R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-10-2008, 03:38 PM   #1
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 70
Default Difference b/tween ESC timing and timing on motor?

Hi guys,

Trying to know has as much as I can about these new BL motors...My SP GT ESC allows me to change the timing: like from 3° to 27° and IT DOES seem to effect the motor especially the Feiago made ones: SP/ORion/Trinity/GM/Checkpoint/CS...

But whats the difference when you change the timing (phisically) on the motor like our good old brushed motors?

Can you find a compromise with both?

Also anyone know how to tune these motors with different size rotors and do yo know what they actually do???

Thanks a lot!!
__________________
Associated TC4 FTB44 FTT4
Kyosho Lazer ZX5 "hop uped"
Novak GTB 5.5r & GTX
Kyosho MP777 RB S7
Kyosho Mad Force (needs work) and Minium cessna
Jammin CRT.5 SH .12 turbo engine
Traxxas S-Maxx
Yokomo World SD replica (500 items only)
Schumacher Rascal (needs new tank)
Losi Micro-t
CEN Nemesis (needs radio)
....perhaps a little addicted??
Loverc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2008, 03:49 PM   #2
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,587
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

An ESC with electronic timing advance will have the motor running cooler and faster than advancing the motor timing. I have found with LRP, you can add advance (higher profile #), and still run the larger pinions. In fact, at times, retarding the motor and going up in pinion size can be faster. Timing the motor up generally just makes it hotter.

With a Novak ESC, which has no electronic advance (AFAIK), you have to run some motor advance.

This is generally what I have found, but I'm am sure there is a lot more to be learned..
__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2008, 05:54 PM   #3
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 466
Send a message via AIM to kyle478
Default

Timing has been done through the esc for many years with airplanes as well as other applications.

As robk said the temperature will rise slightly with higher timing in the motor.

Generally you will see that most motors run higher rpm with timing advance and lower torque. From what I have seen from the Hacker motors timing wont really give you more power but changes the power band of the motor.
__________________
Hacker Brushless USA www.hackerbrushless.com
Aero-Model www.aero-model.com
kyle478 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 03:57 AM   #4
Tech Master
 
Martin Hofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,083
Send a message via ICQ to Martin Hofer
Default

timing with brushless is a little different than how it was with brushed motors

more timing = more power ... was right but now is not anymore

it does not get faster, just louder due to higher rpm ... thats all

you'll loose much efficiency and torque.

as far as esc timing vs. motor timing ... there is no real difference

just make sure you do not overtime the motor

this is why gm recommends to change the timing on our motors (which also applies on all other feigao motors) from "mark-b on solderpoint b" to "mark-b on solderpoint c" if a lrp esc is used.

more than 30° is not really necessary. be careful, if you use sensors, you will have approx. 30° provided by the feigao motors due to sensor positon, which you have to add TO the esc timing if the esc timing applies with sensors connected.
__________________
Schumacher Racing
Team GM-Racing
Team Sorex
Xenon Racing
Tonisport
Martin Hofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 06:18 AM   #5
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 649
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

The Speed Passion peeps can correct me if I'm wrong on this...

Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.

On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.

I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
Fred_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 07:29 AM   #6
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada Quebec City
Posts: 41
Default

very more complex

when you change timming on brush motor the third contact on rotor is floating and if the volt on this point up you have any change on esc and motor only up RPM and power

but for brushless all the wire is in the esc not floating with diode flyback

if you up the timming the third floting cable up in voltage and the current flo in flyback diode and incrase heat to motor and esc same for sensorless and sensored normaly best ways for 2 pole motor is real sinus drive but very high cost and only dispo in industrial market 208V - 600V

little differency for outrunner motor in this motor you have space between magnet the signal of this motor is more same than square wave step motor this type of motor is more appropriate for high timming and actual esc for RC

best timming is zero (1 degre) for best power and torque


Industrial tech electric from Quebec city
Dominic
__________________
xxx4 g+
Team Yuntong
duratrax 8t pro
spectrum dx2.0
dgaumond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 01:51 PM   #7
Tech Adept
 
zenithrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: sunny california, walnut
Posts: 150
Default

I believe the timing esc's frequency has to do with th motor's rpm. for example, a max out motor has 36,000 rpm, divided by 60 sec/min which is 600hz(0.6khz). the motor has 3 poles, so each rpm sparks the rotor 3 times. the most efficient drive frequency is 0.6khz x 3 = 1.8khz for a given 36000rpm. then we would like to advance it, let say we would like to give it 2 sparks per ignite to enlong ignition timing. the drive frequency should be at 3.6khz for 2 sparks, 5.4khz for 3 sparks, 7.2khz for 4 sparks and so on... to the given boost at 36000rpm.

the newer esc has the variable frequency drive, which means it can out put a non fixed frequency at different voltage/rpm range. which gives the driver's a tweak on entire power band without sacrificing efficiencies. I think that's why the bushed setup is still so popular in today’s pro level racing.
__________________
TA05MS, F201, F103GT, RS4 Mini, TopForce (original), Mini Inferno, **Tamiya BMT 931 K4** "I am a new soul, welcome to the new world, so proud to joint the TEAM MORON. lalalala" We love Onions products, so touching. COL - cry out loud
zenithrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 02:06 PM   #8
Tech Adept
 
zenithrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: sunny california, walnut
Posts: 150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
The Speed Passion peeps can correct me if I'm wrong on this...

Some of the newer speed controls only use the sensors in the motor for startup and at very low speed. I think Speed Passion and some time in the next 10 years Tekin's RS will run like this.

On startup, you have the motor timing plus the speed control timing. Once the motor's running you have only the speed control timing. I've found that if you run high timing on the SP speedo AND the motor it kills the bottom end and just gets hot (or coggs a little at low speed). The motor timing doesn't seem to change the top end at all.

I turned the timing down completely on the motor (Novak) when I was running the SP speed control in 12th. Timing level 4 was the most power on the dyno with a 13.5 Novak and the Speed Passion GT for 4 cell.
as you can see the most power and efficient can only be output at the esc and motor synchronized point.
__________________
TA05MS, F201, F103GT, RS4 Mini, TopForce (original), Mini Inferno, **Tamiya BMT 931 K4** "I am a new soul, welcome to the new world, so proud to joint the TEAM MORON. lalalala" We love Onions products, so touching. COL - cry out loud
zenithrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2008, 05:45 PM   #9
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada Quebec City
Posts: 41
Default

the frequency was not realy generated by the esc

the brushless motor is an synchronous motor

the frquency was fixed by the motor and the esc need to follow it very close or the motor take down and the esc burn instantaneous

the real timming natural of any sensorless esc is 30 degree the software need to calcul or predict time between it change phase (6 phase)

if this calcul have a little error apear cogging

same with sensored the sensor tell at the esc where is the magnet
but at high rpm the sensor not respond same than at low rpm and you reach limit of speed of the electric sensor (the reason why an 4.5t turn very hot)
__________________
xxx4 g+
Team Yuntong
duratrax 8t pro
spectrum dx2.0
dgaumond is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Motor timing help. wade7575 Electric Off-Road 1 02-21-2008 03:23 PM
Motor Timing RocketRacer Electric On-Road 6 06-22-2006 01:11 AM
Mod motor timing. jbrow1 Electric On-Road 6 08-30-2005 07:02 PM
what is motor timing?? davioh Electric On-Road 1 05-05-2003 03:31 AM
Motor Timing Shadow_Rusty Electric On-Road 2 12-21-2002 05:50 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 07:26 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net