Raceday & practicing - Q&A
10-08-2015, 06:20 PM
#16
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
I understand socket. I play a Cricket, a crazy English game most similar to baseball for those from the US. It is played on rolled grass pitches & after 20 years experience I can just look at the track and know what adjustments to make.
I love the technical side of car racing and think I'm a pretty good driver for my experience. I can keep up with guys who have done it for a little while. So I'll have a look at the camber tuning forum. I looked at it previously it seemed a lot of people disagreed with it from memory. So I passed it by.
I assume I should get my motor timing & gearing right first. Then move onto car setup. If at a new track, do you agree?
The more I drive the better I'll manage this stuff. Thanks.
I love the technical side of car racing and think I'm a pretty good driver for my experience. I can keep up with guys who have done it for a little while. So I'll have a look at the camber tuning forum. I looked at it previously it seemed a lot of people disagreed with it from memory. So I passed it by.
I assume I should get my motor timing & gearing right first. Then move onto car setup. If at a new track, do you agree?
The more I drive the better I'll manage this stuff. Thanks.
10-09-2015, 11:57 AM
#17
I understand socket. I play a Cricket, a crazy English game most similar to baseball for those from the US. It is played on rolled grass pitches & after 20 years experience I can just look at the track and know what adjustments to make.
I love the technical side of car racing and think I'm a pretty good driver for my experience. I can keep up with guys who have done it for a little while. So I'll have a look at the camber tuning forum. I looked at it previously it seemed a lot of people disagreed with it from memory. So I passed it by.
I assume I should get my motor timing & gearing right first. Then move onto car setup. If at a new track, do you agree?
The more I drive the better I'll manage this stuff. Thanks.
I love the technical side of car racing and think I'm a pretty good driver for my experience. I can keep up with guys who have done it for a little while. So I'll have a look at the camber tuning forum. I looked at it previously it seemed a lot of people disagreed with it from memory. So I passed it by.
I assume I should get my motor timing & gearing right first. Then move onto car setup. If at a new track, do you agree?
The more I drive the better I'll manage this stuff. Thanks.
10-09-2015, 05:18 PM
#18
Tech Apprentice
I've only gone through the process once so far, but am currently trying it again since I recently changed my weight distribution. We'll see how it goes this time, but I have my fingers crossed the results will be just as good.
10-14-2015, 03:14 AM
#19
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
Thanks jflow - yep I need to drive as much as I can reasonably fit in. In fact had a couple of drives on the weekend. It was bloody fun. Getting better.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts In regards to radio settings. I don't even know where to start. I've got my sub trim sorted, steering travel. I don't know what I would play with. Steering/dual rates, expos, throttle travel where do I start. Is it really a personal preference do you think or are there good general rules applying to most. Opinions requested! Out of interest do the pros use expo on throttle and/or steering.
I'm into acquiring knowledge from those who are in the know. And your advice lines up with what I've gathered so far.
Here's what I've got in order to experiment and importance.
1) tyres - crucial. I've got a basic range of tyres to play with and a basic understanding of what to use when. Not interested in tyre sauce or the like. Seems excessive & hope somehow it can be stopped.
2) weight distribution - I'll test different battery positions and ballast to see how it effects how the car drives.
3) springs - to test as well.
4) shock oils / Pistons - this one seems a bit daunting. I'm not the best at building shocks. Experimenting with these may feel like hard work.
5) car geometry - I have a few setups I stick to for different conditions. From Ray Munday - http://www.rctech.net/forum/attachments/australian-racing/1276404d1425727809-ask-ray-munday-jconcepts-novak-associated-aussie-support-thread-b5m-setups-ray-munday-201503.pdf
The rest is a ways down the track. ESC settings, wings, etc. The practice advice from tmail55 looks great and thanks to wittyname, mudcat, slalom1, ericw, Jbrow and my old mate socket.
I will read tuning with camber links 1 day. However, after reading the following post by Ray Munday (top 40 2wd in worlds last week, top 50 4wd also works in 1:1 scale car industry). I'll test Fredswains method later and see if I can get something out of it. Due to Ray's advice it moves down the list though.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts In regards to radio settings. I don't even know where to start. I've got my sub trim sorted, steering travel. I don't know what I would play with. Steering/dual rates, expos, throttle travel where do I start. Is it really a personal preference do you think or are there good general rules applying to most. Opinions requested! Out of interest do the pros use expo on throttle and/or steering.
