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Old 05-06-2006, 07:46 PM   #151
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This is a great discussion.
I believe that if we have the technology to go that fast then why not? Most entry level drivers are mostly interested in speed. Alot of people ask "How fast does your car go?", so the faster they go the more might get involved.
Also, just like what Tebo did during the off-road Worlds in Italy, he only ran 5cells because he to much power for the low traction levels. So running 4cells can help with your car handling wise. This also puts less weight the motor has to pull.
Plus in Japan most of their tracks are fast flowing (correct me if Im wrong) so it takes less amperage to stay at a constant speed, compared to us in the US where our tracks are real technical, which doesnt allow us to use 4cells because we're always on the gas and brakes every other turn.
Modified is a whole new style of racing compared to stock. This class is really for experienced drivers, thats why alot of factory drivers race it, and because it gives their sponsors more exposure as well.
Just my $.02.

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Old 05-08-2006, 02:29 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
you find the top 10- 15 drivers do this muti skimming & brushing stuff
guy`s below just want to race & have ago
Sadly,this is how a lot of stock 27 racing is these days. Whoever has the most money for new motors,comm lathes (and costly diamond cutting tips to go with them) has the edge over the driver without. If they are sponsored by companys who have these items under their name then they might as well just turn up at race day and demand the championship trophy if their skill is top class.

Was this heard of when we had sealed can motors? Pretty much,no. Was the racing just as fast when we all used sealed can motors? Pretty much no again.

Stock 27 racing now is just a joke. The only "restriction" these motors seemingly have is no ballraces. Just gear the latest co27s to the moon and youre guaranteed a quick lap if its an open track.

Motors are just as consumable as a set of tyres a heat or final thesedays. Wheres the fun in all this to be at the top of stock class? Stock class is almost just as expensive as modified now,apart from the price of the motor,and MAYBE some better cells. Hardly cheaper for a "stock" level race is it?

I dont race in stock 19,but i'm pretty sure its the same, the sky is the limit when it comes to costs. And it usually helps.

I think a lot of drivers would be up in arms if they heard the words "sealed can,4 cell" in one sentance for their next race meeting.... I think that says a lot about what "should" be happening

Look at F1. The engine size has been reduced in order to cut speeds. At least this sport has taken the initiative to do SOMETHING about the speed of their cars.

Look at WRC - Limited to 300bhp, due to the Audi Quattros etc 5/600 odd bhp in the 80's (and the safety issues which ultimately led to the death of some drivers) Sure 300bhp is still one immense amount of power but again,they have realised its just unsafe.

Fact is,safety in r/c isnt as looked into as much as full size racing,but the speed is virtually untamed and scale speeds are in a word,immense.

Fact is,something over the years has made stock 27 racing get into dizzy heights of speed and not so much as skill.

Im putting it down to the cells and the motors and one,or both need capping,somehow. No answer seems to get the speeds to sensible levels without a knock on effect.

Everyone wanted speed and technology 5 or so years ago. now we have it and its outstretched many peoples cost,technical ability of using a comm lathe or desire to fund such level of racing...

As a racer with 11 years of skill behind me im beginning to wonder if the cost of r/c is something i'm prepared to stay with for much longer than a season or two if the price is going to be the governing factor to it all maybe i'll just take up chess or something
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Old 05-08-2006, 03:48 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
Stock 27 racing now is just a joke. The only "restriction" these motors seemingly have is no ballraces. Just gear the latest co27s to the moon and youre guaranteed a quick lap if its an open track.

Motors are just as consumable as a set of tyres a heat or final thesedays. Wheres the fun in all this to be at the top of stock class? Stock class is almost just as expensive as modified now,apart from the price of the motor,and MAYBE some better cells. Hardly cheaper for a "stock" level race is it?


:
i still see 27t being a good class ,but it`s not when you have top racers hogging the limelight every year
either split the class(again) or push top 10-15 into spec 19t ,which will be the new `27t` class for outdoors, which is what BRCA are aiming to do
there is a brca officer trying to push this in this years AGM ,
1 reason is `it`s the least supported class this year` so we have just 19t & mod class
they might introduce a 4 cell/12t class to get it going

then again i can see 27t class going out with all the arguments & finger pointing it produces

the other thing is these rule`s are made for top 20 drivers to keep it a even playing field or happy coz they went to the AGM but 80% of small club`s don`t give a toss really . racers just want to race not take up politic`s about the right`s & wrongs of the BRCA rule`s

there are some guy`s at tolwoth slrcc are very adament that 4 cell is going to happen (do they no something i don`t ), no one ever talks the truth anymore over ,there is allway`s a agenda for there own good why some thing happens, then when `you` question it ,it goes pear shape cos they start to lie for there own good
guy`s at the `top` think it`s a proffesion ,when it is a just a `HOBBY` to 70% of us they pay good money to race
Members should be allowed to vote online & made accessable to `ALL` members not just the select few that they have controll over or biased
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Old 05-08-2006, 03:58 AM   #154
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Formula 1 has engine reduction....

However they have almost clawed back the time lost....

As for RC, we can slowing claw back to the speed using 6 cells...One day....
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:15 AM   #155
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My answer to the 27t class?


Let mabuchi redesign their 540 for a bit more speed,or use a sport tuned,sealed motor but keep the costs down,to 15ish max retail. Anything that is sealed.

Theres a lot to be learnt about the design of brushless motors....

Sure,a lot of business would be lost in the tuned 27 motors,but id rather see a controlled motor which cannot be tampered with easily then 1,00000001 different openable stock motors that get thrown away after a few skims.
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:18 AM   #156
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@tc3team
do you think we are trying make this `hobby` some thing into it can`t be a proffesion
maybe it is just a hobby & that`s it ,it can`t be anything else
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:27 AM   #157
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It's a mistake to assume that a sealed can motor cannot be tampered with.

