Tekin RS ESC sensored
08-07-2008, 12:08 AM
#631
Interesting night with the Tekin. It ran really well for the most part, and I love how smooth it is. I ran a 13.5 in hybrid mode, and didn't have any trouble. I was struggling with how to gear it, though. It was coming off around 165, but felt a little slow. Maybe that's because its power delivery is more linear. My only problems tonight were:
1. No brakes. I mean none at all. What's the setting I need here?
2. Really soft on the bottom. I got rear ended at the start of the main 'cause everybody launched hard, and my car was slow to start. The car was plenty fast, but it didn't have the low end grunt that you normally get from a 13.5. I think I have my profile set to one notch below the highest. My timing is set to the default for a 13.5, which I think is 80?
1. No brakes. I mean none at all. What's the setting I need here?
2. Really soft on the bottom. I got rear ended at the start of the main 'cause everybody launched hard, and my car was slow to start. The car was plenty fast, but it didn't have the low end grunt that you normally get from a 13.5. I think I have my profile set to one notch below the highest. My timing is set to the default for a 13.5, which I think is 80?
08-07-2008, 03:01 AM
#632
Tech Adept
Interesting night with the Tekin. It ran really well for the most part, and I love how smooth it is. I ran a 13.5 in hybrid mode, and didn't have any trouble. I was struggling with how to gear it, though. It was coming off around 165, but felt a little slow. Maybe that's because its power delivery is more linear. My only problems tonight were:
1. No brakes. I mean none at all. What's the setting I need here?
2. Really soft on the bottom. I got rear ended at the start of the main 'cause everybody launched hard, and my car was slow to start. The car was plenty fast, but it didn't have the low end grunt that you normally get from a 13.5. I think I have my profile set to one notch below the highest. My timing is set to the default for a 13.5, which I think is 80?
1. No brakes. I mean none at all. What's the setting I need here?
2. Really soft on the bottom. I got rear ended at the start of the main 'cause everybody launched hard, and my car was slow to start. The car was plenty fast, but it didn't have the low end grunt that you normally get from a 13.5. I think I have my profile set to one notch below the highest. My timing is set to the default for a 13.5, which I think is 80?
ad 2) I know exactly what you mean. I ended up setting the expo on my TX to 40%+ to compensate this.
I think Tekin needs to address both issues, I think this can be handled by a firmware upgrade ( at least the throttle profile)
08-07-2008, 05:07 AM
#633
I have plenty of brake for asphault as long as I turn up the brakes all the way on the speedo. It will go from no brakes to good brakes and even locking up if you keep turning up the brakes. I have the brakes set at 75% on my radio to keep from locking up with the speedo turned all the way up.
For punch there are couple things that you can try. First for me is turning the neutral width down. It's set pretty high by default and takes a bunch of trigger to make it go (with my KO). The other thing that you can change is the punch setting on your radio. They pretty much all have a punch setting of some sort but it's called punch on a KO. Turning the punch setting up tells the speedo to go directly to a higher throttle setting when you start to pull the trigger (10% is 10% on). Punch acts totally different than changing the throttle profiles (or throttle curve on the radio) because it keeps the nice linear feel after you start to accelerate.
A punch setting would be a great thing to add to the hotwire... Even better if you could set it for power and brakes seperately to give these high wind motors more feel. 17.5's are the worst for me.
For punch there are couple things that you can try. First for me is turning the neutral width down. It's set pretty high by default and takes a bunch of trigger to make it go (with my KO). The other thing that you can change is the punch setting on your radio. They pretty much all have a punch setting of some sort but it's called punch on a KO. Turning the punch setting up tells the speedo to go directly to a higher throttle setting when you start to pull the trigger (10% is 10% on). Punch acts totally different than changing the throttle profiles (or throttle curve on the radio) because it keeps the nice linear feel after you start to accelerate.
A punch setting would be a great thing to add to the hotwire... Even better if you could set it for power and brakes seperately to give these high wind motors more feel. 17.5's are the worst for me.
