ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-11-2008, 10:37 AM
#781
There are a lot of small track carpet guys posting here. This is normal as they are the most vocal....but please keep in mind that MOST ROAR members live and race in CA, FL, TX and other states where we run outdoors most of the year.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
--17.5/27t non-sponsored Sportsman at all tracks.
--13.5/23t Expert at tracks with a maximum straight of 100' or less.
--10.5/19t Expert at tracks with a straight greater than 100'.
--Factory Unlimited whatever ya got, wherever you're at, burn it up.
Between the two middle classes, the only difference will be the cans. The same speedo and rotors will work for both, and if we're all going to start collecting rotors anyway, we won't be out much by just swapping between cans depending on the track.
Rising to the top of a big field, or just fighting it out in the trenches, is much more meaningful than placing in a small group. 32nd at ROAR nats in a hundred car field is awesome. 5th out of 11 is nothing to shout about.
01-11-2008, 10:38 AM
#782
Adrian,
Perhaps on a bigger, outdoor track the 10.5 feels more like a 19t. Running it on a carpet track is like running a 10 turn brushed modified motor, it really is. I'm sure we'll all eventually come to an agreement over classes, but for the moment, you still can't forget the people that run indoors, as well. Most of the new people starting around here can't handle the power of a 13.5 motor very well, even if they can drive good lines. It used to be that just a few years ago, anyone could handle stock.
Ike,
You are completely right that almost the entire difference between 10.5 and mod was on the straight. There was only one section of the infield that mod was just slightly faster.
Again, I was simply expressing my opinions after being at the race and seeing what goes on locally where brushless has truly taken over.
Perhaps on a bigger, outdoor track the 10.5 feels more like a 19t. Running it on a carpet track is like running a 10 turn brushed modified motor, it really is. I'm sure we'll all eventually come to an agreement over classes, but for the moment, you still can't forget the people that run indoors, as well. Most of the new people starting around here can't handle the power of a 13.5 motor very well, even if they can drive good lines. It used to be that just a few years ago, anyone could handle stock.
Ike,
You are completely right that almost the entire difference between 10.5 and mod was on the straight. There was only one section of the infield that mod was just slightly faster.
Again, I was simply expressing my opinions after being at the race and seeing what goes on locally where brushless has truly taken over.
01-11-2008, 11:09 AM
#783
FDR was at 4.44 (100 spur, 45 pinion, internal ratio 2.0) doesnt have a lot of snap, but lap times dont lie
came off the track at about 135 degrees. That was my starting point, and went up and down no more than 1 tooth depending on the layout (usually down, we have fairly tight layouts)
came off the track at about 135 degrees. That was my starting point, and went up and down no more than 1 tooth depending on the layout (usually down, we have fairly tight layouts)
01-11-2008, 11:16 AM
#784
The good news is...... Roar should be making its decision in the next couple of days.
This was posted on 1/2/08.
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez
Excom meets in about 10 days to finalize the 2008 rule book. (late start, sorry.. just got the job 2 weeks ago )
01-11-2008, 01:00 PM
#785
BL is not saving the hobby. Come to a JBRL event were you willhave 200 entries for a single day race and the largest classes are BRUSHED STOCK and 19T. BL has all it's own problems. As people get competative in racing them it will be come VERY clear that the "motor tuning and tweaking" problems will not go away. Once you figure it all out there is very little "Black magic" in a stock motor. More of it comes down to maintaince. Just like cleaning the car and rebuilding the diff and shocks this is something that is part of racing. With BL you main not need to do maintaince but what a year or two and soon you will find out everyone needs a lap top computer to adjust there speedo for the track layout to get the most out of the BL motor for a given track. This is coming.
There are no solutions to this. As long as racers are racers they will always search for ways to go faster. This is the nature of the game. This is the same form all racing in everything. People are always looking for an advantage. Look at NASCAR, Cycling, horse racing, Track etc. Everyone is always looking for that edge.
To that note I know BL is her and it is not going anywhere but believe Brushed motors are the only controlable "spec" motors. That is just my opinon though and ROAR will determine a set of rules for us all to play by. Weather or not we choose to do it is up the the tracks and the racers for local "club" racing.
