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Originally Posted by SlowerOne
This is the problem with single-issue threads straying around - they just look at one single thing and not the whole picture.
The reason that EFRA and JMRCA have reduced the number of cells is the problems we have had with motors burning out, speedos thermalling and the cars being too fast for the tracks, and the drivers - in Modified. It has nothing to do with LiPo/NiMh lobbying. Drivers run more Mod in Europe than I understand is run in the US, hence a bigger problem. Recently, this has led to an upsurge in 19T and 27T entries. To make Mod less expensive, EFRA have reduced the number of cells to 5, and JMRCA to 4. However, 19T and 27T are still 6-cell. ROAR have not made any changes, as yet. Our biggest classes - 19T and 27T - are still using 6-cells, so how does anyone come to the conclusion that this is a NiMh battery company lobby? And since ROAR have not made a decision, this lobby certainly isn't working in the USA!! Any LiPo manufacturer can sell as many as they like to about 70% of the TC drivers - so why do the adverts never mention this, and why don't you lobby ROAR to get them made legal?? Looking at the situation overall, the concern must be that a new driver (certainly in Europe) can't buy in the shop what we race at the Club. Our best years of participation are wehn Tamiya had kits that looked like cars, in the shops, and they had a brushed motor and 6 cells. People are gravitating to Gas not because they are fed up with batteries and motors, but because they can buy them in the shops as RTRs, take them to a track, and race them. They look just like what everyone else is running, and everyone else helps them with advice, not buying recommendations!! So, the question remains - are GP4600s any good, and should we drive them? Guess what...guys are still burning up equipment but now they can't make it through a 5 minute race (in Japan it's been a major complaint). If these "Pros" racing mod couldn't figure out how to change their gearing to run cool enough to finish a race then they chose to destroy their equipment. It's always been a question of gearing and not batteries. As for lobbying ROAR...we have been. There was a thread here on this very site called 'ROAR to 4-cell' and it was visited by a many officials from ROAR including AdrianM (who I respect though don't always agree with) and it was a hard fought thread. Personally, I believe that thread is part of the reason a decision wasn't made this year on going to 4-5 cells and we got a lot of discussion on the future of LiPo. Through those discussions it was made pretty clear that the reason they wanted to make the change to 4-5 cells was strictly to keep LiPo out of the market. Every other reason they could come up with was quickly shot down. Tamiya still builds kits that look like cars and they still make some of the best stuff from beginner to all out pro. People are going to gas because of RTR??? Nope, there are still PLENTY of RTR electrics too. People are going to gas because they don't have to deal with ROAR and batteries are getting expensive and don't last. That and runtimes. Who enjoys buying that electric kit only to have it die every 5-6 minutes when you can get a nitro kit and when it's empty...quick shot of fuel and back at it. You can run all day...or until something breaks. |
When GP released the 4300 it was similar in capacity to the IB3800 with less voltage. We will have to wait and see what the 4600 is like but it's very easy for a company to print a higher mAH shrink and release a cell with lower capacity and then improve it as time goes on.
As far as reliability vs performance goes it's a trade off. The newer generation cells are 1 full milliohm lower in iR and .06 more in average voltage with and extra 1000 mAH compared to what we had 3 years ago. That is a big increase in performance. We have tested GP3700 and GP4300s and they have the same reliability issues as IB due to the lower IR and higher voltage. As far as Lipos go they are good for the people who want to play but for racing I fear that it will create allot of issues. I have been doing allot of research on Lipos and I know for a fact that they can improve this technology just like NiMH have been improving. So for racing you will need to buy the Lipo of the week or month so nothing will change except that it cost 100+ dollars for a high end Lipo pack. There is no perfect solution and racing will always cost money. As a racer you want the best possible equipment to go as fast as possible. |
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
When GP released the 4300 it was similar in capacity to the IB3800 with less voltage. We will have to wait and see what the 4600 is like but it's very easy for a company to print a higher mAH shrink and release a cell with lower capacity and then improve it as time goes on.