08-07-2008, 06:01 AM
#634
Tech Adept
I have plenty of brake for asphault as long as I turn up the brakes all the way on the speedo. It will go from no brakes to good brakes and even locking up if you keep turning up the brakes. I have the brakes set at 75% on my radio to keep from locking up with the speedo turned all the way up.
For punch there are couple things that you can try. First for me is turning the neutral width down. It's set pretty high by default and takes a bunch of trigger to make it go (with my KO). The other thing that you can change is the punch setting on your radio. They pretty much all have a punch setting of some sort but it's called punch on a KO. Turning the punch setting up tells the speedo to go directly to a higher throttle setting when you start to pull the trigger (10% is 10% on). Punch acts totally different than changing the throttle profiles (or throttle curve on the radio) because it keeps the nice linear feel after you start to accelerate.
A punch setting would be a great thing to add to the hotwire... Even better if you could set it for power and brakes seperately to give these high wind motors more feel. 17.5's are the worst for me.
For punch there are couple things that you can try. First for me is turning the neutral width down. It's set pretty high by default and takes a bunch of trigger to make it go (with my KO). The other thing that you can change is the punch setting on your radio. They pretty much all have a punch setting of some sort but it's called punch on a KO. Turning the punch setting up tells the speedo to go directly to a higher throttle setting when you start to pull the trigger (10% is 10% on). Punch acts totally different than changing the throttle profiles (or throttle curve on the radio) because it keeps the nice linear feel after you start to accelerate.
A punch setting would be a great thing to add to the hotwire... Even better if you could set it for power and brakes seperately to give these high wind motors more feel. 17.5's are the worst for me.
08-07-2008, 07:46 AM
#636
Just a check... I assume you have the capacitor wired to your RS properly dont you?
Yeah i cant stand the default soft brake settings on the esc as i always set brakes on the transmitter. I set the brakes to maximum in the hotwire.
Neutral width ive also knocked down a couple of settings.
It more than likely WONT make any difference but you may want to recalibrate your radio with the esc to make sure there is nothing amiss. Dont forget to set brake and throttle end points to 100% before calibrating the radio.
For the motor temperate i dont think 165 F is not too bad. It is warm but i dont think it is that hot. Non-sintered rotors you should only run to about 140F but these days most of the rotors are sintered. I was of the impression that you could run sintered rotors up to as high as 200 F (get someone to confirm that though i aint been running motors hot, cause i cant handle the power in mod).
But youll also find that the fast guys will run the big motor cooling heat sinks/fans like the LRP one. Eagle racing make one too which is the same if you really want to push the motor you will need one of those, but considering the motor has top end and no low end i guess gearing up is not the issue.
Yeah i cant stand the default soft brake settings on the esc as i always set brakes on the transmitter. I set the brakes to maximum in the hotwire.
Neutral width ive also knocked down a couple of settings.
It more than likely WONT make any difference but you may want to recalibrate your radio with the esc to make sure there is nothing amiss. Dont forget to set brake and throttle end points to 100% before calibrating the radio.
For the motor temperate i dont think 165 F is not too bad. It is warm but i dont think it is that hot. Non-sintered rotors you should only run to about 140F but these days most of the rotors are sintered. I was of the impression that you could run sintered rotors up to as high as 200 F (get someone to confirm that though i aint been running motors hot, cause i cant handle the power in mod).
But youll also find that the fast guys will run the big motor cooling heat sinks/fans like the LRP one. Eagle racing make one too which is the same if you really want to push the motor you will need one of those, but considering the motor has top end and no low end i guess gearing up is not the issue.
08-07-2008, 07:56 AM
#637
To me, neutral width shouldnt effect the turn in on the car. Neutral width is as its name implies. If the car is handling differently to me it would seem that you are holding the throttle instead of the car being in a neutral state or you have the drag brakes set too high/low.
