why are we still running sub-c cells??
12-25-2007, 10:41 AM
#271
From what I understand, the 13.5 is faster than 27t brushed, and the 17.5 is slower. Sure you can gear the 17.5 to the moon and make it fast, but that makes the motor run hotter and draw more amps. As has been mentioned and as I have seen, 19t and stock can run very similar lap times depending on the track. If that is the case, how does mandating a different brushless motor to run with stock change anything?
And, for all of those that complain that novak has the bl market and they want to run lrp, orion, etc, at this time, only novak has the 17.5.
The talk about fairness always comes from the brushed racers who think that brushless has an unfair edge (which in the 13.5 it does, although the edge gets smaller as the brushed racer is better.) But, handicapping a far superior technology to placate those that want to hold onto brushed for another year will not help.
If roar does make the 17.5 the stock equivalent, I guess all of those that bought the 13.5 will have to get the 17.5. That is another $80 people have to spend to run bl. I am not complaining about the $80, because I will spend it, but forcing bl racers to waste another $80 to compete with outdated and declining technology contradicts all of the brushed advocates whose main argument is to stay with brushed to save racers money.
And, for all of those that complain that novak has the bl market and they want to run lrp, orion, etc, at this time, only novak has the 17.5.
The talk about fairness always comes from the brushed racers who think that brushless has an unfair edge (which in the 13.5 it does, although the edge gets smaller as the brushed racer is better.) But, handicapping a far superior technology to placate those that want to hold onto brushed for another year will not help.
If roar does make the 17.5 the stock equivalent, I guess all of those that bought the 13.5 will have to get the 17.5. That is another $80 people have to spend to run bl. I am not complaining about the $80, because I will spend it, but forcing bl racers to waste another $80 to compete with outdated and declining technology contradicts all of the brushed advocates whose main argument is to stay with brushed to save racers money.
You jumped the gun on what will/should be considered stock.
What will happen at all the Big races where stock is a handout motor? Add another $40 to $60 to the entry fee to run BL?
At those major races, there is no "team handpicked motor"
12-25-2007, 11:15 AM
#272
Slayer ,
Roar stock Nats have been using hand-out`s for year`s....
So racing with your tuner ability`s as you like has not change yet.
But I believe all this will change with the new spec brushless 17.5 if it gets approved...
A new Roar stock motor hopefully will be more tamper proof by design...
so
The coming year`s ahead will require tuning your chassis, driving skills, battery`s, tires & ESC for more speed only....
The field is going to be the most equal in speed than ever before and "tuning" motor`s will most difficult ....
Not so bad !
I find this a good event for spec racing as a whole if it happens...
Roar stock Nats have been using hand-out`s for year`s....
So racing with your tuner ability`s as you like has not change yet.
But I believe all this will change with the new spec brushless 17.5 if it gets approved...
A new Roar stock motor hopefully will be more tamper proof by design...
so
The coming year`s ahead will require tuning your chassis, driving skills, battery`s, tires & ESC for more speed only....
The field is going to be the most equal in speed than ever before and "tuning" motor`s will most difficult ....
Not so bad !
I find this a good event for spec racing as a whole if it happens...
12-25-2007, 11:31 AM
#273
I'm not saying you'de be a better man. What I was refering to is when you go to these races were hand out motors are givin to each driver, it becomes your resposability to make that motor fast. Everyone is givin the same based motor! I feel there is more of a good feeling in knowing that you had the same motor as the guy next to you in the begining of the day
and now your two laps ahead of him cause of your own hard work. Like I said, brushless for club racing is a good idea but when it comes to trophy races, build your own motor and see how good you did!
and now your two laps ahead of him cause of your own hard work. Like I said, brushless for club racing is a good idea but when it comes to trophy races, build your own motor and see how good you did!
12-25-2007, 05:48 PM
#274
Tech Regular
I don't think that you'll find that the new ROAR prez is dumb enough to suggest that we need to "force" everyone to run out and buy another new motor. Why is it that so many of the "stock" guys (not necessarily you) get all hot and bothered when someone suggests a class that might actually slow things down a little? It's not like 13.5 is going to go away regardless of the ROAR rules. They're going to have to cator to 13.5 and I think the best thing to do is make it more like the current 19 turn class. It should be a spec class in between "stock" and "mod".
I think that we need two brushless "spec" classes for 6 cell. The first class is 13.5 this would give a new class for the "fast" stock guys and the 19 turn guys if they want to go brushless. The second class would be slower (17.5 or even higher/slower). This new slower class would give the bulk of the stock guys, new people, and hobbyists a class to race in.
The whole brushless debate is a little off topic here for this thread so to try to bring it back in line on the battery issue...
I think that the new "spec" brushless rules are going to be the perfect opportunity to allow LiPo into the 6 cell classes. It's a perfect time to bring in the LiPo's with a little extra weight and still allow NiMh with a weight disadvantage. This way, it won't "force" everyone to rush out and go LiPo but it will make it more of an advantage if you go LiPo.
