5 cell in 27t/19t
03-08-2007, 05:22 AM
#286
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
Before we digress, the National racing bodies are only there to offer an umbrella organisation and create guidelines for clubs to operate within if they so wish.
Maybe the idea simply isnt practical, but if it is, it may help the clubs get more members and the BRCA feel like it is doing another thing to promote racing.
Ive probably got this totally wrong,lol.
03-08-2007, 05:24 AM
#287
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Changes to capacity are not changes to technology - it's still a bunch of plates with chemicals in between. LiPo is also a bunch of plates with a chemical in between. What you're seeing is a change to exploitation of the same technology - a bunch of different plates with a different chemical in between.
LiPo is simple now because no one really uses them. If you legalise them, you will march down the same selection/matching/cycling road we have now, and the prices will go up. Like anything made, they will go off, and they will require regular replacement - just look at the battery in your mobile (cell) 'phone, which lasts 12-15 months at best with its original performance, in regular use, and that's with low currents and charge rates!
There's a reason LiPo isn't going to take over - just ask yourself why you can only buy them from fringe suppliers to RC, and only one main RC supplier? When you have that answer, you'll know why they won't be adopted for RC on a wide scale.
LiPo is simple now because no one really uses them. If you legalise them, you will march down the same selection/matching/cycling road we have now, and the prices will go up. Like anything made, they will go off, and they will require regular replacement - just look at the battery in your mobile (cell) 'phone, which lasts 12-15 months at best with its original performance, in regular use, and that's with low currents and charge rates!
There's a reason LiPo isn't going to take over - just ask yourself why you can only buy them from fringe suppliers to RC, and only one main RC supplier? When you have that answer, you'll know why they won't be adopted for RC on a wide scale.
03-08-2007, 05:24 AM
#288
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
Before we digress, the National racing bodies are only there to offer an umbrella organisation and create guidelines for clubs to operate within if they so wish.
What people GOT to realise, it isn't UP to the BRCA/ROAR what classes and what motors as a club, you run, or even how long a race is. So there is nowt stopping clubs making a limited cost class or beginners class, there is nothing stopping clubs going 4/5/6/7 cell, in the end, the EB homologation lists are there for BRCA sanctioned bodies and a help to clubs to organise racing.
What people GOT to realise, it isn't UP to the BRCA/ROAR what classes and what motors as a club, you run, or even how long a race is. So there is nowt stopping clubs making a limited cost class or beginners class, there is nothing stopping clubs going 4/5/6/7 cell, in the end, the EB homologation lists are there for BRCA sanctioned bodies and a help to clubs to organise racing.
However a single club isn't going to have great success turning around a hurting industry. We need to pull together.
The BRCA/ROAR is there to push commonality and standards to widen the audience and scope of racing...to help join all these little clubs...to help popularize the sport.
As such, they need to be sure they aren't "missing the forest for the trees."
We need an organization that will look at the bigger picture. We need an organization that will actively seek ways to popularize the sport and bring in new drivers. It has to do more than just sanction races and specify motor windings.
If they BCRA and ROAR don't see this need, or are to entrenched in the empires they've built, perhaps it is time for a new organization.
03-08-2007, 05:36 AM
#289
Tech Adept
We live in an age of video games where anyone can race with a $200 Playstation and a $40 game CD. We need to compete with that. I think we can...if we keep it affordable and fun.
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal."
Friedrich Nietzche
We need to focus on the goal of popularizing the sport and having fun.
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal."
Friedrich Nietzche
We need to focus on the goal of popularizing the sport and having fun.
03-08-2007, 07:04 AM
#290
Tech Adept
i agree lipo is the way to go,need to advance with technology and not go backwards with 5 cell.
03-08-2007, 07:32 AM
#291
The trouble with the way things are is that there are already 3 classes of racing - stock, super stock and modified.
If you throw burshless and lipo into the story too that leaves a lot of classes and not enough time for even a major event to support them all.
Im not against lipo and brushless, but it seems it has made things awkward, as another varible to group.
Another reason why (I feel) clubs and the BRCA need to integrate better.
It will show which club races what, if we are going to race to rules and different types of car we need to have information that is easy for everyone to find.
In no way am I flaming - I just feel that maybe this is an idea that needs to be taken into consideration for the interest of this hobby.
If you throw burshless and lipo into the story too that leaves a lot of classes and not enough time for even a major event to support them all.
Im not against lipo and brushless, but it seems it has made things awkward, as another varible to group.
Another reason why (I feel) clubs and the BRCA need to integrate better.
