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Old 07-13-2011, 09:07 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by MadRussian
You mean overcharge and use BS marketing schemes to sucker noobies that don't know any better?
Don't you want to see our hobby grow?
Why do you want to see rc racers shafted by a company?
What Maxamps does for the industry?
Hurt it in my opinion, and I would bet money the majority of racers feel the same way.
Your defense of Maxamps holds as much water as a screen door, how could anybody defend their business practices?

"Yeah its ok they charge 2-3x times what they should, they advertise heavily" is the absurd excuse I recall that you used before.



Integrity is doing the right thing when nobody is watching.
OK, since you didn't pay attention to what I have been writing, basically I compared their marketing to cheap car stereo lines and I disagree with what they are doing with the "true rating" concept. I said they need to explain why their 6500 pack lasted as long as a 5000 pack.

Now as a slight change of subject, do you know why Ace packs consistantly test very well? I know because we use them outside of the US in our RTRs for all 3 scales.

I specifically said that I support them because they used to support racers, they used to sponsor events, they still do provide support that is very helpful to new people, they do provide a form of sliding warranty, but they do offer something. A lot of companies in other industries use a sliding scale warranty so this isn't unique. I know that if you email them, or do their online support, or call them, they respond quickly if not instantly. They keep a large supply so there are never any "what's up with hobbypartz?" types of threads where no one can contact them and nothing is in stock.

Now I can play devil's advocate. Lets switch to cars. Kyosho, Team Durango, Xray, and Mugen are all the high end priced cars. What support do they provide? How do you contact them? Do you have an issue with them having full page ads in the magazine? Do you like it at a race if they give out a prize or more? Do they have an online chat? Do you have to pay even more to get better performance from companies like kingheadz or tresrey, etc....

I can take all of your arguments against maxamps and show you how you should then be pro OFNA, Caster, Hot Bodies, etc... or I can take all of your arguments against me and set up a valid case as to why those brands are overpriced and offer the same performance in regards to durability and track performance.

I certainly don't want to change the subject and turn this into a bash against us, especially since I agree with most everyone here on this topic, but, I wanted to address the inaccuracy of Jang's test.

Now to answer your questions.

1.) overcharge depends on market. Apparently they do enough business to not to have to lower their price structure. We have discussed Ferrari vs Corvette, etc... We are the exact opposite of maxamps.

2.) Absolutely I want to see our hobby grow. I think Traxxas is the greatest company on earth because of what they have done for the industry. Threads like this are specifically why I think the hobby does not grow and why people leave the hobby. Which I also addressed as to why you do not see maxamps supporting the race side of the industry anymore and why I tried to make the point that this stuff seems all fun and games to the keyboard cowboys, but it affects people. There is another thread here that was talking crap about Ronda that was completely off the wall and offensive. A perfect example is Chris at holeshot hobbies. He quit the hobby completely due to issues at the tracks in Florida and the constant feeling of playing defender to Caster, Agama, and Ace before they were considered good. To be 100% honest, he is the reason why Ace batteries are in the US. and he was one of the nicest and most helpful and knowledgeable people here. One day he decided he had enough and sold all of his inventory, his race trailer, and everything from the store and went back into Kawasaki crotch rockets and 5.0 Mustangs.

3) I do not want to see any racer get shafted by a company. That is why we have a sponsorship program for racers and have an elite program for our top guys. We also started a sponsorship program for new kid racers that is successful to ease the burden on rc dads/moms. But since we are small and are word of mouth, 99% of the industry has no knowledge of this. We also have done joint effort sponsorships with Tekin, Viper, Castle, Panther, Alpha motors, Alpha tires, Maxamps, Ace, Diggity Designs, Mantisworks, Dan's True Rc, and a few others.

Bottom line, I have always supported the racers even though the majority of them never supported us. I feel I am doing what I can for those who support us.

However, it certainly does not help sell cars unless you have a top name driver winning big races. I can contend that anyone buying a Kyosho at $900 is getting shafted, but their customers would argue against me (which is great for the industry and Kyosho)

4,5,6) Same as 3

Last edited by hakmazter; 07-13-2011 at 09:12 PM. Reason: forgot castle
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:42 AM
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well said..

labeling is an issue they(MA) probably need to address.

that said, there are many factors dat i think control the cost of an end product. nowadays it would seems labour is a big part of it. say in the US, the cost of hiring a local American to do just the soldering work would probably be enough to pay 10 kids or more in those sweatshop in Asia..

i keep reading abt supporting 'made in USA' stuffs, but when a particular item cost more because of labour coat n stuffs, they often get bashed, and compared to, stuffs made in China Taiwan etc..

i am sure MA have a way to justify their higher cost/selling price, and if not they would probably cease to exist.
laws of the world; market force will eventually kick out those that constantly fail to deliver.

end of the day; dun like it? dun buy it! no need to bash it!

my 2cents..

cheers
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
OK, since you didn't pay attention to what I have been writing, basically I compared their marketing to cheap car stereo lines and I disagree with what they are doing with the "true rating" concept. I said they need to explain why their 6500 pack lasted as long as a 5000 pack.