After a couple of years, they could relax the weight rules even more so that LiPo (or some new chemistry) will have more of an advantage. Mod is mod, and I think that we'll have to look a little harder at what the weights will need to be going foreward.
I think that we need two brushless "spec" classes for 6 cell. The first class is 13.5 this would give a new class for the "fast" stock guys and the 19 turn guys if they want to go brushless. The second class would be slower (17.5 or even higher/slower). This new slower class would give the bulk of the stock guys, new people, and hobbyists a class to race in.
The whole brushless debate is a little off topic here for this thread so to try to bring it back in line on the battery issue...
I think that the new "spec" brushless rules are going to be the perfect opportunity to allow LiPo into the 6 cell classes. It's a perfect time to bring in the LiPo's with a little extra weight and still allow NiMh with a weight disadvantage. This way, it won't "force" everyone to rush out and go LiPo but it will make it more of an advantage if you go LiPo.
After a couple of years, they could relax the weight rules even more so that LiPo (or some new chemistry) will have more of an advantage. Mod is mod, and I think that we'll have to look a little harder at what the weights will need to be going foreward.
12-25-2007, 06:46 PM
#275
Maybe its you that sucks for not wanting to spend the time to improve on something anyone can buy over the counter.
Sounds like you run in a spec class with premounted tires, that saves a lot of time, bl motor and lipo battery, do you all run the same chassis and bodies?
Just dont have "time" to mess with all that preparation and maintinance stuff
Oh, and "most people" still "race" with brushed motors.
Sounds like you run in a spec class with premounted tires, that saves a lot of time, bl motor and lipo battery, do you all run the same chassis and bodies?
Just dont have "time" to mess with all that preparation and maintinance stuff
Oh, and "most people" still "race" with brushed motors.
12-25-2007, 07:28 PM
#277
I don't think that you'll find that the new ROAR prez is dumb enough to suggest that we need to "force" everyone to run out and buy another new motor. Why is it that so many of the "stock" guys (not necessarily you) get all hot and bothered when someone suggests a class that might actually slow things down a little? It's not like 13.5 is going to go away regardless of the ROAR rules. They're going to have to cator to 13.5 and I think the best thing to do is make it more like the current 19 turn class. It should be a spec class in between "stock" and "mod".
I think that we need two brushless "spec" classes for 6 cell. The first class is 13.5 this would give a new class for the "fast" stock guys and the 19 turn guys if they want to go brushless. The second class would be slower (17.5 or even higher/slower). This new slower class would give the bulk of the stock guys, new people, and hobbyists a class to race in.
The whole brushless debate is a little off topic here for this thread so to try to bring it back in line on the battery issue...
I think that the new "spec" brushless rules are going to be the perfect opportunity to allow LiPo into the 6 cell classes. It's a perfect time to bring in the LiPo's with a little extra weight and still allow NiMh with a weight disadvantage. This way, it won't "force" everyone to rush out and go LiPo but it will make it more of an advantage if you go LiPo.
After a couple of years, they could relax the weight rules even more so that LiPo (or some new chemistry) will have more of an advantage. Mod is mod, and I think that we'll have to look a little harder at what the weights will need to be going foreward.
I think that we need two brushless "spec" classes for 6 cell. The first class is 13.5 this would give a new class for the "fast" stock guys and the 19 turn guys if they want to go brushless. The second class would be slower (17.5 or even higher/slower). This new slower class would give the bulk of the stock guys, new people, and hobbyists a class to race in.
The whole brushless debate is a little off topic here for this thread so to try to bring it back in line on the battery issue...
I think that the new "spec" brushless rules are going to be the perfect opportunity to allow LiPo into the 6 cell classes. It's a perfect time to bring in the LiPo's with a little extra weight and still allow NiMh with a weight disadvantage. This way, it won't "force" everyone to rush out and go LiPo but it will make it more of an advantage if you go LiPo.
After a couple of years, they could relax the weight rules even more so that LiPo (or some new chemistry) will have more of an advantage. Mod is mod, and I think that we'll have to look a little harder at what the weights will need to be going foreward.
And lipo gets a weight break, ah, is that for the brushed motors that cant keep up?
You running for US pres or something?
12-25-2007, 08:14 PM
#279
Tech Regular
What we do is run the Lipo at the same weight as the NiMh, nobody can complain about that. Don't tell me about the technology of the Lipo is being wasted...who cares... it is still easier to use (for me), and it doesn't tick off the guys with NiMh that aren't ready to run Lipo for whatever reason they have. It really isn't any of my business why they don't want to switch.
As far as performance, it seems that the NiMh is faster up front but the Lipo is faster at the end, five minute runs seem to come out about the same with very equal cars and drivers.
It sure is a lot easier working out a plan that makes everyone happy rather than bad mouthing one type of battery (either type) and trying to force anybody into spending their money! Again...not my business. We can not afford to lose one single person from our hobby/sport these days.