There are no solutions to this. As long as racers are racers they will always search for ways to go faster. This is the nature of the game. This is the same form all racing in everything. People are always looking for an advantage. Look at NASCAR, Cycling, horse racing, Track etc. Everyone is always looking for that edge.
To that note I know BL is her and it is not going anywhere but believe Brushed motors are the only controlable "spec" motors. That is just my opinon though and ROAR will determine a set of rules for us all to play by. Weather or not we choose to do it is up the the tracks and the racers for local "club" racing.
01-11-2008, 01:23 PM
#786
BL is not saving the hobby. Come to a JBRL event were you willhave 200 entries for a single day race and the largest classes are BRUSHED STOCK and 19T. BL has all it's own problems. As people get competative in racing them it will be come VERY clear that the "motor tuning and tweaking" problems will not go away. Once you figure it all out there is very little "Black magic" in a stock motor. More of it comes down to maintaince. Just like cleaning the car and rebuilding the diff and shocks this is something that is part of racing. With BL you main not need to do maintaince but what a year or two and soon you will find out everyone needs a lap top computer to adjust there speedo for the track layout to get the most out of the BL motor for a given track. This is coming.
There are no solutions to this. As long as racers are racers they will always search for ways to go faster. This is the nature of the game. This is the same form all racing in everything. People are always looking for an advantage. Look at NASCAR, Cycling, horse racing, Track etc. Everyone is always looking for that edge.
To that note I know BL is her and it is not going anywhere but believe Brushed motors are the only controlable "spec" motors. That is just my opinon though and ROAR will determine a set of rules for us all to play by. Weather or not we choose to do it is up the the tracks and the racers for local "club" racing.
There are no solutions to this. As long as racers are racers they will always search for ways to go faster. This is the nature of the game. This is the same form all racing in everything. People are always looking for an advantage. Look at NASCAR, Cycling, horse racing, Track etc. Everyone is always looking for that edge.
To that note I know BL is her and it is not going anywhere but believe Brushed motors are the only controlable "spec" motors. That is just my opinon though and ROAR will determine a set of rules for us all to play by. Weather or not we choose to do it is up the the tracks and the racers for local "club" racing.
01-11-2008, 01:36 PM
#787
ROAR, for the love of Mankind...
27t stock is to fast for 80% of the people that drive it. If it was any kind of equalizer NOBODY would ever finish more than 5 seconds apart. If it was easy to drive, every club race, everywhere, would have all it's drivers finish 5 feet apart, every time.
Whatever happens, the first and most entry level class needs to be SUBSTANTIALLY slower than what we have now.
As technology comes around and competition improves the breed, the slowest motor, in all eventuality, over the next 2-3 years will be 20-40% faster again. So to simply swap technologies without slowing our slowest class is not a good plan.
And even though I feel it's still to fast, I'm in for 21.5 as a motor chosen for the slowest class. Or silver can.
Sure there are big tracks as Adrian mentioned. But all the major carpet road events, Cleveland, Birds, Vegas, etc. are basically stuff with a max dimension around 48x100. And most clubs are on stuff smaller than that.
That said, I have no opinion on a 21.5 in offroad or oval, but heard they are fine in oval, from a poster here that is part of a series. Most offroad has become 1/8 scale supercross, no entry level electric car is going to feel right on those. Track is non designed for them (at least not any more).
If I had to pick only 3 on-road classes (based on brushless). I'd go with this. (and it's a compromise, no matter how you slice it).
21.5
13.5
OPEN
Remember, everything will be MUCH faster in the next year or two. We are only at the beginning...
27t stock is to fast for 80% of the people that drive it. If it was any kind of equalizer NOBODY would ever finish more than 5 seconds apart. If it was easy to drive, every club race, everywhere, would have all it's drivers finish 5 feet apart, every time.
Whatever happens, the first and most entry level class needs to be SUBSTANTIALLY slower than what we have now.
As technology comes around and competition improves the breed, the slowest motor, in all eventuality, over the next 2-3 years will be 20-40% faster again. So to simply swap technologies without slowing our slowest class is not a good plan.