As far as reliability vs performance goes it's a trade off. The newer generation cells are 1 full milliohm lower in iR and .06 more in average voltage with and extra 1000 mAH compared to what we had 3 years ago. That is a big increase in performance. We have tested GP3700 and GP4300s and they have the same reliability issues as IB due to the lower IR and higher voltage. As far as Lipos go they are good for the people who want to play but for racing I fear that it will create allot of issues. I have been doing allot of research on Lipos and I know for a fact that they can improve this technology just like NiMH have been improving. So for racing you will need to buy the Lipo of the week or month so nothing will change except that it cost 100+ dollars for a high end Lipo pack. There is no perfect solution and racing will always cost money. As a racer you want the best possible equipment to go as fast as possible. Yeah Danny your right ... Nothing will change cept when they do release a more betta Li-Po it will still last 10 times longer than a NiMH... Thats why I now no longer purchase those expensive 4200Ib cells that do not last very long.... If you could just try to improve the longevity of the cells you already have, I may had consider continuing to race with them.... However , these 4200`s lifespan is short and makes using um more expensive than a Orion Li-Po 3200... I`v been racing as long as most ... Always in years past only considered using roar legal cells till now... so If I`m switching, you will have to reconsider the game and make longer lasting batterys in order to compete.... or well you know.... :deathstar |
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
...
... Recently, this has led to an upsurge in 19T and 27T entries. To make Mod less expensive, EFRA have reduced the number of cells to 5, and JMRCA to 4. However, 19T and 27T are still 6-cell. ROAR have not made any changes, as yet. ... Yes there are spec classes in Europe as well but those are not sanctioned by EFRA. People are talking about going 5 cell in those classes just to keep the batteries common with mod so the move up would be easier. I don't know the JMRCA rules but I guess their "stock" class uses 23T motors :confused: IFMAR has also only one electric TC class and that is also like ROAR mod. No spec 19 or stock class. |
Originally Posted by cvt01
I don't disagree with anyone of you guys but there is a little misinformation here: EFRA does not specifiy 19T and 27T classes. There is no approved motor list and nothing. (They used to have a recommendation for 17T spec but it is eliminated from the new rules) They only specify one class for electric and that has the similar specs what ROAR calls mod except now it is 5 cells.
Yes there are spec classes in Europe as well but those are not sanctioned by EFRA. People are talking about going 5 cell in those classes just to keep the batteries common with mod so the move up would be easier. I don't know the JMRCA rules but I guess their "stock" class uses 23T motors :confused: IFMAR has also only one electric TC class and that is also like ROAR mod. No spec 19 or stock class. |
what happened to the days i can stick my battery pack on a 15 min PROTECH charger and put a voltmeter to it...
http://i2.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/89/93/054d_1.JPG ... or the old days of using: http://i1.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/88/1f/b876_1.JPG maybe we should run "D" sized batteries for more mah :P You know, in the medical field they have sub-C with 5000mah and 6400mah... |
That's because those sanctioned events are all about the Best of the Best. That's the whole point of it. Nobody cares that much about a Busch champion, formula 3000 or whatever it is this year, indy lites, cotton bowl by xyz corp.. we only care about the big one. Those titles are only useful to a handful of marketeers.
Those who race because they like competition pick up a new pack every couple of months. Those who race just to get out of the house, what's it really matter? (what happened to the gentlemen's agreement?) Those who bash, this is not an issue. The lipo guys need to simma down. Most of your manufacturers or aftermarket guys will need to come out with springs for the lightened loads unless you guys plan to make even weights with sub-c's, other wise your car might start skipping across the corners and the heavy beast o nimhs will passing back by you on the inside.. (dont forget to balance those cells.. er or as the old school guys call it - equalise. same idea. make them close as possible in performance to get the most out of them. i'm sure somebody will come up with a way to 'match' them so you 'shouldn't' have to 'balance' them often..) There are a few months before anything is set in stone, and if you race competitively other than at JimBob's garage basement raceway 'n' tackle shop on the weekend, you'll be buying new cells no matter what. Nothing replaces the karma of fresh cells. I like to atleast get on the track with most of the top stuff so I know that its me and what I have done with the equipment and not the equipment itself that is the reason for my performance (or lack thereof.) |
Originally Posted by Mason
That's because those sanctioned events are all about the Best of the Best. That's the whole point of it. Nobody cares that much about a Busch champion, formula 3000 or whatever it is this year, indy lites, cotton bowl by xyz corp.. we only care about the big one. Those titles are only useful to a handful of marketeers.
