ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-11-2008, 03:30 PM
#796
Roar should just ask the manufacturers what they plan on putting in future brushless powered RTR's and make that the stock class motor. The RTR's being race ready/legal out of the box would benefit Roar, racing, and the hobby.
A manufacturer's RTR kit would be sold across the country with just one motor in it. That motor should be legal for stock racing across the country. If a RTR is going to come with a different motor than a 13.5 for instance, then the customer is supposed to go buy a new $90 brushless motor for his brand new kit to race in stock class?
A manufacturer's RTR kit would be sold across the country with just one motor in it. That motor should be legal for stock racing across the country. If a RTR is going to come with a different motor than a 13.5 for instance, then the customer is supposed to go buy a new $90 brushless motor for his brand new kit to race in stock class?
01-11-2008, 03:35 PM
#797
If we really want to "save" the hobby and get new people interested, brushless, nor LIPO, nor slowing speeds down are going to do it. Sure, maybe they'll help a little but they're not the answer to grow the hobby at any decent rate.
What it comes down to is money... The initial investment to start racing is just too great. Lets say someone walks into a hobby shop and says they want a racing setup that is competitive. Lets add it up...
Car 250-500
Radio 170-500
Charger 130-400
Discharger/Tray 40-200
Batteries 150-300
Power Supply 60-150
Brushless System 170-250
Tires/body/tools 100-200
You could also throw another $200 in there for PT's and toolboxes.
So, cutting corners on new stuff you're still looking at over $1000, to do it with the best stuff to start out you're looking at over $2000. As long as the start up costs are that high to race at a competitive level, and the costs to continue to be high to stay competitive, the number of people getting into the hobby probably won't outnumber the people getting out of it.
If people could get a RTR car and show up at a track and just have fun and not care that they're not keeping up with the higher dollar stuff the hobby would probably be quite healthy. However, it's just not in people's nature to be able to do that. On the same token, if more current racers could just be happy running their old equipment even if they're not as competitive as they once were we'd have far less people getting out. Yes, there are people that can do it, but they're few and far between.
Simply put, find a way to make racing a lot cheaper and the hobby will prosper. Sure, BL and Lipo might be cheaper and easier in the long run, but those two things still don't change the fact that it's expensive to get into racing RC. In fact, I would imagine more than a few people have quit RC because if brushless becoming popular. They couldn't afford the $250 for a system once others starting using it at their track, they got tired of not being able to keep up with a 13.5 with their 27T and they decided to give up.
Plus, it's coming to light that maybe brushless really isn't a cheaper alternative to brushed in the long run. But that's for another discussion...
What it comes down to is money... The initial investment to start racing is just too great. Lets say someone walks into a hobby shop and says they want a racing setup that is competitive. Lets add it up...
Car 250-500
Radio 170-500
Charger 130-400
Discharger/Tray 40-200
Batteries 150-300
Power Supply 60-150
Brushless System 170-250
Tires/body/tools 100-200
You could also throw another $200 in there for PT's and toolboxes.
So, cutting corners on new stuff you're still looking at over $1000, to do it with the best stuff to start out you're looking at over $2000. As long as the start up costs are that high to race at a competitive level, and the costs to continue to be high to stay competitive, the number of people getting into the hobby probably won't outnumber the people getting out of it.
If people could get a RTR car and show up at a track and just have fun and not care that they're not keeping up with the higher dollar stuff the hobby would probably be quite healthy. However, it's just not in people's nature to be able to do that. On the same token, if more current racers could just be happy running their old equipment even if they're not as competitive as they once were we'd have far less people getting out. Yes, there are people that can do it, but they're few and far between.
Simply put, find a way to make racing a lot cheaper and the hobby will prosper. Sure, BL and Lipo might be cheaper and easier in the long run, but those two things still don't change the fact that it's expensive to get into racing RC. In fact, I would imagine more than a few people have quit RC because if brushless becoming popular. They couldn't afford the $250 for a system once others starting using it at their track, they got tired of not being able to keep up with a 13.5 with their 27T and they decided to give up.