And even though I feel it's still to fast, I'm in for 21.5 as a motor chosen for the slowest class. Or silver can.
Sure there are big tracks as Adrian mentioned. But all the major carpet road events, Cleveland, Birds, Vegas, etc. are basically stuff with a max dimension around 48x100. And most clubs are on stuff smaller than that.
That said, I have no opinion on a 21.5 in offroad or oval, but heard they are fine in oval, from a poster here that is part of a series. Most offroad has become 1/8 scale supercross, no entry level electric car is going to feel right on those. Track is non designed for them (at least not any more).
If I had to pick only 3 on-road classes (based on brushless). I'd go with this. (and it's a compromise, no matter how you slice it).
21.5
13.5
OPEN
Remember, everything will be MUCH faster in the next year or two. We are only at the beginning...
01-11-2008, 01:41 PM
#788
Just my humble opinion, and my observations but people get in the hobby to drive fast. That said, I would like to keep 13.5 for stock BL, however I am like AdrianM, and I drive in SoCal on bigger tracks.
I do however come from nitro onroad where there are strict rules, but not based on seperate engine classes minus outlaw. Then I moved to 1/8th buggy where I have fun putting the best of the best in my vehicle, and do not want to go slower, except for the purpose of remaining consistent.
The classes in nitro are based on skill level, not engine speed, which is what I do like. Usually I race in the Intermediate class if enough racers show to separate them out that way.
I do however come from nitro onroad where there are strict rules, but not based on seperate engine classes minus outlaw. Then I moved to 1/8th buggy where I have fun putting the best of the best in my vehicle, and do not want to go slower, except for the purpose of remaining consistent.
The classes in nitro are based on skill level, not engine speed, which is what I do like. Usually I race in the Intermediate class if enough racers show to separate them out that way.
01-11-2008, 02:11 PM
#789
whole different avenue, and can of worms.
for brushed ideas, rather than say, use this, use that. wrap around this.
3) 35-40 watts
2) 75-80 watts
1) open
Whatever we have that fits these areas. I've found these to be good separations of speed and feel. As an example there are a lot of drivers that feel no need to go to mod as they've been noticing there 19 turn times are right at, or in some cases slower than their stock times. We (as an average) can't drive what we have now.
We can't change the average driver ability, but we can more accurately work with it.
3) 35-40 watts
2) 75-80 watts
1) open
Whatever we have that fits these areas. I've found these to be good separations of speed and feel. As an example there are a lot of drivers that feel no need to go to mod as they've been noticing there 19 turn times are right at, or in some cases slower than their stock times. We (as an average) can't drive what we have now.
We can't change the average driver ability, but we can more accurately work with it.
01-11-2008, 02:38 PM
#790
That maybe true, but that class (GT2) was way small as it is with GT split up. Not trying to take anything away from you and Ben.
I myself like the 13.5 and don't feel the need for a 10.5 or feel the need to slow down with a 17.5. I used to scoff at a 13.5 at our track because I felt it was an unfair advantage against 27t bushing motors, which is why I liked19t, but after running an Lrp 13.5. I for one have changed my mind.
Let 13.5 be the new stock. If people can't handle that and think it's too fast than I don't know..it's all about practice and throttle control anyway....the latter to a point.
Last edited by Dasupacat1; 01-11-2008 at 02:49 PM.
01-11-2008, 02:38 PM
#791
There are a lot of small track carpet guys posting here. This is normal as they are the most vocal....but please keep in mind that MOST ROAR members live and race in CA, FL, TX and other states where we run outdoors most of the year.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
A high percentage of carpet tracks are commercial facilities not requiring ROAR membership. There are a ton of racers in OH MI IL WI etc.
This skews membership somewhat. It's also why the carpet guys are more vocal, since everybody else is posting in nitro and offroad forums...
Maybe we should adopt 4 classes 175.-13.5-10.5-Mod, and let the chips fall where they may for a year or two years. Or make 17.4/13.5 one choice for a race, and 13.5/10.5 another.