Now as a slight change of subject, do you know why Ace packs consistantly test very well? I know because we use them outside of the US in our RTRs for all 3 scales.

I specifically said that I support them because they used to support racers, they used to sponsor events, they still do provide support that is very helpful to new people, they do provide a form of sliding warranty, but they do offer something. A lot of companies in other industries use a sliding scale warranty so this isn't unique. I know that if you email them, or do their online support, or call them, they respond quickly if not instantly. They keep a large supply so there are never any "what's up with hobbypartz?" types of threads where no one can contact them and nothing is in stock.

Now I can play devil's advocate. Lets switch to cars. Kyosho, Team Durango, Xray, and Mugen are all the high end priced cars. What support do they provide? How do you contact them? Do you have an issue with them having full page ads in the magazine? Do you like it at a race if they give out a prize or more? Do they have an online chat? Do you have to pay even more to get better performance from companies like kingheadz or tresrey, etc....

I can take all of your arguments against maxamps and show you how you should then be pro OFNA, Caster, Hot Bodies, etc... or I can take all of your arguments against me and set up a valid case as to why those brands are overpriced and offer the same performance in regards to durability and track performance.

I certainly don't want to change the subject and turn this into a bash against us, especially since I agree with most everyone here on this topic, but, I wanted to address the inaccuracy of Jang's test.

Now to answer your questions.

1.) overcharge depends on market. Apparently they do enough business to not to have to lower their price structure. We have discussed Ferrari vs Corvette, etc... We are the exact opposite of maxamps.

2.) Absolutely I want to see our hobby grow. I think Traxxas is the greatest company on earth because of what they have done for the industry. Threads like this are specifically why I think the hobby does not grow and why people leave the hobby. Which I also addressed as to why you do not see maxamps supporting the race side of the industry anymore and why I tried to make the point that this stuff seems all fun and games to the keyboard cowboys, but it affects people. There is another thread here that was talking crap about Ronda that was completely off the wall and offensive. A perfect example is Chris at holeshot hobbies. He quit the hobby completely due to issues at the tracks in Florida and the constant feeling of playing defender to Caster, Agama, and Ace before they were considered good. To be 100% honest, he is the reason why Ace batteries are in the US. and he was one of the nicest and most helpful and knowledgeable people here. One day he decided he had enough and sold all of his inventory, his race trailer, and everything from the store and went back into Kawasaki crotch rockets and 5.0 Mustangs.

3) I do not want to see any racer get shafted by a company. That is why we have a sponsorship program for racers and have an elite program for our top guys. We also started a sponsorship program for new kid racers that is successful to ease the burden on rc dads/moms. But since we are small and are word of mouth, 99% of the industry has no knowledge of this. We also have done joint effort sponsorships with Tekin, Viper, Castle, Panther, Alpha motors, Alpha tires, Maxamps, Ace, Diggity Designs, Mantisworks, Dan's True Rc, and a few others.

Bottom line, I have always supported the racers even though the majority of them never supported us. I feel I am doing what I can for those who support us.

However, it certainly does not help sell cars unless you have a top name driver winning big races. I can contend that anyone buying a Kyosho at $900 is getting shafted, but their customers would argue against me (which is great for the industry and Kyosho)

4,5,6) Same as 3
1. Weaksauce argument and evasive. The bottom line is you support a company that has blatantly obvious BS marketing practices, and is WAY overpriced, and preys on noobs that dont know better. Anyone that has a clue avoids them like leprosy.

2. If you want to see our hobby grow, then shouldn't you want to see integrity in business practices? How do you think noobs feel when they realize that the magazines hype and maxamps price and stated performance are bullshit? Get real.

3. If you dont, then why would you want someone to spend 3-4x the amount of money on inferior products? And your excuse "because they advertise heavily" makes as much sense as a solar powered flashlight. Why even bring Caster into this, you dont make batteries Feeling guilty or something?

4,5,6 see #3

Wanna place bets on how long MaxAmps is around?
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
We have discussed Ferrari vs Corvette, etc...
This is seriously the worst analogy. It's more like "TRUE 105 OCTANE RACE GAS", that has the chemistry and performance of mid-grade from some off-brand pump.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Cocoa Nutt
This is seriously the worst analogy. It's more like "TRUE 105 OCTANE RACE GAS", that has the chemistry and performance of mid-grade from some off-brand pump.
Yeah he didnt get it before when someone responded to it either
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:48 AM
  #51  
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Seriously? The past several posts I have complained about their choice of using a diffferent rating style. I also questioned the 6500 mah and confirmed that Jang could actually test those results.

The concept that they are overpriced I was trying to make it relative. Since the car analogy seemed to be too difficult.....