Plus, it's coming to light that maybe brushless really isn't a cheaper alternative to brushed in the long run. But that's for another discussion...
01-11-2008, 03:54 PM
#798
Garth
That maybe true, but that class (GT2) was way small as it is with GT split up. Not trying to take anything away from you and Ben.
I myself like the 13.5 and don't feel the need for a 10.5 or feel the need to slow down with a 17.5. I used to scoff at a 13.5 at our track because I felt it was an unfair advantage against 27t bushing motors, which is why I liked19t, but after running an Lrp 13.5. I for one have changed my mind.
Let 13.5 be the new stock. If people can't handle that and think it's too fast than I don't know..it's all about practice and throttle control anyway....the latter to a point.
That maybe true, but that class (GT2) was way small as it is with GT split up. Not trying to take anything away from you and Ben.
I myself like the 13.5 and don't feel the need for a 10.5 or feel the need to slow down with a 17.5. I used to scoff at a 13.5 at our track because I felt it was an unfair advantage against 27t bushing motors, which is why I liked19t, but after running an Lrp 13.5. I for one have changed my mind.
Let 13.5 be the new stock. If people can't handle that and think it's too fast than I don't know..it's all about practice and throttle control anyway....the latter to a point.
again lap time do not lie
I know that everyone says "the fast guys" quit racing the class
I was impresed with it (17.5) considering my car weighed 3lbs 12 oz
Dont get me wrong, Im sure the results will be different with the "united" GT class (after the top 4-5 in GT2 was anemic I know). I was just making the stand for the 17.5's since most people on the boards havent even tried it
This next season will be tell all on the 17.5. See you soon David
Still my vote is 17.5 for the new stock
01-11-2008, 03:55 PM
#799
I got started in touring cars 1999. I paid about $350 for a car kit, radio, speedo, paint, and 2 battery packs. Back then I though it was a lot of money. I was racing all that stuff within a month and doing well enough to keep up in no time.
Now fast forward to 2008. If I were a newbie and I were to look at the prices for everything...I would never start touring car racing.
anyways...back to ROAR BL motor rules debate
01-11-2008, 04:29 PM
#800
If we really want to "save" the hobby and get new people interested, brushless, nor LIPO, nor slowing speeds down are going to do it. Sure, maybe they'll help a little but they're not the answer to grow the hobby at any decent rate.
What it comes down to is money... The initial investment to start racing is just too great. Lets say someone walks into a hobby shop and says they want a racing setup that is competitive. Lets add it up...
Car 250-500
Radio 170-500
Charger 130-400
Discharger/Tray 40-200
Batteries 150-300
Power Supply 60-150
Brushless System 170-250
Tires/body/tools 100-200
You could also throw another $200 in there for PT's and toolboxes.
So, cutting corners on new stuff you're still looking at over $1000, to do it with the best stuff to start out you're looking at over $2000. As long as the start up costs are that high to race at a competitive level, and the costs to continue to be high to stay competitive, the number of people getting into the hobby probably won't outnumber the people getting out of it.
If people could get a RTR car and show up at a track and just have fun and not care that they're not keeping up with the higher dollar stuff the hobby would probably be quite healthy. However, it's just not in people's nature to be able to do that. On the same token, if more current racers could just be happy running their old equipment even if they're not as competitive as they once were we'd have far less people getting out. Yes, there are people that can do it, but they're few and far between.
Simply put, find a way to make racing a lot cheaper and the hobby will prosper. Sure, BL and Lipo might be cheaper and easier in the long run, but those two things still don't change the fact that it's expensive to get into racing RC. In fact, I would imagine more than a few people have quit RC because if brushless becoming popular. They couldn't afford the $250 for a system once others starting using it at their track, they got tired of not being able to keep up with a 13.5 with their 27T and they decided to give up.
Plus, it's coming to light that maybe brushless really isn't a cheaper alternative to brushed in the long run. But that's for another discussion...