All of this is with the 13.5 BL, I will not comment on motor performance because this thread is supposed to be about battery's.
As far as performance, it seems that the NiMh is faster up front but the Lipo is faster at the end, five minute runs seem to come out about the same with very equal cars and drivers.
It sure is a lot easier working out a plan that makes everyone happy rather than bad mouthing one type of battery (either type) and trying to force anybody into spending their money! Again...not my business. We can not afford to lose one single person from our hobby/sport these days.
All of this is with the 13.5 BL, I will not comment on motor performance because this thread is supposed to be about battery's.
12-25-2007, 08:49 PM
#280
Tech Regular
On the motor thing, I was simply saying what I think would be a good direction. I'll be running 13.5 and that's not going to go away any time soon. It is what it is.
As far as the weight with the LiPo's are concerned, it has absolutely nothing to do with the brushed motors. It would be nice to be able to run a rubber tire car outdoors without 7 ounces of lead on the car. The NiMh guys are also adding some pretty big chunks of lead on most of the cars. There's a happy medium here... Might be a different story indoors.
12-25-2007, 09:53 PM
#281
i agree with unregistered.
i bet my life on it,that 2-3 years from now someone will say,do u believe those fooles,they used to run their lipo packs with 7oz of lead weight strapped on them.
it does not make any sense to cancel 1/2 the advantege of lipo by adding weights,but its a transition period and some are still running nimh,myself included in 1/12 scale,so the 2 batteries should meet 1/2 way with the weight limit,for now.
nimh have little extra voltage in the first 2 minutes and then they will level with lipo for the last 2 min or so..
going down on the weight limit should be fair and considerd
i bet my life on it,that 2-3 years from now someone will say,do u believe those fooles,they used to run their lipo packs with 7oz of lead weight strapped on them.
it does not make any sense to cancel 1/2 the advantege of lipo by adding weights,but its a transition period and some are still running nimh,myself included in 1/12 scale,so the 2 batteries should meet 1/2 way with the weight limit,for now.
nimh have little extra voltage in the first 2 minutes and then they will level with lipo for the last 2 min or so..
going down on the weight limit should be fair and considerd
12-25-2007, 11:09 PM
#282
trackpower, so giving lipo a weight break for not having the power of a nimh for the first 2 min is the equalizer?
So you and others that want the weight break are admiting they are just not up to competition standards now in play?
It all comes out in the fine print, LOL
I have nothing against lipo's, just started running one in my sedan while waiting for the new batch of nimh's for both my sedan and 1/12th. And no, my nimh's didn't blow up, just warn out from use since I got them in June.
What I am against is the BL/lipo crowd trying to force something on me and roar that changes everything I, and most competitive racers now have, and want it changed right now.
Don't think roar will take those steps to alienate it's current members.
So you and others that want the weight break are admiting they are just not up to competition standards now in play?
It all comes out in the fine print, LOL
I have nothing against lipo's, just started running one in my sedan while waiting for the new batch of nimh's for both my sedan and 1/12th. And no, my nimh's didn't blow up, just warn out from use since I got them in June.
What I am against is the BL/lipo crowd trying to force something on me and roar that changes everything I, and most competitive racers now have, and want it changed right now.
Don't think roar will take those steps to alienate it's current members.
12-26-2007, 07:09 AM
#283
What we do is run the Lipo at the same weight as the NiMh, nobody can complain about that. Don't tell me about the technology of the Lipo is being wasted...who cares... it is still easier to use (for me), and it doesn't tick off the guys with NiMh that aren't ready to run Lipo for whatever reason they have. It really isn't any of my business why they don't want to switch.
As far as performance, it seems that the NiMh is faster up front but the Lipo is faster at the end, five minute runs seem to come out about the same with very equal cars and drivers.
It sure is a lot easier working out a plan that makes everyone happy rather than bad mouthing one type of battery (either type) and trying to force anybody into spending their money! Again...not my business. We can not afford to lose one single person from our hobby/sport these days.
All of this is with the 13.5 BL, I will not comment on motor performance because this thread is supposed to be about battery's.
As far as performance, it seems that the NiMh is faster up front but the Lipo is faster at the end, five minute runs seem to come out about the same with very equal cars and drivers.
It sure is a lot easier working out a plan that makes everyone happy rather than bad mouthing one type of battery (either type) and trying to force anybody into spending their money! Again...not my business. We can not afford to lose one single person from our hobby/sport these days.
All of this is with the 13.5 BL, I will not comment on motor performance because this thread is supposed to be about battery's.
This is one of the few sensible posts in this thread....
12-26-2007, 09:27 AM
#285
Took a lot of time to get my 007 chassis balanced with a TrakPower 4800 lipo, and that was balancing the chassis and not at the tires with a set of scales.
Guess the Losi would be best for the light weight.
Must be that some people just don't think chassis balance matters?