It will show which club races what, if we are going to race to rules and different types of car we need to have information that is easy for everyone to find.
In no way am I flaming - I just feel that maybe this is an idea that needs to be taken into consideration for the interest of this hobby.
03-08-2007, 07:36 AM
#292
Tech Adept
Body aero limits and horsepower limits got me thinking of another way the motor sports limits speeds...traction limits. There are limits on ground height, wing size, tire width....F1 limited venturi devices.
If you couple this with trying to limit costs...specifically consumable costs, tires come to mind. Foam tires...shaving tires...replacing tires after every race.
What if we could eliminate that, by limiting the tire choices? If we limited traction, it would effectively put a limit on horsepower and speed.
Drifting is becoming vary popular now. Might be nice to see a little drifting instead of "stuck to the rug" indoor carpet racing.
Anyway, just another thought to bounce around on the path to improving the sport.
Brings to mind another Nietzche quote.
"There are many paths to a single goal. There are those, however, who confuse a path with a goal."
...might be paraphrasing that one. Can't find the actual quote.
If you couple this with trying to limit costs...specifically consumable costs, tires come to mind. Foam tires...shaving tires...replacing tires after every race.
What if we could eliminate that, by limiting the tire choices? If we limited traction, it would effectively put a limit on horsepower and speed.
Drifting is becoming vary popular now. Might be nice to see a little drifting instead of "stuck to the rug" indoor carpet racing.
Anyway, just another thought to bounce around on the path to improving the sport.
Brings to mind another Nietzche quote.
"There are many paths to a single goal. There are those, however, who confuse a path with a goal."
...might be paraphrasing that one. Can't find the actual quote.
03-08-2007, 07:39 AM
#293
Originally Posted by tc3team
The trouble with the way things are is that there are already 3 classes of racing - stock, super stock and modified.
If you throw burshless and lipo into the story too that leaves a lot of classes and not enough time for even a major event to support them all.
Im not against lipo and brushless, but it seems it has made things awkward, as another varible to group.
Another reason why (I feel) clubs and the BRCA need to integrate better.
It will show which club races what, if we are going to race to rules and different types of car we need to have information that is easy for everyone to find.
In no way am I flaming - I just feel that maybe this is an idea that needs to be taken into consideration for the interest of this hobby.
If you throw burshless and lipo into the story too that leaves a lot of classes and not enough time for even a major event to support them all.
Im not against lipo and brushless, but it seems it has made things awkward, as another varible to group.
Another reason why (I feel) clubs and the BRCA need to integrate better.
It will show which club races what, if we are going to race to rules and different types of car we need to have information that is easy for everyone to find.
In no way am I flaming - I just feel that maybe this is an idea that needs to be taken into consideration for the interest of this hobby.
03-08-2007, 11:20 AM
#294
Tech Fanatic
Originally Posted by Disaster
We live in an age of video games where anyone can race with a $200 Playstation and a $40 game CD. We need to compete with that. I think we can...if we keep it affordable and fun.
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal."
Friedrich Nietzche
We need to focus on the goal of popularizing the sport and having fun.
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal."
Friedrich Nietzche
We need to focus on the goal of popularizing the sport and having fun.
I am in pursuit of the goal, and all this talk about LiPo, brushless, 4/5/6 cell, etc., etc. is taking you away from the goal, not towards it. RC is much, much more than electric TC, which is the electric class suffering right now. 12th is expanding, and so is Off-Road (certainly in the UK).
There has never been a long-term, successful lo-cost class ever, and you'll not invent it now by dreaming up classes racers aren't asking for.
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
Since 10 people cannot agree on one single thing we could do, in this thread, are you surprised that nothing gets done? I'm not. You'd do more good getting your cars out to a local school or college, and racing TC in a demo, than typing posts on here.
I am not against what you are saying, nor for it. I work inside an RC organising body and I try to understand why we are where we are. I don't think that anything is 'the future' at the moment, because unless TC get out there and promote your class, it simply doesn't have one. Forget the conversation about TC classes, go out and promote your sport - that's the goal.
03-08-2007, 11:44 AM
#295
I guess the bottom line is, whatever we do unless it encourages more new people to start TC racing and others already racing to keep racing then changes like 5 cell won't be thought of as a good idea. After this year there will be an answer, if you don't try you won't know, 5 cell could be the best thing ever. I like many others just want all racing to grow and to be more popular. I've always said racing should be "fair, affordable and fun" and I agree with the sentiments in previous posts. Racing needs to be easy for newcomers to get started with a shallow learning curve, or at least not a very steep one!
