-Line Protoform
Lola T 530 Body

HPI

Peugeot 1/10 GTP body

This is a wide body for 10 L or C10X. It's back in stock. Get the .030 body for outdoors. Very nice looking body with a proper pan car wing with side dams.

McAllister Nissan
Here is a wide pan body I found in stock at Stormerhobbies.com. Works really well on my Wide Pan

Spur Gears (Associated Diff Gears), Servo Saver
Kimbrough
RC10 L2 parts at TowerHobbies.com

Use the associated part number and search tower or stormer for parts for old associated cars.

Shore chart Compliments of Trinity the harder the tire, the bigger the shore hardness, the less the grip.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-trinity-shore-rating-system.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-13-2008 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:31 PM   #2
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The car is in the mail should be here later in the week. Exciting times.
The car is on a couple of months loan from Rick Sieboldt. Thanks for getting this started.
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:43 PM   #3
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You are very thorough sir. Nice job!
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:55 PM   #4
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Thanks

Building the pan car diff
There are all sorts of complicated ways of building the rear diff which include sanding, flattening the rings, etc. In my experience the pan car diff can be built just like the one on a touring car with the use of carbide balls.

Use Carbide or Ceramic Balls, Assembly order
First get a set of carbide diff balls if the diff does not come with them. I have used the same set for two years of hard use. They are still very smooth. If you are running stock or superstock, the lightened diff rings that are (inverted) star shaped from either IRS or lefhander-rc.com are a nice touch to remove rotating mass. (I use these on my 3.5 powered wide pan car as well) Put only a dot of diff grease on each ball. Any excess will be thrown out so don't worry about this. Put a dot of grease on the back side of each point of the star to hold the diff rings in place on the diff flange and hub flange. I assemble the parts like this.
Axle diff side up stick on the first ring.
Next gear bearing flange down (or flangeless on the Battle Axe)
(I put an optional thin associated shim next to take out some of the gear wobble.)
Next inner hub bearing flange down.
Then hub with ring stuck to it with diff lube.
Next the outer hub bearing flange out.
Next Thrust cone with pointy side in followed by 3 Bellville (curved spring washers) pointy side out.

My Preffered Diff Nut
Then an 8 x32 Nylon nut, or if you want your diff settings to stay put use an Associated blue Aluminum Axle Nylock nut from the TC3 or TC4.
The plastic nut threads will always flow away from the constant pressure and require constant adjustment. The Aluminum nut is slightly heavier but well worth it by holding the diff setting perfect. If you overtighten you ruin your axle by pulling out that little threaded stud. This is not much of a problem with our current graphite axles but was with the fiberglass Pantoura axle.

Breakin
Now Adjust the nut untill holding the left tire and spur with one hand the other tire is hard to turn. This locks the diff gear and prevents diff slip. Now run the car 30 seconds holding one wheel stationary. This makes the groove that the balls will ride in. You can easily imagine that cutting this groove with the carbide balls is going to remove any surface treatment you gave the diff rings. So don't bother sanding them.

Final Adjustment
Hold the left tire and spur and rotate that right tire again and make sure the diff is still tight. The diff will not require further adjustment until it gets gritty feeling from wear. It holds up quite a while even on our dusty outdoor track.

When I redo the diff I just wipe it off and reuse the same side of the rings if they are not pitted. Regrease. Turn the rings over if pitted. The carbide balls crush any remaining fine dirt. The diff is very smooth again. Check the outer hub bearing bearing that carries thrust, the first one under your nut often. It will get brinneled from crashes (impact pits evenly spaced), and worn from the thrust loads. Spin it on a pencil point before every race. I don't believe an aftermarket thrust bearing is neccesary as our caged radial bearings are designed to carry a side load.

Axle Bearing
The axle bearing closest to the spur takes the worst abuse. I actually replace this one before each race. When it fails you loose forward drive. This is especially important for mod 3.5 use.
Here is a very light left hand hub from KSG. I just cut mine to look the same but it is not near as nice looking. You may require a custom axle spacer to be able to use it though.


