ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-03-2008, 09:23 AM
#181
I keep hearing that the 13.5 BL is so much faster that the 27 turn brushed motors but I've been able to and know several people who can tune a 27 turn and make it as fast or faster than a 13.5 so I dont understand what the problem is.
Part of being a rookie is learning and the first thing they need to learn is that slower is faster ( Its called trigger control)and as they improve they can go faster. But we (13.5 stock drivers) dont need to be slowed down becouse they havent learned this yet, thats what the rookie class is for.
I think the 13.5 is a great stock motor and the 10.5 for 19 turn.
Just my 2 cents.
Part of being a rookie is learning and the first thing they need to learn is that slower is faster ( Its called trigger control)and as they improve they can go faster. But we (13.5 stock drivers) dont need to be slowed down becouse they havent learned this yet, thats what the rookie class is for.
I think the 13.5 is a great stock motor and the 10.5 for 19 turn.
Just my 2 cents.
01-03-2008, 09:29 AM
#182
Most of the US races outdoors on asphalt. I run 19T or open mod mostly. 13.5 in a sedan is not exciting to me and is certianly not as fast as a 19T at my local 170x50 track . 10.5 is perfect pace wise with a 19T.
13.5 is too fast compared to stock an not as fast as 19T so the classes should be:
17.5/27T
10.5/19T
Open Mod
13.5 gets raced at club races as long as there is interest in it then it goes away just like 23T did on the late 80's.
13.5 is too fast compared to stock an not as fast as 19T so the classes should be:
17.5/27T
10.5/19T
Open Mod
13.5 gets raced at club races as long as there is interest in it then it goes away just like 23T did on the late 80's.
Spot on....
01-03-2008, 09:29 AM
#183
From what I've seen in the past year 13.5 is maybe a tenth or two a lap faster then a good brushed motor. Everyone who keeps saying oh they are so much faster they are too fast, I don't get it. Sorry. I don't get it. The only time I feel that a 13.5 has a true unmistakeable advantage to a brushed motor is in 12th scale.
01-03-2008, 09:40 AM
#186
For one, you guys have made every other thread STOP for the day! 
And Second, I think there's a BIG point missing. Yeah, these rules are mainly for the big races and local clubs can do what they want. BUT.... and it's a big BUT, look how small of a percentage of the RC market is racing. Hobbytown doesn't even stock for racing. So Club Level IS the most important here and having too many classes is a main contributor to the problems at a club level.
Going to a big race has costs way higher than stocking your pit box with a couple extra motors. But if this is REALLY about the direction of our hobby, lets look at the big picture and the largest percentage of racers... club racing. my 2 cents.
And Second, I think there's a BIG point missing. Yeah, these rules are mainly for the big races and local clubs can do what they want. BUT.... and it's a big BUT, look how small of a percentage of the RC market is racing. Hobbytown doesn't even stock for racing. So Club Level IS the most important here and having too many classes is a main contributor to the problems at a club level.
Going to a big race has costs way higher than stocking your pit box with a couple extra motors. But if this is REALLY about the direction of our hobby, lets look at the big picture and the largest percentage of racers... club racing. my 2 cents.
01-03-2008, 09:41 AM
#187
From my experience, here's what I've seen on carpet (on-road and oval)
On-Road - We have a great stock racer who's usually in A or B mains nationally. Then we have some guys who are good regional racers, and can have A and B main runs at regionals. Thats about a tenth and a half or two tenths difference a lap between them. When the regional guys put 13.5's in they closed that gap almost entirely. They'd still lose because they weren't as consistant, but it showed what a great lap on those motors were capable of. 13.5 is faster than 27T on carpet...hands down. Too fast is obviously relative and a different discussion.
Oval - 13.5 is running laps now (wingless in the BRL) that would rival the speeds of 19t easily. A number of guys started running the 10.5 at first (since it was in the original pair of Novak motors) and felt it was too fast for them coming from 19t. They've found their comfort zone in 13.5. The same is true when considering stock to 17.5.
I don't know how it works on dirt, honestly I'm not in touch with that scene at all. But on carpet 13.5 is in no way equivalent to a 27t motor.
On-Road - We have a great stock racer who's usually in A or B mains nationally. Then we have some guys who are good regional racers, and can have A and B main runs at regionals. Thats about a tenth and a half or two tenths difference a lap between them. When the regional guys put 13.5's in they closed that gap almost entirely. They'd still lose because they weren't as consistant, but it showed what a great lap on those motors were capable of. 13.5 is faster than 27T on carpet...hands down. Too fast is obviously relative and a different discussion.
Oval - 13.5 is running laps now (wingless in the BRL) that would rival the speeds of 19t easily. A number of guys started running the 10.5 at first (since it was in the original pair of Novak motors) and felt it was too fast for them coming from 19t. They've found their comfort zone in 13.5. The same is true when considering stock to 17.5.
I don't know how it works on dirt, honestly I'm not in touch with that scene at all. But on carpet 13.5 is in no way equivalent to a 27t motor.
01-03-2008, 09:41 AM
#188
From what I've seen in the past year 13.5 is maybe a tenth or two a lap faster then a good brushed motor. Everyone who keeps saying oh they are so much faster they are too fast, I don't get it. Sorry. I don't get it. The only time I feel that a 13.5 has a true unmistakeable advantage to a brushed motor is in 12th scale.