Back to the thread topic, 5 cell 27-turn and 19-turn. Regarding the discussion about current draw etc it's pretty straight forward in theory, removing one cell makes the car lighter and the voltage is reduced. If the gearing is kept about the same then everything should be fine BUT if the gearing is then raised by a couple of teeth (because you can.. lighter car etc) it's back to pretty much the same situation except now with a lower voltage the current draw has increased.
In theory if the 5 cell lap times are close to what they would be with 6 cells then the 'no free lunch' laws of physics (which as we all know can't be changed!) mean the overall energy requirement MUST be almost the same (allowing for car weight, changes in ESC/motor efficiency at the lower voltage etc) so this means the cells have to work harder. Higher electrical efficiency comes from a higher operating voltage, hence why the electricity distribution networks operate with high voltages. Higher currents are harder on ESC's and cells but as motors seem to be the weak link reducing the voltage by running 5 cells should be a benefit and mean motors have an easier life.
The end result is the cars won't be much slower and as has been mentioned they'll be faster through the corners (more nimble due to less weight) so depending on what you're trying to achieve, if it's slowing the cars down 5 cell is probably not the answer. If it won't slow the cars down by much, it's harder on cells and it may not encourage more people to race then what's the real benefits to outweigh the downside? interesting to know the answer! I'm not for or against 5 cell I just want to see more people racing. At our club I can see it might be easiest to have 5 cell and 6 cell racing together with their own separate weight limits, we'll have to see what the racers want to do.. the racers will decide!
I'm in favour of limiting the power in some way, technically it's possible but it's only ever considered as a last resort, do anything else but. Everyone wants to go as fast as they can, limiting is not seen as an option!!
Back to the thread topic, 5 cell 27-turn and 19-turn. Regarding the discussion about current draw etc it's pretty straight forward in theory, removing one cell makes the car lighter and the voltage is reduced. If the gearing is kept about the same then everything should be fine BUT if the gearing is then raised by a couple of teeth (because you can.. lighter car etc) it's back to pretty much the same situation except now with a lower voltage the current draw has increased.
In theory if the 5 cell lap times are close to what they would be with 6 cells then the 'no free lunch' laws of physics (which as we all know can't be changed!) mean the overall energy requirement MUST be almost the same (allowing for car weight, changes in ESC/motor efficiency at the lower voltage etc) so this means the cells have to work harder. Higher electrical efficiency comes from a higher operating voltage, hence why the electricity distribution networks operate with high voltages. Higher currents are harder on ESC's and cells but as motors seem to be the weak link reducing the voltage by running 5 cells should be a benefit and mean motors have an easier life.
The end result is the cars won't be much slower and as has been mentioned they'll be faster through the corners (more nimble due to less weight) so depending on what you're trying to achieve, if it's slowing the cars down 5 cell is probably not the answer. If it won't slow the cars down by much, it's harder on cells and it may not encourage more people to race then what's the real benefits to outweigh the downside? interesting to know the answer! I'm not for or against 5 cell I just want to see more people racing. At our club I can see it might be easiest to have 5 cell and 6 cell racing together with their own separate weight limits, we'll have to see what the racers want to do.. the racers will decide!
Originally Posted by Disaster
Some other interesting ones might be "throttle" or "horsepower" limits which could be programmed into the new electronic ESC's by limiting the maximum wattage delivered. Sure some motors would be more efficient...but this would still create an upper limit of power. This might allow "learner" classes or might separate the people that just want to go "ball to the wall"...crashing over and over, from those that want to go slower and concentrate on their racing lines.
03-08-2007, 12:17 PM
#296
Tech Addict
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
The amount of money needed to go from having nothing to being able to race is quite high (£300+) unless you buy second hand.
03-08-2007, 12:28 PM
#297
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Spot on, there's one thing missing from your comparison with the Playstation - availability. Walking into the average model shop are you offered anything like the cars you race? And how many model shops are there compared to computer game shops? And in the model shop, how does anyone know where to race? (Gas RTR sales are booming because the cars can be run anywhere!) And how much advertising do model manufacturer's do compared to computer game companies?
I am in pursuit of the goal, and all this talk about LiPo, brushless, 4/5/6 cell, etc., etc. is taking you away from the goal, not towards it. RC is much, much more than electric TC, which is the electric class suffering right now. 12th is expanding, and so is Off-Road (certainly in the UK).
There has never been a long-term, successful lo-cost class ever, and you'll not invent it now by dreaming up classes racers aren't asking for.