I'm into acquiring knowledge from those who are in the know. And your advice lines up with what I've gathered so far.
Here's what I've got in order to experiment and importance.
1) tyres - crucial. I've got a basic range of tyres to play with and a basic understanding of what to use when. Not interested in tyre sauce or the like. Seems excessive & hope somehow it can be stopped.
2) weight distribution - I'll test different battery positions and ballast to see how it effects how the car drives.
3) springs - to test as well.
4) shock oils / Pistons - this one seems a bit daunting. I'm not the best at building shocks. Experimenting with these may feel like hard work.
5) car geometry - I have a few setups I stick to for different conditions. From Ray Munday - http://www.rctech.net/forum/attachments/australian-racing/1276404d1425727809-ask-ray-munday-jconcepts-novak-associated-aussie-support-thread-b5m-setups-ray-munday-201503.pdf
The rest is a ways down the track. ESC settings, wings, etc. The practice advice from tmail55 looks great and thanks to wittyname, mudcat, slalom1, ericw, Jbrow and my old mate socket.
I will read tuning with camber links 1 day. However, after reading the following post by Ray Munday (top 40 2wd in worlds last week, top 50 4wd also works in 1:1 scale car industry). I'll test Fredswains method later and see if I can get something out of it. Due to Ray's advice it moves down the list though.
Extract from ask Ray Munday forum
"Im familiar with the 'tuning with camber links' thread by Fredswain. The theory of balancing sprung natural frequency front and rear is good for relatively underdamped vehicles (such as road vehicles) where you want the front and rear to move in phase with each other. (you actually tune the rear to be about 10% faster than the front, so that it 'catches up' to the front over bumps as the front always hits bumps first). However our rc cars are very heavily damped so I dont think it is the most appropriate method.
What is much more important with spring balancing is to get the weight transfer correct during cornering. The springs control how much weight transfer is taken from front to rear (stiffer at front gives understeer, stiffer at rear gives oversteer). Softer springs promote slower weight transfer but larger roll movement. You are trying to balance the rate of weight transfer with the corner itself so the car responds correctly through the corners.
The movement of the car over bumps is controlled much more strongly by the level of damping you have. Damping is especially important over the larger jumps to control bottoming.
On the setup sheets I put together, I have highlighted the adjustments I have found most sensitive on that particular car.
I hope that this answers your questions. Its a very dfficult subject to describe briefly, but please keep asking away. My apologies for the slow reply.
Ray"
"Im familiar with the 'tuning with camber links' thread by Fredswain. The theory of balancing sprung natural frequency front and rear is good for relatively underdamped vehicles (such as road vehicles) where you want the front and rear to move in phase with each other. (you actually tune the rear to be about 10% faster than the front, so that it 'catches up' to the front over bumps as the front always hits bumps first). However our rc cars are very heavily damped so I dont think it is the most appropriate method.
What is much more important with spring balancing is to get the weight transfer correct during cornering. The springs control how much weight transfer is taken from front to rear (stiffer at front gives understeer, stiffer at rear gives oversteer). Softer springs promote slower weight transfer but larger roll movement. You are trying to balance the rate of weight transfer with the corner itself so the car responds correctly through the corners.
The movement of the car over bumps is controlled much more strongly by the level of damping you have. Damping is especially important over the larger jumps to control bottoming.
On the setup sheets I put together, I have highlighted the adjustments I have found most sensitive on that particular car.
I hope that this answers your questions. Its a very dfficult subject to describe briefly, but please keep asking away. My apologies for the slow reply.
Ray"
10-14-2015, 04:58 AM
#20
In the past I've never used expo or anything like that. This year I started using some expo in my steering and it seems to make things less twitchy for me. I still use my throttle/brake as 100% natural or however you would describe it, I want it to do what I want with no hesitation. I like to tape the grip of my pistol so it feels as cofortable as I can make it. I also like to tape around the brake part of the trigger so my finger is rather tight in the trigger, I don't like it when there's 1/4" of air space between the front of my finger and the brake part of the trigger. Getting the wheel tension on your radio just right helps a lot too. When I grab an rtr radio, the things have such easy to turn wheels I can barely drive the car!