What it comes down to is money... The initial investment to start racing is just too great. Lets say someone walks into a hobby shop and says they want a racing setup that is competitive. Lets add it up...
Car 250-500
Radio 170-500
Charger 130-400
Discharger/Tray 40-200
Batteries 150-300
Power Supply 60-150
Brushless System 170-250
Tires/body/tools 100-200
You could also throw another $200 in there for PT's and toolboxes.
So, cutting corners on new stuff you're still looking at over $1000, to do it with the best stuff to start out you're looking at over $2000. As long as the start up costs are that high to race at a competitive level, and the costs to continue to be high to stay competitive, the number of people getting into the hobby probably won't outnumber the people getting out of it.
If people could get a RTR car and show up at a track and just have fun and not care that they're not keeping up with the higher dollar stuff the hobby would probably be quite healthy. However, it's just not in people's nature to be able to do that. On the same token, if more current racers could just be happy running their old equipment even if they're not as competitive as they once were we'd have far less people getting out. Yes, there are people that can do it, but they're few and far between.
Simply put, find a way to make racing a lot cheaper and the hobby will prosper. Sure, BL and Lipo might be cheaper and easier in the long run, but those two things still don't change the fact that it's expensive to get into racing RC. In fact, I would imagine more than a few people have quit RC because if brushless becoming popular. They couldn't afford the $250 for a system once others starting using it at their track, they got tired of not being able to keep up with a 13.5 with their 27T and they decided to give up.
Plus, it's coming to light that maybe brushless really isn't a cheaper alternative to brushed in the long run. But that's for another discussion...
ROAR could give everybody on this thread motors and batteries for free, half the people would start a thread, "thanks for the crappy motor, I can't win with it...".
People spend money on hobbies, and it doesn't matter WHAT it is, as long as they are having fun. The minute the fun is over, they find another hobby that is just as expensive, or is the equivalent to whatever money they have to blow on the hobby and entertainment.
01-11-2008, 04:47 PM
#803
(temporary thread hi-jack)
If I were a noob, I'd think, I need a hobby. What to do?
Top notch paint ball stuff, $3 grand.
Top notch golf stuff, $3 grand.
Top notch Dirt bike, $7500 (and there is the risk of SERIOUS personal injury)
Top notch RC package, $1000.
You can't really compare the high price of one without the high price of the others.
We offer a great value, ANYBODY can do it, young, old, male, female, handicapped, all can do this. There is no threat of personal harm, it's fast, exciting, you can work on it on the kitchen table. We offer a lot as hobby. And I've left off the more important piece of it. Good camaraderie and freindships that exist and start at the track.
I've got a LOT of very good RC friends within say 500 miles in any direction of where we live. How cool that in a pinch, if myself or any member of my family is traveling somewhere and in some kind of emergency bind, I can say, stop by this dudes house, he can help! That's cool.
If I were a noob, I'd think, I need a hobby. What to do?
Top notch paint ball stuff, $3 grand.
Top notch golf stuff, $3 grand.
Top notch Dirt bike, $7500 (and there is the risk of SERIOUS personal injury)
Top notch RC package, $1000.
You can't really compare the high price of one without the high price of the others.
We offer a great value, ANYBODY can do it, young, old, male, female, handicapped, all can do this. There is no threat of personal harm, it's fast, exciting, you can work on it on the kitchen table. We offer a lot as hobby. And I've left off the more important piece of it. Good camaraderie and freindships that exist and start at the track.
I've got a LOT of very good RC friends within say 500 miles in any direction of where we live. How cool that in a pinch, if myself or any member of my family is traveling somewhere and in some kind of emergency bind, I can say, stop by this dudes house, he can help! That's cool.
01-11-2008, 04:50 PM
#804
There are a lot of small track carpet guys posting here. This is normal as they are the most vocal....but please keep in mind that MOST ROAR members live and race in CA, FL, TX and other states where we run outdoors most of the year.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.
Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.
On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.
Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
01-11-2008, 04:59 PM
#805
a noob with money
I agree that r/c is relatively inexpensive compared to the other sports/hobbies mentioned. But 1k for a kid is expensive. Add to that 1k the cost of consumables like tires, and then race and practice fees, and soon that 1k is just the start.
How about comparing r/c to video games -> let's see, $400 for the system + $40 a game. Now r/c seems expensive, especially when tires are $40 a set.
To bring new racers in, you have to have classes that are inexpensive and allow the budget racer to think they have a shot. That means some sort of spec racing. Once the newbie gets the bug, they will move up themselves.
The sad state of r/c racing got that way because as the numbers of racers dwindled and no newbies replaced them, the racers left are more hardcore racers, who will do and spend whatever to win. That mentality, and frowning on r/c for fun is what hurts the hobby.
With all that said, roar should release rules for a budget spec class. The class should be speed restricted and should be geared toward new racers. Slowing down "stock" which hasn't been stock for a decade, is not the answer and will only cause more racers to stop racing, without bringing anyone new into this hobby.
I know that Roar's job is to send usa drivers to the ifmar worlds, but because many tracks look to roar to set up their rules, roar's rules should also be designed to help the tracks bring in new racers.
How about comparing r/c to video games -> let's see, $400 for the system + $40 a game. Now r/c seems expensive, especially when tires are $40 a set.
To bring new racers in, you have to have classes that are inexpensive and allow the budget racer to think they have a shot. That means some sort of spec racing. Once the newbie gets the bug, they will move up themselves.
The sad state of r/c racing got that way because as the numbers of racers dwindled and no newbies replaced them, the racers left are more hardcore racers, who will do and spend whatever to win. That mentality, and frowning on r/c for fun is what hurts the hobby.
With all that said, roar should release rules for a budget spec class. The class should be speed restricted and should be geared toward new racers. Slowing down "stock" which hasn't been stock for a decade, is not the answer and will only cause more racers to stop racing, without bringing anyone new into this hobby.
I know that Roar's job is to send usa drivers to the ifmar worlds, but because many tracks look to roar to set up their rules, roar's rules should also be designed to help the tracks bring in new racers.
01-11-2008, 05:11 PM
#806
Bob, you are right, people change hobbies as soon as their current one is no longer fun. Personally, I don't care what I run, as long as there is competition and room for me to grow.
So then the question is, is making the stock classes slower than 13.5 REALLY going to help? I do not want a slower motor than 13.5, but if the club requires it, I will move just so I have something to run and some competition to be had. I have read all the posts, and I am not convinced that 17.5 or 21.5 will help.
Since I had started in nitro, anything slower than mod seems WAY to slow to me, and I would almost rather take a nap, except for the fact that there are friends to compete and bicker with;-)
I do see the point in slowing the classes down. Slower speed= less money spent on broken parts. The majority of racers are only decent drivers, as it takes a significant amount of money and time to get the necessary experience in. However, as most hobbies are, this one is a fair chunk of money per year.
Look at 8th offroad however, it is very very expensive. My Losi 8 was just a hair more than $1200 to get on the ground minus my radio, yet 8th offroad is probably the biggest class today.
So then the question is, is making the stock classes slower than 13.5 REALLY going to help? I do not want a slower motor than 13.5, but if the club requires it, I will move just so I have something to run and some competition to be had. I have read all the posts, and I am not convinced that 17.5 or 21.5 will help.
Since I had started in nitro, anything slower than mod seems WAY to slow to me, and I would almost rather take a nap, except for the fact that there are friends to compete and bicker with;-)
I do see the point in slowing the classes down. Slower speed= less money spent on broken parts. The majority of racers are only decent drivers, as it takes a significant amount of money and time to get the necessary experience in. However, as most hobbies are, this one is a fair chunk of money per year.
Look at 8th offroad however, it is very very expensive. My Losi 8 was just a hair more than $1200 to get on the ground minus my radio, yet 8th offroad is probably the biggest class today.