Those who race because they like competition pick up a new pack every couple of months. Those who race just to get out of the house, what's it really matter? (what happened to the gentlemen's agreement?) Those who bash, this is not an issue. The lipo guys need to simma down. Most of your manufacturers or aftermarket guys will need to come out with springs for the lightened loads unless you guys plan to make even weights with sub-c's, other wise your car might start skipping across the corners and the heavy beast o nimhs will passing back by you on the inside.. (dont forget to balance those cells.. er or as the old school guys call it - equalise. same idea. make them close as possible in performance to get the most out of them. i'm sure somebody will come up with a way to 'match' them so you 'shouldn't' have to 'balance' them often..) There are a few months before anything is set in stone, and if you race competitively other than at JimBob's garage basement raceway 'n' tackle shop on the weekend, you'll be buying new cells no matter what. Nothing replaces the karma of fresh cells. I like to atleast get on the track with most of the top stuff so I know that its me and what I have done with the equipment and not the equipment itself that is the reason for my performance (or lack thereof.) |
Ignorance is bliss!! :)
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Lipo is the future? Maybe, still too early to tell. ROAR is only interested in the sponsored racer? Rules are only in place to keep LiPo out? Did we just walk into the 'Conspiracy Zone'?
Seriously, ROAR and all of the other sanctioning bodies are in place to create a set of rules that we can all race by so that when we hit the track, we are somewhat assured that we are on a level playing field. I don't for one minute believe that they are the puppet of any manufacturer. If they were, it would be Trinity, and we know that they have not been able to pull of that coup. No matter what we have, there will be some who find a way to engineer an advantage. LiPo will have matched or team batteries. Brushless will have special armatures or cans or unique programming for the speedo. It's just a fact of racing. A lot of people don't like the comparison between us and NASCAR, but take a look at the history. When NASCAR was formed, it was to enable all of the moonshiners to race against each other within a set of rules. It worked great until a few racers started pouring money into their programs and began discovering ways to increase performance. Then, to compete, everybody had to do it. Now, there isn't anything stock at all about Stock Car racing. It's all high-dollar race-specific engineering. R/C started the same way. Home built cars and generic parts. Then, along came kits, and everybody started running these cars. Later, someone found out you could hand-wind a motor and it was faster and more efficient. Another racer found that not all batteries were created equal, so they found a way to cycle and match them to find the cream of the crop. No technology is going to solve our problems, all it will do is change our problems. So, bring on the newer batteries. If they are good, we'll buy them, if not, they'll sit on the hobby store shelves. |
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Two completely different situations. Fuel tanks aren't getting bigger and therefore supplying more hp to the engine.
Originally Posted by sosidge
This is a thread about the GP4600. It's a NiMH cell. It exists whether you like it or not. I just want to hear from anyone that has seen these cells in real life.
http://www.modelling-news.com/2007/n...mb/49011gp.jpg |
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Originally Posted by fraz
Poor logic. We are getting more HP in nitro but the effect is quite the opposite of what happens with these advances in electric. Our mileage decreases. Rare are the days where you can make 5 minutes on a tank of fuel.
There were a few of them in Nuremburg http://www.modelling-news.com/2007/n...mb/49011gp.jpg |
I can't help but feel there are people in this thread that are the same people that would go into a Dell PC forum and tell people they are stupid for not buying a Mac...
:lol: |
average output 1.3v :eek:
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Originally Posted by tc3team
Is that green stuff legal? lol
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I can't help but feel there are people in this thread that are the same people that would go into a Dell PC forum and tell people they are stupid for not buying a Mac...
:lol: |
Are these 4600 physically bigger or heavier or both ???
they could be `old` 4300 with 4600 heat shrink who know`s :deathstar they night trying wind IB up to make another & another |
Looks like they are slightly larger and heavier from the samples sent to EFRA.
http://pasadena.directrouter.com/~ce...d=65&Itemid=25 |
Originally Posted by muahdib4
The only batteries that even need discussion are LiPo. The rest are simply dead and/or dieing.
Now to my question. Is there any release date for these cells? Thank you, Ronald |
Originally Posted by mooony
So why don't you open new thread on how great lipo is. I am happy for you that your lipo cells work for you and that you have spend your money in a wise way. Now please let me decide on how I want too spend my money and if I want to buy these batteries and what to have information on these cells, I certainly don't need to read all this trash on lipo which this thread is not about.