01-11-2008, 02:42 PM
#792
My preference is for 10.5 in the middle class as my (admittedly limited) experience with it says to me it's closest to 19T (my favoritist class) but I can DEFINITELY live with 13.5 if ROAR does the right thing and institutes 21.5 for the new stock replacement. If you're on a MONSTER track chances are the existing stock formula was a waste of time. Do 13.5 and Mod.
01-11-2008, 02:50 PM
#793
I agree with Rob, maybe variable motor options depending on the track/style of racing are what we have to do. Events will just have to pick what speed motor they want to use ahead of time and let everybody know. Make sure a ton of those motors are available for sale at the race, or even for lease or something. Clubs can pick motors based on what's right for them. It seems pretty clear one spec motor isn't right in every situation. Three classes is plenty, just make sure people know the motor for that class will depend on the track/event.
Stock (21.5/17.5)
Spec Mod (13.5/10.5)
Mod (open)
Stock (21.5/17.5)
Spec Mod (13.5/10.5)
Mod (open)
01-11-2008, 03:05 PM
#794
When we race rubber with a spec tire, we don't call it the CS27 class. We know what the spec tire is ahead of time, and go there to race "rubber." Maybe the same mentality can work with motors. Like, "I'm going to IIC to race stock rubber. It's going to be 17.5 motors and Jaco Greens."
01-11-2008, 03:21 PM
#795
Tech Adept
This is absolutely amazing! This thread has stayed extremely civil, and there have been a ton of different opinions given here. Thanks to everybody here for showing that sensitive issues CAN be discussed on the internet!
I posted earlier in the thread, probably 20 pages ago, and since then we've seen a lot of new discussions, so I figured I'd chime in again based on some of these comments.
As ROAR starts down the path of the brushless road, it is the perfect time to make the big break. There is no way we will ever achieve parity between a brushed and brushless motor in any limited class, so to include brushed in the rules will do nothing but cause arguments. Even if the overall power is the same, the power delivery will make either the brushed or brushless definitively superior to the other depending on the track and it's conditions. This is not the power parity that these classes are intended to create.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Stormer that we need to dramatically slow down the "Stock" or Introductory class and ensure that there is a distinct difference in the 'feel' of the power between the classes. I also feel that we need to have no more than three 'motor' classes. Our hobby was at it's strongest when we had just two, so going too far beyond that is not the path to growth in the hobby.
As for WHAT the motors should be... Maybe they don't exist yet. We've all been talking about the 13.5, 17.5, 21.5 and 10.5 because that is what they are making now. This doesn't mean we have to stick with them. The best Introductory motor might be a 16.5, or a 18.5, or a 19.5... and the Intermediate motor might need to end up somewhere between the 13.5 and the 10.5.
If you want to keep running your brushed motors, talk to your local track owner and see what they will do. Run whatever you want locally, but the nationally recognized classes need to go brushless.
I posted earlier in the thread, probably 20 pages ago, and since then we've seen a lot of new discussions, so I figured I'd chime in again based on some of these comments.
As ROAR starts down the path of the brushless road, it is the perfect time to make the big break. There is no way we will ever achieve parity between a brushed and brushless motor in any limited class, so to include brushed in the rules will do nothing but cause arguments. Even if the overall power is the same, the power delivery will make either the brushed or brushless definitively superior to the other depending on the track and it's conditions. This is not the power parity that these classes are intended to create.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Stormer that we need to dramatically slow down the "Stock" or Introductory class and ensure that there is a distinct difference in the 'feel' of the power between the classes. I also feel that we need to have no more than three 'motor' classes. Our hobby was at it's strongest when we had just two, so going too far beyond that is not the path to growth in the hobby.
As for WHAT the motors should be... Maybe they don't exist yet. We've all been talking about the 13.5, 17.5, 21.5 and 10.5 because that is what they are making now. This doesn't mean we have to stick with them. The best Introductory motor might be a 16.5, or a 18.5, or a 19.5... and the Intermediate motor might need to end up somewhere between the 13.5 and the 10.5.
If you want to keep running your brushed motors, talk to your local track owner and see what they will do. Run whatever you want locally, but the nationally recognized classes need to go brushless.