08-07-2008, 08:50 AM
#638
Yeah, I've seen that it acts funny sometimes if you have some creep adjusted into the radio and turn it on.
Neutral width is simply a dead spot in the trigger at neutral. It's normally set fairly high at the factory (regarldess of manufacturer) because they have no control over how good your radio is. A dirty radio will need more of a dead band to keep it from getting jittery at neutral.
For 13.5 sedan outdoors, I have the neutral width all the way down and throttle profile 3 (I like that feel best). Then I adjust the punch setting on my radio to get the punch off the line (%15 at the moment).
Neutral width is simply a dead spot in the trigger at neutral. It's normally set fairly high at the factory (regarldess of manufacturer) because they have no control over how good your radio is. A dirty radio will need more of a dead band to keep it from getting jittery at neutral.
For 13.5 sedan outdoors, I have the neutral width all the way down and throttle profile 3 (I like that feel best). Then I adjust the punch setting on my radio to get the punch off the line (%15 at the moment).
08-07-2008, 08:52 AM
#639
Yep, the cap is just fine from what I can tell.
What I mean about neutral is how much I have to pull the trigger before the car begins to move. I prefer to have it move at the very slightest input, almost as if I have "creep" dialed in, but a click or two down from where it would roll on its own.
As for EPA's, I have them at 120%, the max the radio allow.
I generally aim to get my motors around 165 or so (13.5), so the temp was about where I'd expect it to be. However, I hear this hybrid mode runs a lot cooler, since it disengages the sensors, so I'm wondering if I need to adjust how hot I get things. The motor felt a bit overgeared, but that could have been because the bottom end is so soft. It was fast as anything out there, but lacked the typical 13.5 grunt.
What I mean about neutral is how much I have to pull the trigger before the car begins to move. I prefer to have it move at the very slightest input, almost as if I have "creep" dialed in, but a click or two down from where it would roll on its own.
As for EPA's, I have them at 120%, the max the radio allow.
I generally aim to get my motors around 165 or so (13.5), so the temp was about where I'd expect it to be. However, I hear this hybrid mode runs a lot cooler, since it disengages the sensors, so I'm wondering if I need to adjust how hot I get things. The motor felt a bit overgeared, but that could have been because the bottom end is so soft. It was fast as anything out there, but lacked the typical 13.5 grunt.
08-07-2008, 08:54 AM
#640
There's actually a note in the manual saying the ESC won't let you control the throttle if there's too much input when you turn it on. This screws with my normal routine of adjusting trim so the car is about to creep. So, neutral width lets you adjust this?
08-07-2008, 09:46 AM
#641
syndr0me,
Despite it messing with your routine, you don't need to use creep with this speed control. The stock drag brake setting is pretty low, so you won't have to worry about it. In brushed motor mode you can use what's called push control to simulate creep but in a really different (and cool) manner.
I have my neutral width to 10% and it seems to be great.
My settings right now:
Throttle Profile 3 (Linear)
Timing 30%
Drag Brake 30%
Neutral Width 10%
Current Limiter Off (highest up)
This is for 4.0 Modified, 6 cell. For 13.5 I'd turn the timing up to 80% to start (0 timing on the motor) and take the Drag Brake down to about 20%.
In hybrid mode, the speed control is in sensored only at very low speeds and at start-up and the timing is the timing of the motor only. When it switches to sensorless it uses the timing in the speed control. This is why I try to use low timing on the motor to give torque down low and time and gear appropriately to get the top-end.
Despite it messing with your routine, you don't need to use creep with this speed control. The stock drag brake setting is pretty low, so you won't have to worry about it. In brushed motor mode you can use what's called push control to simulate creep but in a really different (and cool) manner.
I have my neutral width to 10% and it seems to be great.
My settings right now:
Throttle Profile 3 (Linear)
Timing 30%
Drag Brake 30%
Neutral Width 10%
Current Limiter Off (highest up)
This is for 4.0 Modified, 6 cell. For 13.5 I'd turn the timing up to 80% to start (0 timing on the motor) and take the Drag Brake down to about 20%.