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
Since 10 people cannot agree on one single thing we could do, in this thread, are you surprised that nothing gets done? I'm not. You'd do more good getting your cars out to a local school or college, and racing TC in a demo, than typing posts on here.
I am not against what you are saying, nor for it. I work inside an RC organising body and I try to understand why we are where we are. I don't think that anything is 'the future' at the moment, because unless TC get out there and promote your class, it simply doesn't have one. Forget the conversation about TC classes, go out and promote your sport - that's the goal.
I am in pursuit of the goal, and all this talk about LiPo, brushless, 4/5/6 cell, etc., etc. is taking you away from the goal, not towards it. RC is much, much more than electric TC, which is the electric class suffering right now. 12th is expanding, and so is Off-Road (certainly in the UK).
There has never been a long-term, successful lo-cost class ever, and you'll not invent it now by dreaming up classes racers aren't asking for.
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
Since 10 people cannot agree on one single thing we could do, in this thread, are you surprised that nothing gets done? I'm not. You'd do more good getting your cars out to a local school or college, and racing TC in a demo, than typing posts on here.
I am not against what you are saying, nor for it. I work inside an RC organising body and I try to understand why we are where we are. I don't think that anything is 'the future' at the moment, because unless TC get out there and promote your class, it simply doesn't have one. Forget the conversation about TC classes, go out and promote your sport - that's the goal.
03-08-2007, 01:49 PM
#298
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Spot on, there's one thing missing from your comparison with the Playstation - availability. Walking into the average model shop are you offered anything like the cars you race? And how many model shops are there compared to computer game shops? And in the model shop, how does anyone know where to race? (Gas RTR sales are booming because the cars can be run anywhere!) And how much advertising do model manufacturer's do compared to computer game companies?
I am in pursuit of the goal, and all this talk about LiPo, brushless, 4/5/6 cell, etc., etc. is taking you away from the goal, not towards it. RC is much, much more than electric TC, which is the electric class suffering right now. 12th is expanding, and so is Off-Road (certainly in the UK).
There has never been a long-term, successful lo-cost class ever, and you'll not invent it now by dreaming up classes racers aren't asking for.
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
Since 10 people cannot agree on one single thing we could do, in this thread, are you surprised that nothing gets done? I'm not. You'd do more good getting your cars out to a local school or college, and racing TC in a demo, than typing posts on here.
I am not against what you are saying, nor for it. I work inside an RC organising body and I try to understand why we are where we are. I don't think that anything is 'the future' at the moment, because unless TC get out there and promote your class, it simply doesn't have one. Forget the conversation about TC classes, go out and promote your sport - that's the goal.
I am in pursuit of the goal, and all this talk about LiPo, brushless, 4/5/6 cell, etc., etc. is taking you away from the goal, not towards it. RC is much, much more than electric TC, which is the electric class suffering right now. 12th is expanding, and so is Off-Road (certainly in the UK).
There has never been a long-term, successful lo-cost class ever, and you'll not invent it now by dreaming up classes racers aren't asking for.
It is a very interesting conversation you 10 people (out of tens of thousands that race) are having, but nowhere does it include a beginner, who knows why they either stayed in RC, or left it, or went into another class, like gas Rallycross. Until that conversation is heard, this is a purely academic conversation.
Since 10 people cannot agree on one single thing we could do, in this thread, are you surprised that nothing gets done? I'm not. You'd do more good getting your cars out to a local school or college, and racing TC in a demo, than typing posts on here.
I am not against what you are saying, nor for it. I work inside an RC organising body and I try to understand why we are where we are. I don't think that anything is 'the future' at the moment, because unless TC get out there and promote your class, it simply doesn't have one. Forget the conversation about TC classes, go out and promote your sport - that's the goal.
I am the beginner...as far as racing goes. I one of the l people, the sport should be trying to attract.
I've spent years bashing around with different RC's...on road and offroad. Raced informally with friends. Bought my kids RC's...built them with them and raced with them.
I'm the guy who has read a bunch of RC magazines. I've spent a lot of time reading forum postings. I'm the guy that comes to the track occasionally and watches the guys work their setups and race.
I've came close to racing at the track but have lacked the time, or been turned off by things I've seen, and never taken it further.
Alternatively, I have raced in video games (lots of fun) and raced gokarts at a track ($20 bucks a race is still cheaper when you take into account the investment.)
Here were some of my turnoffs...and I'm sure other newbies have gone through the same thing as me.