Opposing views are always welcome. Boomer if you still have that large diff schematic we could post it again here.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-23-2008 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:37 PM   #5
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Choice of tires for Asphalt
GRP or RC4less tires
Mod Pan- Purple fronts, Pink Rears (my choice), (magenta rears, Pro-ten's choice)

Stock or superstock (4 cell)
After you get good at driving the beast you will be able to add more steering to this type with a softer front tire. With a 3.5 motor the front pink just does not last very long. With a 13.5 and four cell wear is acceptable on the front pink tires.
Pink front, Pink rears.

On the oval you can tinker with slightly harder tires on the right side of the car. Since you always turn left some guys like pink all around except a purple on the right front.

BSR tires-The pinks were a little grippy on our sugar water treated asphalt oval on my homebuilt car, but very good on Joshs more traditional LE executioner oval car. I am going to try BSR Magentas front and back next.

Guys at the carpet oval nats were using similar tires that we use on asphalt. Few exotics to be found. Plenty of pinks and purple.

If the car is bogging down in the corner go harder. If it is wearing the tire too fast go harder. If you have insufficient forward traction or cornering traction go softer. Generally pink is the limit with mod. White may work with four cell. A foam hardness chart is in the first post.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-21-2008 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:11 PM   #6
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Default Coming to you John

Here are some photos of the car coming to you by this weekend. The caps under the blue tape are for the speed controller. I didn't have time to solder them in. The rest of the body parts are in the bag.

Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:09 PM   #7
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Thanks Rick

I thought I would post this tip that I got by private message from Jason at BMI
"In addition to what you posted, I sand my diff rings so they are real flat and parallel. I do this with 220 grit and then finish with 600 grit. This makes it so you dont need to tighten the diff as much and also takes a ton of load off of the hub bearing."

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Old 05-21-2008, 04:24 AM   #8
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This is a nice thread you started John.

To explain a little as to why we sand them is because the diff rings are stamped and the material tends to cup or become concave(potato chip shape). When we tighten our diffs, we need to tighten them until they do not slip and in order to have the diff work the most efficiently, all 12 balls need to be in contact with the rings for manximum holding force. Sanding the concave shape out of them will allow for all 12 balls to touch easily with minimum clamping force which will take alot of load off of the hub bearing. Otherwise we need to destort the ring with added pressure to get all the balls in contact with the rings. I hope this makes sense. If not i can try to explain it a little better.
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:17 AM   #9
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Right here halfway down the page is step by step article about sanding the CRC diff rings.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Thanks

Building the pan car diff
There are all sorts of complicated ways of building the rear diff which include sanding, flattening the rings, etc. In my experience the pan car diff can be built just like the one on a touring car with the use of carbide balls.

Use Carbide or Ceramic Balls, Assembly order
First get a set of carbide diff balls if the diff does not come with them. I have used the same set for two years of hard use. They are still very smooth. If you are running stock or superstock, the lightened diff rings that are star shaped from either IRS or lefhander-rc.com are a nice touch to remove rotating mass. (I use these on my 3.5 powered wide pan car as well) Put only a dot of diff grease on each ball. Any excess will be thrown out so don't worry about this. Put a dot of grease on the back side of each point of the star to hold the diff rings in place on the diff flange and hub flange. I assemble the parts like this.
Axle diff side up stick on the first ring.
Next gear bearing flange down.
(I put an optional thin associated shim next to take out some of the gear wobble.)
Next inner hub bearing flange down.
Then hub with ring stuck to it with diff lube.
Next the outer hub bearing flange out.
Next Thrust cone with pointy side in followed by 3 Bellville (curved spring washers).

My Preffered Diff Nut
Then an 8 x32 Nylon nut, or if you want your diff settings to stay put use an Associated blue Aluminum Axle Nylock nut from the TC3 or TC4.
The plastic nut threads will always flow away from the constant pressure and require constant adjustment. The Aluminum nut is slightly heavier but well worth it by holding the diff setting perfect. If you overtighten you ruin your axle by pulling out that little threaded stud. This is not much of a problem with our current graphite axles but was with the fiberglass Pantoura axle.