In fact, there are tricks out there to advance the timing etc. which are impossible to detect from the outside.

The benefit of a rebuildable motor is that is can be easily scrutineered, and easily maintained.

Sealed can motors can't be scrutineered and can't be maintained.
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Old 05-08-2006, 05:32 AM   #158
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There will never be a right or wrong answer to this topic, my idea will only ever be a suggestion to cure it, there are flaws in any idea.
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Old 05-08-2006, 06:03 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
It's a mistake to assume that a sealed can motor cannot be tampered with.

In fact, there are tricks out there to advance the timing etc. which are impossible to detect from the outside.

The benefit of a rebuildable motor is that is can be easily scrutineered, and easily maintained.

Sealed can motors can't be scrutineered and can't be maintained.
There was a guy at my local track that was running a Mabuchi motor and was easily keeping up with the rest of the stocks. It still comes down to tuning and driving.
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Old 05-08-2006, 09:28 AM   #160
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Would be no need for seal can`s & slower motor`s if we had a ranking system for the experience racer`s....


Stock then could become more attractive to the newer racer`s ...
Something thats not happening now days ...


Surprise that hardly no one in the USA wants to be promoted to a advance class .
They just want to win & race stock forever ...
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:16 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Surprise that hardly no one in the USA wants to be promoted to a advance class .
They just want to win & race stock forever ...
The problem with advanced stock drivers lies in the fact that modified racing is hard on the equipment. Since most really good drivers are still funding most of their parts and maintaining their equipment themselves, it takes both lots of time and money to replace all the worn drive components in order to be compeitive in the modified class.

There is a local-ish driver to me that is well known through-out the RC community as a very good and dominating stock class driver. He basically said that unless someone decides to pick-up his tab for going full modified, it is not worth the hassle, time and money. It's not just the stock class that costs money.

Here is the deal, all racing costs money. There is nothing that will keep the costs of racing down. The F1 teams last year were spending more money building engines for the 'engine must last two races' rule. Because it is harder to find/make components that will last both races. Gauranteed that they are spending twice as much this year as last year on engines, V8 engines never get smooth the higher they go in the rpm range, therefore the components are more likely to rattle themselves apart. The cars are going just about as fast this year as they were last year. And some of the teams are getting ready to 'turn up the wick' another notch at Catalunya.

People will spend the money to keep competitive in any class of racing. That is the nature of racing. If you limit what people can do, someone will work their way around the rules to find a solution. Keep 6 cells and open stock 27 turn motors. I'm game.
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:49 PM   #162
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this is why i made the suggestion earlier: we have three (3) classes of touring car racing now. mod, 19t, and stock...restrict the number of entries to one class per racer,( at the nationals) and prohibit the stock drivers who have ever made it into the "a" main from running stock again. per the rules, they may only race in the 19t class, or the mod class, and let new blood take the podiums at a nationals race. i think this would open the nationals to more racers, who would know going in that they wouldnt have to compete against the "pro" drivers who get free or discounted cars, motors, and batteries.... it would really open the playing field.
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:23 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdcopbdcop
this is why i made the suggestion earlier: we have three (3) classes of touring car racing now. mod, 19t, and stock...restrict the number of entries to one class per racer,( at the nationals) and prohibit the stock drivers who have ever made it into the "a" main from running stock again. per the rules, they may only race in the 19t class, or the mod class, and let new blood take the podiums at a nationals race. i think this would open the nationals to more racers, who would know going in that they wouldnt have to compete against the "pro" drivers who get free or discounted cars, motors, and batteries.... it would really open the playing field.
I agree with what you are saying here... but I would like to know what you think of at club and/or regional level (not national), limit the voltage by class also (this was said by EA above in this posting).

So at the club level, you would have novice (stock running at say 5.5 volts), Stock (stock as you know today, running at say 7 volts), 19T (19T as you know it today, no limit on volts) and Mod (no limits as today). Or some thing like this... (I'm not an expert with Batteries so my Volts limits may not be in the ball park.) I know in our case here locally, 19T Spec is not a class that anyone runs, they may use a 19T motor in mod class, but we do not have a 19T spec class. So at a our club level you would add one class for the newbie. What gets you moved out of the novice class is the number of laps in a race. In our case the fast guys do 25 to 26 laps, so novice should be moving up after they hit 22 laps. At a national, sorry no novice class, I would run it like today Stock, 19T and Mod (I still think that Stock should have the limit on the volts, but that is me...)
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:33 AM   #164
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People shouldn't confuse Stock with rookie drivers. Stock is the motor speed, not the skill level. For skill levels, we have the "Sportsman" and "Intermediate" classes.

I like stock class racing because it's the least expensive. (Still very expensive however) Stock allows the motors to last a little longer in between cuts, and keeps the tire wear down a little bit more. I for one, would not like to be kicked out of a stock class just because I was a good driver.
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:57 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
People shouldn't confuse Stock with rookie drivers. Stock is the motor speed, not the skill level. For skill levels, we have the "Sportsman" and "Intermediate" classes.

I like stock class racing because it's the least expensive. (Still very expensive however) Stock allows the motors to last a little longer in between cuts, and keeps the tire wear down a little bit more. I for one, would not like to be kicked out of a stock class just because I was a good driver.
Understand your point, but Stock is where the novice gets bumped up to after they have progress & gain some skill...

problem is they now have to compete against racer`s who been running the class forever dominating it with experience & better equipment..

These newer stock racer`s only try for awhile before giving up ...

This fact is killing the Sedan class, no new blood means no more Sedan racing..

So its not just a slower motor speed class is it ?

Its the life of the sport you love....
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