01-11-2008, 05:19 PM
#807
How about comparing r/c to video games -> let's see, $400 for the system + $40 a game. Now r/c seems expensive, especially when tires are $40 a set.
To bring new racers in, you have to have classes that are inexpensive and allow the budget racer to think they have a shot. That means some sort of spec racing.
To bring new racers in, you have to have classes that are inexpensive and allow the budget racer to think they have a shot. That means some sort of spec racing.
I'd bet 90% of consoles are purchased as gifts.
I've spent about $400 on Guitar Hero, and am about to blow another $170 on rock band. And we now have a PS-1, PS-2, PS-3 and an X-box. It ain't any cheaper, let me tell ya. And mine is not a unique situation. How about the PC gamers building $3 and $4k machines to enhance their play?
Spec racing works locally (on occaision), does not work "Nationally". You can't have a class that you lured people into doing because it's cheaper than the other classes and then throw a "nationals" and then expect them to take a week off work, airfare, hotels, etc, and drop $1500 to do it.
01-11-2008, 05:44 PM
#808
Seriously, video gaming is quite expensive.
Mind you, I have a modded PS2 v14 with Crystal Chip Pro SLE, 2 Modded Xboxes with 400GB drives, and a stock Xbox 360, each xbox is about $400 with the lighting, case, chip, and HD the PS2 was a measly $150 with chip, and Xbox 360, well I won't go there, its had the RROD 3 times in less than a year. I don't enjoy games too much, but I do enjoy the modding process and turning it into a better piece of hardware, just like my race vehicles without the bling.
Even so, with out mods...oh about $500-800 per console with games.
Back onto topic:
In nitro you join by driver skill class, why is it in electric you join by motor class? I would much rather be able to sign up for the intermediate heats than, oh say 19t because then you have all skill levels and sometimes its not fun getting whooped all the time or getting taken out by noobs.
Mind you, I have a modded PS2 v14 with Crystal Chip Pro SLE, 2 Modded Xboxes with 400GB drives, and a stock Xbox 360, each xbox is about $400 with the lighting, case, chip, and HD the PS2 was a measly $150 with chip, and Xbox 360, well I won't go there, its had the RROD 3 times in less than a year. I don't enjoy games too much, but I do enjoy the modding process and turning it into a better piece of hardware, just like my race vehicles without the bling.
Even so, with out mods...oh about $500-800 per console with games.
Back onto topic:
In nitro you join by driver skill class, why is it in electric you join by motor class? I would much rather be able to sign up for the intermediate heats than, oh say 19t because then you have all skill levels and sometimes its not fun getting whooped all the time or getting taken out by noobs.
01-11-2008, 06:28 PM
#809
Tech Master
Spec racing...
Doesn't Tamiya do that? I mean, they are really strict on their rules. The Tamiya Granprix in Japan is doing really well.
But it's amazing they are allowing the use of BL and Lipo for TCS 2008.
Oh yeah, let me tell you about video games. I had the Super Famicom (SNES) and the games on it were like $130 (most of the Final Fantasy games). When the Japanese street fighter 2 came out, the local store sold it for like $139.99. Now it is a door stop.
Ok back to the topic. lol
Doesn't Tamiya do that? I mean, they are really strict on their rules. The Tamiya Granprix in Japan is doing really well.
But it's amazing they are allowing the use of BL and Lipo for TCS 2008.
Oh yeah, let me tell you about video games. I had the Super Famicom (SNES) and the games on it were like $130 (most of the Final Fantasy games). When the Japanese street fighter 2 came out, the local store sold it for like $139.99. Now it is a door stop.
Ok back to the topic. lol
01-11-2008, 07:20 PM
#810
If it's soley a financial decision, explain how it is I saw 400+ racers at the last Motocross event I was at in Montana? I was there with (2) $6500 bikes, a trailer, $1000 worth of custom knee braces, another $1000 in protective gear, etc...etc...People spend money on hobbies, ... whatever money they have to blow on the hobby and entertainment.
Not that I agree with this situation but it is the reality of where we fit in society