In hybrid mode, the speed control is in sensored only at very low speeds and at start-up and the timing is the timing of the motor only. When it switches to sensorless it uses the timing in the speed control. This is why I try to use low timing on the motor to give torque down low and time and gear appropriately to get the top-end.
08-07-2008, 10:03 AM
#642
Yup, neutral width lets you adjust out that dead spot around neutral. Personally I hate the feel that a big dead spot at neutral has. It's a lot harder for me to use the brakes if there's a huge 10% dead spot in the travel.
The motor will run cooler if you're using a low timing setting. Once you crank up the timing it's going to run hot. Timing = heat with pretty much any brushless set-up out there. I normally start low on timing and only turn it up if I need the car to rev out more on the straight.
Timing can change your gear by 3-4 teeth in 64 pitch.
The motor will run cooler if you're using a low timing setting. Once you crank up the timing it's going to run hot. Timing = heat with pretty much any brushless set-up out there. I normally start low on timing and only turn it up if I need the car to rev out more on the straight.
Timing can change your gear by 3-4 teeth in 64 pitch.
08-07-2008, 10:45 AM
#643
Brian,
I don't really use creep, I just don't like the dead spot in the throttle around neutral, like Fred mentioned. I'm not even sure creep works with a one-way, does it?
In hybrid mode, you can see the sensors disengage by looking at the LED's, right? I can see they stop pulsing around 30% throttle. The little checkbox thing in the software is kind of hard to understand. I'd tweak the UI there if I were developing it.
The timing thing is still a little perplexing. I'm running 80% in the ESC, but the motor (Novak) isn't really easily adjusted. In Vegas, we're running Orion 17.5's which can be adjusted on the motor. It's a little unclear when it's better to adjust one over the other.
I don't really use creep, I just don't like the dead spot in the throttle around neutral, like Fred mentioned. I'm not even sure creep works with a one-way, does it?
In hybrid mode, you can see the sensors disengage by looking at the LED's, right? I can see they stop pulsing around 30% throttle. The little checkbox thing in the software is kind of hard to understand. I'd tweak the UI there if I were developing it.
The timing thing is still a little perplexing. I'm running 80% in the ESC, but the motor (Novak) isn't really easily adjusted. In Vegas, we're running Orion 17.5's which can be adjusted on the motor. It's a little unclear when it's better to adjust one over the other.
08-07-2008, 11:38 AM
#644
The timing thing is a little hard to understand at first (and overrated as far as I'm concerned).
In sensored only mode, the speed control runs off of the sensors with a set advance (time not angle). In a nutshell, this means that the motor loses timing as it revs up. I think I have that right for the Tekin.
In sensorless mode (after start-up on the sensors) the speedo tracks the rotor position and sets the timing advance with the speed control. The timing is the same regardless of RPM.
With a motor like the Orion that can dial in an insane amount of physical timing it may make sense to run sensored only. I'm going to play with an Orion 13.5 this weekend so I'll let you know what I find out.
In sensored only mode, the speed control runs off of the sensors with a set advance (time not angle). In a nutshell, this means that the motor loses timing as it revs up. I think I have that right for the Tekin.
In sensorless mode (after start-up on the sensors) the speedo tracks the rotor position and sets the timing advance with the speed control. The timing is the same regardless of RPM.
With a motor like the Orion that can dial in an insane amount of physical timing it may make sense to run sensored only. I'm going to play with an Orion 13.5 this weekend so I'll let you know what I find out.
08-07-2008, 11:48 AM
#645
Quick (hopefully simple) question -- is there any advantage to getting an "RS motor/ESC combo) vs. buying the motor and ESC separately? Extra stuff in with the combo?
If not, I'll get the ESC now (have an opportunity to save some $) and the 13.5 motor when I can.
TIA
If not, I'll get the ESC now (have an opportunity to save some $) and the 13.5 motor when I can.
TIA