Difference b/tween ESC timing and timing on motor?
04-10-2008, 02:38 PM
#1
Difference b/tween ESC timing and timing on motor?
Hi guys,
Trying to know has as much as I can about these new BL motors...My SP GT ESC allows me to change the timing: like from 3° to 27° and IT DOES seem to effect the motor especially the Feiago made ones: SP/ORion/Trinity/GM/Checkpoint/CS...
But whats the difference when you change the timing (phisically) on the motor like our good old brushed motors?
Can you find a compromise with both?
Also anyone know how to tune these motors with different size rotors and do yo know what they actually do???
Thanks a lot!!
Trying to know has as much as I can about these new BL motors...My SP GT ESC allows me to change the timing: like from 3° to 27° and IT DOES seem to effect the motor especially the Feiago made ones: SP/ORion/Trinity/GM/Checkpoint/CS...
But whats the difference when you change the timing (phisically) on the motor like our good old brushed motors?
Can you find a compromise with both?
Also anyone know how to tune these motors with different size rotors and do yo know what they actually do???
Thanks a lot!!
04-10-2008, 02:49 PM
#2
An ESC with electronic timing advance will have the motor running cooler and faster than advancing the motor timing. I have found with LRP, you can add advance (higher profile #), and still run the larger pinions. In fact, at times, retarding the motor and going up in pinion size can be faster. Timing the motor up generally just makes it hotter.
With a Novak ESC, which has no electronic advance (AFAIK), you have to run some motor advance.
This is generally what I have found, but I'm am sure there is a lot more to be learned..
With a Novak ESC, which has no electronic advance (AFAIK), you have to run some motor advance.
This is generally what I have found, but I'm am sure there is a lot more to be learned..
04-10-2008, 04:54 PM
#3
Tech Regular
Timing has been done through the esc for many years with airplanes as well as other applications.
As robk said the temperature will rise slightly with higher timing in the motor.
Generally you will see that most motors run higher rpm with timing advance and lower torque. From what I have seen from the Hacker motors timing wont really give you more power but changes the power band of the motor.
As robk said the temperature will rise slightly with higher timing in the motor.
Generally you will see that most motors run higher rpm with timing advance and lower torque. From what I have seen from the Hacker motors timing wont really give you more power but changes the power band of the motor.
04-11-2008, 02:57 AM
#4
timing with brushless is a little different than how it was with brushed motors
more timing = more power ... was right but now is not anymore
it does not get faster, just louder due to higher rpm ... thats all
you'll loose much efficiency and torque.
as far as esc timing vs. motor timing ... there is no real difference
just make sure you do not overtime the motor
this is why gm recommends to change the timing on our motors (which also applies on all other feigao motors) from "mark-b on solderpoint b" to "mark-b on solderpoint c" if a lrp esc is used.
more than 30° is not really necessary. be careful, if you use sensors, you will have approx. 30° provided by the feigao motors due to sensor positon, which you have to add TO the esc timing if the esc timing applies with sensors connected.
more timing = more power ... was right but now is not anymore
it does not get faster, just louder due to higher rpm ... thats all
you'll loose much efficiency and torque.
as far as esc timing vs. motor timing ... there is no real difference
just make sure you do not overtime the motor
this is why gm recommends to change the timing on our motors (which also applies on all other feigao motors) from "mark-b on solderpoint b" to "mark-b on solderpoint c" if a lrp esc is used.
more than 30° is not really necessary. be careful, if you use sensors, you will have approx. 30° provided by the feigao motors due to sensor positon, which you have to add TO the esc timing if the esc timing applies with sensors connected.
04-11-2008, 05:18 AM
#5
The Speed Passion peeps can correct me if I'm wrong on this...
Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.
On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.
I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.
On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.
I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
04-11-2008, 06:29 AM
#6
Tech Initiate
very more complex
when you change timming on brush motor the third contact on rotor is floating and if the volt on this point up you have any change on esc and motor only up RPM and power
but for brushless all the wire is in the esc not floating with diode flyback
if you up the timming the third floting cable up in voltage and the current flo in flyback diode and incrase heat to motor and esc same for sensorless and sensored normaly best ways for 2 pole motor is real sinus drive but very high cost and only dispo in industrial market 208V - 600V
little differency for outrunner motor in this motor you have space between magnet the signal of this motor is more same than square wave step motor this type of motor is more appropriate for high timming and actual esc for RC
best timming is zero (1 degre) for best power and torque
Industrial tech electric from Quebec city
Dominic
when you change timming on brush motor the third contact on rotor is floating and if the volt on this point up you have any change on esc and motor only up RPM and power
but for brushless all the wire is in the esc not floating with diode flyback
if you up the timming the third floting cable up in voltage and the current flo in flyback diode and incrase heat to motor and esc same for sensorless and sensored normaly best ways for 2 pole motor is real sinus drive but very high cost and only dispo in industrial market 208V - 600V
little differency for outrunner motor in this motor you have space between magnet the signal of this motor is more same than square wave step motor this type of motor is more appropriate for high timming and actual esc for RC
best timming is zero (1 degre) for best power and torque
Industrial tech electric from Quebec city
Dominic
04-11-2008, 12:51 PM
#7
I believe the timing esc's frequency has to do with th motor's rpm. for example, a max out motor has 36,000 rpm, divided by 60 sec/min which is 600hz(0.6khz). the motor has 3 poles, so each rpm sparks the rotor 3 times. the most efficient drive frequency is 0.6khz x 3 = 1.8khz for a given 36000rpm. then we would like to advance it, let say we would like to give it 2 sparks per ignite to enlong ignition timing. the drive frequency should be at 3.6khz for 2 sparks, 5.4khz for 3 sparks, 7.2khz for 4 sparks and so on... to the given boost at 36000rpm.
the newer esc has the variable frequency drive, which means it can out put a non fixed frequency at different voltage/rpm range. which gives the driver's a tweak on entire power band without sacrificing efficiencies. I think that's why the bushed setup is still so popular in today’s pro level racing.
the newer esc has the variable frequency drive, which means it can out put a non fixed frequency at different voltage/rpm range. which gives the driver's a tweak on entire power band without sacrificing efficiencies. I think that's why the bushed setup is still so popular in today’s pro level racing.
04-11-2008, 01:06 PM
#8
The Speed Passion peeps can correct me if I'm wrong on this...
Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.
On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.
I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.
On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.
I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
04-11-2008, 04:45 PM
#9
Tech Initiate
the frequency was not realy generated by the esc
the brushless motor is an synchronous motor
the frquency was fixed by the motor and the esc need to follow it very close or the motor take down and the esc burn instantaneous
the real timming natural of any sensorless esc is 30 degree the software need to calcul or predict time between it change phase (6 phase)
if this calcul have a little error apear cogging
same with sensored the sensor tell at the esc where is the magnet
but at high rpm the sensor not respond same than at low rpm and you reach limit of speed of the electric sensor (the reason why an 4.5t turn very hot)
the brushless motor is an synchronous motor
the frquency was fixed by the motor and the esc need to follow it very close or the motor take down and the esc burn instantaneous
the real timming natural of any sensorless esc is 30 degree the software need to calcul or predict time between it change phase (6 phase)
if this calcul have a little error apear cogging
same with sensored the sensor tell at the esc where is the magnet
but at high rpm the sensor not respond same than at low rpm and you reach limit of speed of the electric sensor (the reason why an 4.5t turn very hot)
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