1. Expensive batteries, chargers and maintenance that goes with them. Watching guys selling off batteries after a few cycles to get the next latest battery with slightly higher voltage.
2. Motors that require maintence, motor timing, brush replacements, comm lathes...etc.
3. Tires, tires, tires...soft this, hard that...replace after a race...
4. Parts braking as cars smack into the unforgiving plywood track walls. I've bashed for years with only braking a part here and there and was amazed to see one car taken out after another as they smacked the walls.
One of my solutions was to set up a home track with soft walls where I race with my kids and their friends. I built "spec" cars to be as equal as possible and we all had loads of fun.
Even that got to be a pain as the boys (and myself) would leave the batteries in various stages of discharge and invariably when you pulled them out a few months later one battery would be dead...another require cycling...brushes would start to go on a motor...etc.
As far as nitro goes, I've tried that too. It didn't really work out. There were two issues. First was the maintenance. The engine break-ins, constant engine tuning, rebuilding, having fresh fuel on hand etc. Second was the noise. In a small neighborhood the screaming nitro isn't a welcome sound.
The recent introduction of Lipos and brushless motors got me interested again. Here are cars we can drive, set aside and pull back out a year later and they are as ready to go then as the day we stored them.
Addressing the access to shops, and tracks I think that is more of the chicken/egg syndrome. There aren't enough people joining the sport to replace the ones that are leaving. Shops and tracks close. We just had a hobby shop close that was to my house close last month.
The web has helped some...but it is always better to have a brick and mortar.
I believe there can be an affordable, low maintenance, class of racing...and an affordable class above that one to move up to. If I knew I could buy this outfit or that, roll out on the track and race I'd be more inclined to do it.
In the meantime it is entertaining, albeit with the frustration of an outsider, to read the minutia of arguing going on about cell count and battery windings when the whole sport really needs a "swift kick in the pants" as my Dad used to say. Wake up and smell the Java! There is a whole population of people out there, that could be candidates for the next generation of racers but who are, like me, turned off by the huge cost of entry (in both time and money.)
03-08-2007, 03:15 PM
#299
Tech Fanatic
Thanks to the new drivers who have posted. It seems that they want to drive what they want to drive, and that the things that put them off are all TC related.
12th costs are limited by the quality of the driver - the best drivers always win, and not with the best kit.
Off-Road costs are limited by the grip available, which limits the power needed, thus the loads on batteries and the motors.
The TC issue is not power, it is unlimited energy. The comparison with power limits in full-size racing is spurious. What we are having is an increase in energy we can use - it's like F1 cars suddenly running on nitro instead of pump fuel. That's what causes all the problems, not the number of cells. If you simply returned to 3300 cells, your main problems would go away, and you'd attract some of the posters above. 12th and Off-Road can't use all that energy, so they remain attractive, and are on the up.
I used to race Tamiya Minis too, and they are great. I'm glad to see that they are still alive and kicking, and that you seem to have a great bunch of guys to race with. I think the best things I have had from RC are the friends I have made - I certainly remember them longer than the races I raced.
So, knock yourselves out with your 5 cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, LiPos, whatever. It's not going to get you one more racer because you are trying to improve the wrong thing. We can't un-invent things, but a return to 3300 cells would do far more good than anything else you can name.
12th costs are limited by the quality of the driver - the best drivers always win, and not with the best kit.
Off-Road costs are limited by the grip available, which limits the power needed, thus the loads on batteries and the motors.
The TC issue is not power, it is unlimited energy. The comparison with power limits in full-size racing is spurious. What we are having is an increase in energy we can use - it's like F1 cars suddenly running on nitro instead of pump fuel. That's what causes all the problems, not the number of cells. If you simply returned to 3300 cells, your main problems would go away, and you'd attract some of the posters above. 12th and Off-Road can't use all that energy, so they remain attractive, and are on the up.
I used to race Tamiya Minis too, and they are great. I'm glad to see that they are still alive and kicking, and that you seem to have a great bunch of guys to race with. I think the best things I have had from RC are the friends I have made - I certainly remember them longer than the races I raced.
So, knock yourselves out with your 5 cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, LiPos, whatever. It's not going to get you one more racer because you are trying to improve the wrong thing. We can't un-invent things, but a return to 3300 cells would do far more good than anything else you can name.
03-08-2007, 04:22 PM
#300
sorry
obsolete tech will never improve our racing....
old tech
is expensive
and
more complicated
not all that "slower" either...
obsolete tech will never improve our racing....
old tech
is expensive
and
more complicated
not all that "slower" either...