I find myself always running a softer setup than most. Usually one spring lighter and at least 5 wt lighter oil or same and bigger pistons. I just find what works for me and stick with it, generally only having to change things such as battery or wheelbase depending on the track. When I try to drive a setup from a pro, it's usually to twitchy for me going into the corners. I like a slower reacting car, easier and more fun to drive for me.
One of the big things to learn is driving around other cars. It's one thing to turn consistent laps practicing by yourself, but completely different when your in a race with other cars and getting nervous. That's where the wheeltime comes into play. Just being comfortable with your car, knowing you've put the laps in and this is just another five minutes helps a lot. If you don't get the wheeltime, then the setup is really kind of moot if you get nervous or too much adrenaline and your hands and eyes stop working together efficiently and you start driving point and shoot, square corners, rubbing tubes, etc.
I really find practicing for ten minute runs at a time, (or more!) really help keep me calm in races. Just know when you start doing that, you need to keep your motor clean and lubed, and keep your diff fresh too. Along with the added wheel you end up becoming an efficient wrench on your ride
This is worth a read too. Probably stuff you already know, but it's a good writeup: http://www.rccaraction.com/blog/2013...teering-setup/
I find myself always running a softer setup than most. Usually one spring lighter and at least 5 wt lighter oil or same and bigger pistons. I just find what works for me and stick with it, generally only having to change things such as battery or wheelbase depending on the track. When I try to drive a setup from a pro, it's usually to twitchy for me going into the corners. I like a slower reacting car, easier and more fun to drive for me.
One of the big things to learn is driving around other cars. It's one thing to turn consistent laps practicing by yourself, but completely different when your in a race with other cars and getting nervous. That's where the wheeltime comes into play. Just being comfortable with your car, knowing you've put the laps in and this is just another five minutes helps a lot. If you don't get the wheeltime, then the setup is really kind of moot if you get nervous or too much adrenaline and your hands and eyes stop working together efficiently and you start driving point and shoot, square corners, rubbing tubes, etc.
I really find practicing for ten minute runs at a time, (or more!) really help keep me calm in races. Just know when you start doing that, you need to keep your motor clean and lubed, and keep your diff fresh too. Along with the added wheel you end up becoming an efficient wrench on your ride
This is worth a read too. Probably stuff you already know, but it's a good writeup: http://www.rccaraction.com/blog/2013...teering-setup/
Last edited by jbrow1; 10-14-2015 at 05:24 AM.
10-14-2015, 07:09 AM
#21
Interesting topic:
For what it's worth, I'll add in what I got or usually do.
Practice:
I always try to practice with purpose. Wether that be for learning a new track or layout, braking in tires, testing a setup change, checking gearing if running stock, checking run times, run as close to race pace without crashing, try different lines in the jump sections or other sections, or what ever. While it's true that wheel time will help, turning laps just to turn laps isn't always best. In my mind there's nothing worse than turning laps with a bad setup or on the wrong tires just to do so when in all likelyhood, once you have the right tires and/or a good setup, the car or truck will feel and react very differently. So if possible, try to practice with purpose.
Always try to have a pretty basic general setup to start with and that works for you and the tracks you may run at. Doesn't have to be 100% spot on right out of the gate, just needs to be close and comfortable to drive. Nothing worse than chasing a setup all day. For me, I like my setups to be easy to drive for me and to ideally need only little changes to get it more dialed in. In some cases only needing a change of tires or a slight shock package change. Admittedly, it doesn't always work out but that's my intent. I don't always make the changes I should, in part simply because I'm lazy at times. Kind of the old, "if it ain't t broke, don't fix it" type thing. Lol.
My radio and ESC settings stay pretty tame compared to a lot for racers I race with. Again in part because of my being a bit lazy, it also so I don't have headaches trying to figure all that out along with everything else that might need to be factored in. So little to no boost or turbo for me. With all the tuning possibilities in ESC's these days, I tend to shy away from playing around too much and run the risk on inadvertently tuning myself right out of a motor or ESC. It's a safe thing to do for sure, though not always the fastest. Radio wise, it try to keep a similar thing going there along the lines of the ESC settings. Nothing too crazy. Once I get the radio dialed in, I tend to leave it alone and only sometimes make a change to the brake EPA. I know some that like to change the dual rate settings pretty often, but for me, I don't bother. Same goes for the expo on the steering. I know some that use it a lot, though I don't always feel it's needed in off-road. Onroad racers do tend to use that function on their steering more often though. In off-road, I don't think most of the top racers use it, unless it's in 1/8th Nitro and then it seems to be used only for the throttle/brake side. The use of expo is probably more of a preference thing.