Breakin
Now Adjust the nut untill holding the left tire and spur with one hand the other tire is hard to turn. This locks the diff gear and prevents diff slip. Now run the car 30 seconds holding one wheel stationary. This makes the groove that the balls will ride in. You can easily imagine that cutting this groove with the carbide balls is going to remove any surface treatment you gave the diff rings. So don't bother sanding them.

Final Adjustment
Hold the left tire and spur and rotate that right tire again and make sure the diff is still tight. The diff will not require further adjustment until it gets gritty feeling from wear. It holds up quite a while even on our dusty outdoor track.

When I redo the diff I just wipe it off and reuse the same side of the rings if they are not pitted. Regrease. Turn the rings over if pitted. The carbide balls crush any remaining fine dirt. The diff is very smooth again. Check the thrust bearing, the first one under your nut often. It will get brinneled from crashes (impact pits evenly spaced), and worn from the thrust loads. Spin it on a pencil point before every race. I don't believe an aftermarket thrust bearing is neccesary as our caged radial bearings are designed to carry a side load.

Axle Bearing
The axle bearing closest to the spur takes the worst abuse. I actually replace this one before each race. When it fails you loose forward drive. This is especially important for mod 3.5 use.
Here is a very light left hand hub from KSG. I just cut mine to look the same but it is not near as nice looking. You may require a custom axle spacer to be able to use it though.


Opposing views are always welcome. Boomer if you still have that large diff schematic we could post it again here.
I wonder if you are mixing text from different procedures in the above. On the one hand you mention the thrust code and bellville washers, and then a little later, under "Final Adjustment", you mention the caged thrust bearing. The thrust bearing is mont mentioned in the "Assembly" section. Here is a link to an articvle that describes building a pan car diff with a thrust bearing. These thrust bearings can last for years.

http://www.rc-oval.com/?p=77
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:49 AM   #11
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Things that I write are not really mixed text. It is original writing out of my head. I'll edit the text a little bit to this "Check the outer hub bearing that carries thrust,"

I call it a thrust bearing because that is the primary way that it is used. It is the same 1/4 inch flanged caged radial ball bearing that we use on the axle. My point is that this type of bearing is designed to carry side loads (thrust). A separate thrust bearing is not really needed. (A full compliment radial ball bearing has no cage. Full compliment means as many balls as will fill the race. Because of this it has a cut in the race to insert the balls. It cannot carry much side load.) A caged ball bearing is assembled by moving the center to the side inserting all the balls and then spreading the balls out and putting on a cage. There are gaps or space between the balls occupied by the cage. For this reason the race is not partly cut away and it does just fine carrying a side load.

What neither caged radial or thrust bearings do well is carry an impact load when you hit the boards. This is the primary reason for failure. If you don't hit the boards either one last quite a while.

Now if you read the quoted text you also know my opinion on sanding the rings. This may help if you use steel balls by preventing flat spotting the balls on breakin. No way you are going to flat spot a carbide ball on breakin. I see a set of ceramic diff balls in the latest tower catalog at $8. That is money well spent. The diff will be ultra smooth as a result without sanding. The carbide balls cut a groove. Even if the diff ring is not perfectly flat, the bottom of the groove is perfectly flat after that very brief breakin. If you like to sand the rings I am fine with that as well. Evidence that you would need to sand the rings is a groove that is not the same width all the way around. I never see this.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-21-2008 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:38 AM   #12
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You have a PM and check you links. Some aren't working correctly.

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Old 05-21-2008, 09:59 AM   #13
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Done. All fixed or deleted except the MLP site is down quite a bit.
John
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:47 AM   #14
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oh great - ANOTHER thread I absolutely have to read!
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:58 AM   #15
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I was thinking the same thing.

@ Jason: Didn't you make some diff rings that were almost perfectly flat? if so, do you still make them?
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