Now to my question. Is there any release date for these cells? Thank you, Ronald |
Word to your mother..
I love LiPos. |
Originally Posted by muahdib4
It's a thread on batteries right??? You want to compare the battery to others right??? Well, LiPo are other batteries right??? They are comparable right??? It's also a public forum right??? Ok then. :eek:
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After looking at the specs on the BRCA cell approval I will assume that GP is doing the same trick as they did when they released the 4300. This is to release a higher mAh shrink with the actual cells not being up to capacity and then improve it as time goes by. The cells they submitted weigh the same as the 4300s submitted but they give a 68/72 gram range on the spec sheet of the cell but cells submitted are 69 grams. This means they don't have the ability to make the capacity yet or they could be using a 1c rate to label this cell. A cell will have a higher capacity when discharged at a low amp rate like 4.6 amps.
For all you Lipo lovers I understand that they give you good results and that they seem like they will be the way of the future but this is not good for racing and can ruin electric racing. The reason I'm saying this is because I have been actively testing Lipos and I can see a difference in performance and changes being made frequently. I have tested packs from leading manufacturers and they range from 7.06 to 7.28 in average voltage and 12.0 to 8.6 in IR at 35amps. SMC is working closely with a manufacturer of Lipos and we have seen that they can improve there packs fairly frequently and once Lipos become legal for racing I'm pretty sure we can get the manufacturers to make special Lipos suited for racing with more power. This will most likely be at the expense of reliability and price but in the end racers will buy the best and most powerful Lipo pack so it will be the same issues as NiMH and probably worse. |
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
For all you Lipo lovers I understand that they give you good results and that they seem like they will be the way of the future but this is not good for racing and can ruin electric racing. The reason I'm saying this is because I have been actively testing Lipos and I can see a difference in performance and changes being made frequently. I have tested packs from leading manufacturers and they range from 7.06 to 7.28 in average voltage and 12.0 to 8.6 in IR at 35amps. SMC is working closely with a manufacturer of Lipos and we have seen that they can improve there packs fairly frequently and once Lipos become legal for racing I'm pretty sure we can get the manufacturers to make special Lipos suited for racing with more power. This will most likely be at the expense of reliability and price but in the end racers will buy the best and most powerful Lipo pack so it will be the same issues as NiMH and probably worse.
How long are the "good numbers" good on a nimh pack? A few cycles if you don't abuse them. How long is a nimh pack still good enough to be a "race" pack? Not very. How long are the numbers still good on a lipo pack? No one knows yet because they have only been using them for a COUPLE YEARS! How many packs do you need when racing with lipos? Two per car MAX and you can get away with one because they don't need to be peaked to deliver good power. How many discharge trays do you need to own when racing with lipos? NONE! Yes of course they will get better-IT'S TECHNOLOGY-and progress marches on.Sub-C nimh batteries (and brushed 540 motors) have been pushed to the edge of their potential and have become fragile,disposeable,junk.Lipo and brushless are at the beginning of their development curve and it's going to be a LONG time before your "doomsday" predicition has any chance of becoming reality.These new advances are making this HOBBY what it should be for those of us out here in the "real world" (weekly club racers that do this for FUN and never go to the "big" races). A stupid little toy car that we race for the fun of it should'nt have the maintenence cycle of a top fuel car like they do now with the old tech. I can safely say that I speak for a lot of people when I say "I've had enough and I'm just not going to take it any more". If I can't run brushless and lipo-I won't race.Period!It's too late-the genie's out of the bottle-we've seen Paree-we've lost our virginity and know what we've been missing. It's the future-it's the reality you have to deal with.Accept it,adapt to it,and survive-or go the way of the dodo,the nightsoilman,and the ice house.You're not going to make any friends,or earn any respect,trying to scare people off with BS about how it will be worse than it is now.It can't be! And don't forget that .001 volt only makes a difference to those running stock and 19 turn at very high levels of competition and very high levels of traction.What about all of us running mod on the dirt? Right now local tracks are in the process of allowing lipos.A year from now they will be in the process of REQUIRING lipos-because nimh's leave the door wide open to poor sportsmanship. |
[QUOTE=McSmooth]Two completely different situations. Fuel tanks aren't getting bigger and therefore supplying more hp to the engine.