For local racing, I don't do a lot of pre-race things. Usually I might check the ride height and camber settings once a day. That is unless I've made a more significant setup change to took a pretty hard crash and things don't feel right after. If at an out of town race or bigger race event I'll check things a little more as I'm likely making more changes than I normally would. Specifically if I'm running a lot of different tires either in different sizes (2.2 or 2.4) or different tire Mfg.s as there can be a pretty big difference in tire heights that could change the ride height enough to make a big difference. Wether it's a fresh layout at the local track or going to an out of town track with a new layout or a track I haven't been to, it never hurts to take a stroll out on the track if possible. There you'll be able to see things that you might not be able to from the stand. At the very least, if allowed, get up on the stand and take a good look around.
If I'm up on the stand taking a look at the layout I'll try to visualize my car on the layout and try to get a mental idea of where I want my car to be going around the track. I'll also try to look at the track from a few different places on the stand to see if there's a line of sight issue anywhere. They do sometimes happen and if you haven't at least stood in that spot or part of the stand, it could throw you a mental curveball you maybe weren't expecting. You can do the same thing once you get to drive on the layout as well. You'd be surprised at how different a layout can feel just be going from one of the stand to the other. Plus if everyone wants to all stand more towards one end of the stand and you didn't get up there in time or didn't qualify high enough to pick the exact spot you want, you be ready to tackle the layout from anywhere on the stand.
When it comes to my general pit setup, I'll setup my pit area the exact same way every time at every track for the most part. That way I know exactly where everything is when I need it. To the point I can tell if something is missing just by looking. A bit OCD probably, but it works for me and is a consistent way of doing things that just give that little piece of mind to where I'm not thinking about where I put stuff or have to find stuff in a hurry. Anything that makes the race day easier on me is a good thing. One less headache to worry about and should give more time to focus on other things that may need the attention.
Some other stuff to always stay on top of:
Most all of the current 1/10th off-road stuff seems to be very sensitive to ride height, droop, camber link position, and ball stud heights. So much so it's a. It more like onroad, where a difference of .5mm could be a huge on track change. It's a far cry from where things were when I first started for sure. Reading through the camber link thread as has been mentioned is worth doing. If it was 20yrs ago, probably not so much.
For what it's worth, I'll add in what I got or usually do.
Practice:
I always try to practice with purpose. Wether that be for learning a new track or layout, braking in tires, testing a setup change, checking gearing if running stock, checking run times, run as close to race pace without crashing, try different lines in the jump sections or other sections, or what ever. While it's true that wheel time will help, turning laps just to turn laps isn't always best. In my mind there's nothing worse than turning laps with a bad setup or on the wrong tires just to do so when in all likelyhood, once you have the right tires and/or a good setup, the car or truck will feel and react very differently. So if possible, try to practice with purpose.
Always try to have a pretty basic general setup to start with and that works for you and the tracks you may run at. Doesn't have to be 100% spot on right out of the gate, just needs to be close and comfortable to drive. Nothing worse than chasing a setup all day. For me, I like my setups to be easy to drive for me and to ideally need only little changes to get it more dialed in. In some cases only needing a change of tires or a slight shock package change. Admittedly, it doesn't always work out but that's my intent. I don't always make the changes I should, in part simply because I'm lazy at times. Kind of the old, "if it ain't t broke, don't fix it" type thing. Lol.
My radio and ESC settings stay pretty tame compared to a lot for racers I race with. Again in part because of my being a bit lazy, it also so I don't have headaches trying to figure all that out along with everything else that might need to be factored in. So little to no boost or turbo for me. With all the tuning possibilities in ESC's these days, I tend to shy away from playing around too much and run the risk on inadvertently tuning myself right out of a motor or ESC. It's a safe thing to do for sure, though not always the fastest. Radio wise, it try to keep a similar thing going there along the lines of the ESC settings. Nothing too crazy. Once I get the radio dialed in, I tend to leave it alone and only sometimes make a change to the brake EPA. I know some that like to change the dual rate settings pretty often, but for me, I don't bother. Same goes for the expo on the steering. I know some that use it a lot, though I don't always feel it's needed in off-road. Onroad racers do tend to use that function on their steering more often though. In off-road, I don't think most of the top racers use it, unless it's in 1/8th Nitro and then it seems to be used only for the throttle/brake side. The use of expo is probably more of a preference thing.