01-03-2008, 09:43 AM
#189
3 brushless against 1 brushed, the brushed was as fast top speed wise, and you're saying none of them know how to gear them?......I played with gearing, wasn't afraid to gear to the moon, so I'd say that we do know how to gear them.....
01-03-2008, 09:46 AM
#190
From my experience, here's what I've seen on carpet (on-road and oval)
Thats about a tenth and a half or two tenths difference a lap between them. When the regional guys put 13.5's in they closed that gap almost entirely. They'd still lose because they weren't as consistant, but it showed what a great lap on those motors were capable of. 13.5 is faster than 27T on carpet...hands down.
Thats about a tenth and a half or two tenths difference a lap between them. When the regional guys put 13.5's in they closed that gap almost entirely. They'd still lose because they weren't as consistant, but it showed what a great lap on those motors were capable of. 13.5 is faster than 27T on carpet...hands down.
01-03-2008, 09:46 AM
#191
There still can't be that much difference in carpet & dirt racing....
Last edited by NR-C; 01-03-2008 at 09:49 AM. Reason: wrong thought process
01-03-2008, 09:56 AM
#192
When traction goes down, available power becomes less important I think would be the PC way to put that
Which I guess is one reason to be afraid of what 17.5 might do to stock (or lowest national class) off-road racing. If you tame the power down to the point that there's very little surplus power compared to traction you might lose some of the importance of the nut holding the wheel and his trigger finger.
I don't envy ROAR in this decision at all, there's a lot to consider.
Which I guess is one reason to be afraid of what 17.5 might do to stock (or lowest national class) off-road racing. If you tame the power down to the point that there's very little surplus power compared to traction you might lose some of the importance of the nut holding the wheel and his trigger finger.
I don't envy ROAR in this decision at all, there's a lot to consider.
01-03-2008, 10:03 AM
#193
When traction goes down, available power becomes less important I think would be the PC way to put that
Which I guess is one reason to be afraid of what 17.5 might do to stock (or lowest national class) off-road racing. If you tame the power down to the point that there's very little surplus power compared to traction you might lose some of the importance of the nut holding the wheel and his trigger finger.
I don't envy ROAR in this decision at all, there's a lot to consider.
Which I guess is one reason to be afraid of what 17.5 might do to stock (or lowest national class) off-road racing. If you tame the power down to the point that there's very little surplus power compared to traction you might lose some of the importance of the nut holding the wheel and his trigger finger.
I don't envy ROAR in this decision at all, there's a lot to consider.
01-03-2008, 10:04 AM
#194
On asphalt in TC a 13.5 and stock 27 are equal from what I've seen. Actually the 27 has kicked our tales for most of the year. Now everyone is going to the 13.5 just because of the easy motor maintaince- none.Maybe for paved oval it should be a 17.5 since it's a different type of racing.
I tried a 14.5 in TC and it was slower than a stock 27.I've yet to see a 13.5 as fast as a 19t in TC.
I tried a 14.5 in TC and it was slower than a stock 27.I've yet to see a 13.5 as fast as a 19t in TC.
01-03-2008, 10:10 AM
#195
Tech Regular
On the whole 12th LiPo thing, I'v tried a couple of different things in 12th.
First, single cell voltage really didn't feel all that bad. The only issue is the fact that you need to run HUGE gears to get the car back up to speed. With a 5400 mAh 3.7v pack, dumping is not an issue. I could run a 3.5 with the 3.7v pack without dumping and it was about the same laptime as a 5.5 NiMh.
Second, two cell voltage has some issues. First is obviously the voltage but you have to look at how much current the cells can handle. When I tested 2 cell voltage in mod it was interesting. There were weight balance issues (I was under weight), and the car felt a little flat on the infield (cell quality?). The one thing that I did like about 2 cell voltage in mod was the fact that you could actually dump. It was nice because you actually had to drive the car and there was some strategy to how you used the power and when.
Two cell votage would probably require a higher wind motor for an entry level class. Personally, I think that IF we were to allow LiPo in 12th we should start with mod and see how it goes. One plus for 2 cell is that most of the new speedo's have a LiPo cutoff built in for 2 cell already.
First, single cell voltage really didn't feel all that bad. The only issue is the fact that you need to run HUGE gears to get the car back up to speed. With a 5400 mAh 3.7v pack, dumping is not an issue. I could run a 3.5 with the 3.7v pack without dumping and it was about the same laptime as a 5.5 NiMh.
Second, two cell voltage has some issues. First is obviously the voltage but you have to look at how much current the cells can handle. When I tested 2 cell voltage in mod it was interesting. There were weight balance issues (I was under weight), and the car felt a little flat on the infield (cell quality?). The one thing that I did like about 2 cell voltage in mod was the fact that you could actually dump. It was nice because you actually had to drive the car and there was some strategy to how you used the power and when.
Two cell votage would probably require a higher wind motor for an entry level class. Personally, I think that IF we were to allow LiPo in 12th we should start with mod and see how it goes. One plus for 2 cell is that most of the new speedo's have a LiPo cutoff built in for 2 cell already.