So how in the name or the R/C god does more fuel capacity equal more horsepower again? :confused: :confused: |
Trust me we will adapt to any change in technology and will start matching and assembling Lipo cells if need be. We will also have the best possible Lipos built for racing so I don't really care as we will offer and sell whatever is needed for racing. I just know that racers will get very upset when they show up at races and there is a new specially made for racing Lipo or that team guys have special packs that give them an edge. You may think this is a scare tactic but it's the truth.
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
Trust me we will adapt to any change in technology and will start matching and assembling Lipo cells if need be. We will also have the best possible Lipos built for racing so I don't really care as we will offer and sell whatever is needed for racing. I just know that racers will get very upset when they show up at races and there is a new specially made for racing Lipo or that team guys have special packs that give them an edge. You may think this is a scare tactic but it's the truth.
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
I have tested packs from leading manufacturers and they range from 7.06 to 7.28 in average voltage and 12.0 to 8.6 in IR at 35amps.
This actually works out pretty sweet for the new guys, as the guys that have been playing with li-po and using them (the early adoptors) are going to be down in voltage, pretty substantially, and have higher IR's now that the new stuff is coming out with lower IR's. I'll have a pretty good edge. . |
I just got some new samples in this week so I may have something even better for you. I will gladly send you a pack but the current packs we have are long as they are not made to fit in cars. We are working on getting them to fit cars so expect SMC High Performance Lipos soon. :)
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
I just got some new samples in this week so I may have something even better for you. I will gladly send you a pack but the current packs we have are long as they are not made to fit in cars. We are working on getting them to fit cars so expect SMC High Performance Lipos soon. :)
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Any chance of there being lipo's for 12th scale?
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Okay, I also have already posted my view about LiPo vs. NiMh. However as Sosidge said this is about the GP4600 cells. I myself happened on this thread because I was looking for a way to discharge my IB4200s quickly and properly in between heats.
I was somewhat hopeful of the new GPs so that I may go back to discharging packs on my 0-30 discharger. Battery maintenance with GPs is much easier to deal with than what is involved with the IBs. IMHO if it weren't for the IBs, people would have been happy with the simplicity and durability of the GP cells such that LiPo wouldn't be as attractive as it is now. I myself am one of those, as posted by someone else here, who race for the sake to get out of the house and be among guys with similar interests in cars. There are many guys at my local track who are very fast. Fast so much so that it is more than just good driving and set-up. ;) Of course to keep up I would have to run similar equipment which is whole list of pit equipment necessary to "trick" more speed into a brushed stock motor with NiMh cells. While I'm able to afford the extra gear, the thought of "working" this extra gear seems to take all the fun out of running RC cars. :o So if the GP4600s have better voltage and capacity than the IBs it would have been a great battery then. :rolleyes: Its just that it has come a little too late to prolong the usefullness of NiMh for RC. :( |
YR4Dude the IB4200s aren't harder to maintain than GP cells. I use a 0-30 tray on my 4200s. You keep them stored with 600-700 seconds of charge at 6 amps and then when you show up at the track discharge them down to .90 per cell on T35 or something similar then tray them down until all the lights go off on the 0-30 then start charging the pack.
If GP4600s have high voltage and low IR they will most likely react like IB cells. The GP3700s and GP4300s react similarly to IB cells. It's just the way this newer technology reacts. |
I dont know whether it has been mentioned or not but according to GP
"For the new 4300, it is with higher MPV of >/= 1.23V. And the 4600 is merely of higher capacity of 4600mAh (typical) with MPV >/= 1.20V" This seems to indicate that the 4600 will not have the higher voltage and maybe not as susceptible to self discharge as the other brands I will have some of these cells for racing at the TITC in Thailand in late February. I will let you know the results of matching these cells next week |
cannon back at ya
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Now this worths talking about: http://www.gpbatteries.com.hk/html/techinfo/LithPly.asp
:smile: :smile: :smile: :) :lol: :lol: ;) :nod: |
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
I just got some new samples in this week so I may have something even better for you. I will gladly send you a pack but the current packs we have are long as they are not made to fit in cars. We are working on getting them to fit cars so expect SMC High Performance Lipos soon. :)
Let me know as soon as you have some ready to go! I would love to test some for you out here!!! Art |
Danny,
No question this is gonna happen eventually but the virtually maintennance free design and the longer lifetime still make LiPo appealing. |
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