For local racing, I don't do a lot of pre-race things. Usually I might check the ride height and camber settings once a day. That is unless I've made a more significant setup change to took a pretty hard crash and things don't feel right after. If at an out of town race or bigger race event I'll check things a little more as I'm likely making more changes than I normally would. Specifically if I'm running a lot of different tires either in different sizes (2.2 or 2.4) or different tire Mfg.s as there can be a pretty big difference in tire heights that could change the ride height enough to make a big difference. Wether it's a fresh layout at the local track or going to an out of town track with a new layout or a track I haven't been to, it never hurts to take a stroll out on the track if possible. There you'll be able to see things that you might not be able to from the stand. At the very least, if allowed, get up on the stand and take a good look around.
If I'm up on the stand taking a look at the layout I'll try to visualize my car on the layout and try to get a mental idea of where I want my car to be going around the track. I'll also try to look at the track from a few different places on the stand to see if there's a line of sight issue anywhere. They do sometimes happen and if you haven't at least stood in that spot or part of the stand, it could throw you a mental curveball you maybe weren't expecting. You can do the same thing once you get to drive on the layout as well. You'd be surprised at how different a layout can feel just be going from one of the stand to the other. Plus if everyone wants to all stand more towards one end of the stand and you didn't get up there in time or didn't qualify high enough to pick the exact spot you want, you be ready to tackle the layout from anywhere on the stand.
When it comes to my general pit setup, I'll setup my pit area the exact same way every time at every track for the most part. That way I know exactly where everything is when I need it. To the point I can tell if something is missing just by looking. A bit OCD probably, but it works for me and is a consistent way of doing things that just give that little piece of mind to where I'm not thinking about where I put stuff or have to find stuff in a hurry. Anything that makes the race day easier on me is a good thing. One less headache to worry about and should give more time to focus on other things that may need the attention.
Some other stuff to always stay on top of:
Most all of the current 1/10th off-road stuff seems to be very sensitive to ride height, droop, camber link position, and ball stud heights. So much so it's a. It more like onroad, where a difference of .5mm could be a huge on track change. It's a far cry from where things were when I first started for sure. Reading through the camber link thread as has been mentioned is worth doing. If it was 20yrs ago, probably not so much.
10-14-2015, 03:13 PM
#22
Teuful makes a good point. When you go to practice it should be to practice good laps if nothing else. Pretty much all the practice laps I do are timed, with the counter telling me the laptime each lap. It's amazing the difference between what is fast, and what feels fast! If you have an iPhone there's a $.99 app you can get that times your laps, but it only works when on the track by yourself. I love the thing to death, but I have my own track to run on every day. It might not do you any good if you never get a chance to run alone on the track. Another bonus of hearing your times each lap is if you make changes, you get instant feedback whether it's working or not. Don't forget to walk the track either. You can see a lot of things up close that you'll never see from the stand. If you're car won't take a jump right no matter what you do, it might have a hole in front of it, angled wrong, etc.
Teuful, you sound a lot like me.. I am kind of lazy about doing things to my radio or esc also. So many ways to tune yourself in a circle
And to your ride height/tire change.. I was a nitro guy who showed up to an electric series race and was having the race day of my life, qual'd well into the A and the truck was dialed. Against my normal judgement, I made a change.. I went to the rear tire everybody else was doing right before the main and never checked the ride height. Truck nose dived nearly every jump on the track wanting to do somersaults on landing. Man I was disappointed! A mistake to change tires, and even less intelligent not to compensate for the height difference. A good tip.
Teuful, you sound a lot like me.. I am kind of lazy about doing things to my radio or esc also. So many ways to tune yourself in a circle
And to your ride height/tire change.. I was a nitro guy who showed up to an electric series race and was having the race day of my life, qual'd well into the A and the truck was dialed. Against my normal judgement, I made a change.. I went to the rear tire everybody else was doing right before the main and never checked the ride height. Truck nose dived nearly every jump on the track wanting to do somersaults on landing. Man I was disappointed! A mistake to change tires, and even less intelligent not to compensate for the height difference. A good tip.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