You go to Flemings and spend $50+ per plate, get a waiter, several courses, etc...food tastes good and you are happy.

You go to Olive garden, same thing, but priced less.

You go to McDonalds, technically someone waits on you, food tastes good, and you are happy.

Who are you to say that the customer at Fleming's got ripped off when the other 2 examples clearly show the customer got fed and was happy?

I said they provide a service that the other brands do not. I said they charge a lot. Is it worth it? Maybe not to you, maybe not to me, but if there are people who are willing to pay for something, market decides.


As for business integrity, I definitely stand for it and can prove it. I have questioned myself some of the same topics here, but I didn't post a picture of a house with writing and I didn't jump on the bandwagon without adding a relevant and honest fact.

As for maxamps, I stated I hate the practice of their rating style of true c. I do not want anyone to spend their money foolishly on maxamps, caster, team durango, protek, etc.... but foolishly is perspective based. You think maxamps has no value, yet apparently others do since they are still around.

Maybe this is the end for them, maybe they will be here for eons, but as a side note, they have tried to be innovative with lipo, then life, then the stackable batteries. I support the attempt at innovation but I do not support confusing or misleading a potential customer.

PAY ClOSE ATTENTION HERE..... If there was a thread on here bashing Mugen in this manner, I would try to defend them as well, especially if some youtube expert did a flawed test such as acceleration tests with different esc/motor/gearing in different cars or a different servo for turning tests.

As for batteries, Caster could have them tomorrow, just like Reedy, Orion, Protek, Venom, now traxxas, etc..... I have chosen to not do them at all for the US market. Matter of fact, I could have been the US importer for Ace in 2008, but I was concerned about liability, international shipping, etc.....
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
Seriously? The past several posts I have complained about their choice of using a diffferent rating style. I also questioned the 6500 mah and confirmed that Jang could actually test those results.

The concept that they are overpriced I was trying to make it relative. Since the car analogy seemed to be too difficult.....

You go to Flemings and spend $50+ per plate, get a waiter, several courses, etc...food tastes good and you are happy.

You go to Olive garden, same thing, but priced less.

You go to McDonalds, technically someone waits on you, food tastes good, and you are happy.

Who are you to say that the customer at Fleming's got ripped off when the other 2 examples clearly show the customer got fed and was happy?

I said they provide a service that the other brands do not. I said they charge a lot. Is it worth it? Maybe not to you, maybe not to me, but if there are people who are willing to pay for something, market decides.


As for business integrity, I definitely stand for it and can prove it. I have questioned myself some of the same topics here, but I didn't post a picture of a house with writing and I didn't jump on the bandwagon without adding a relevant and honest fact.

As for maxamps, I stated I hate the practice of their rating style of true c. I do not want anyone to spend their money foolishly on maxamps, caster, team durango, protek, etc.... but foolishly is perspective based. You think maxamps has no value, yet apparently others do since they are still around.

Maybe this is the end for them, maybe they will be here for eons, but as a side note, they have tried to be innovative with lipo, then life, then the stackable batteries. I support the attempt at innovation but I do not support confusing or misleading a potential customer.

PAY ClOSE ATTENTION HERE..... If there was a thread on here bashing Mugen in this manner, I would try to defend them as well, especially if some youtube expert did a flawed test such as acceleration tests with different esc/motor/gearing in different cars or a different servo for turning tests.

As for batteries, Caster could have them tomorrow, just like Reedy, Orion, Protek, Venom, now traxxas, etc..... I have chosen to not do them at all for the US market. Matter of fact, I could have been the US importer for Ace in 2008, but I was concerned about liability, international shipping, etc.....
All the things you mention here are very subjective, taste of food, preference of car, etc. The performance of a battery, however, is very objective.

AFAIC, the support, advertising, etc. are non-issues at this point. The principle argument, battery performance, is still at square one. If they met the specs printed on the label, then moving on to the value argument could be the next step. IMO, there is no need for companies who use the flea market, bloated spec sales strategies who don't charge flea market prices.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Cocoa Nutt
All the things you mention here are very subjective, taste of food, preference of car, etc. The performance of a battery, however, is very objective.

AFAIC, the support, advertising, etc. are non-issues at this point. The principle argument, battery performance, is still at square one. If they met the specs printed on the label, then moving on to the value argument could be the next step. IMO, there is no need for companies who use the flea market, bloated spec sales strategies who don't charge flea market prices.
Exactly! The only debatable point is the fact that the 6500 performed like a 5000. The other parts of the tests are void. We also had someone subjectively say that the maxamps did perform from a punch standpoint slightly better than their proteks. I agree with the 150 being confusing, etc..... But from what he said, it was better.

I would have to assume that maxamps would lower their prices if they need to. I assume they have made some changes to their warranty, etc... Because of threads like these and because of pressure from anyone who can buy a battery and a sticker. I just find it ironic how brand perception is at rctech.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:19 PM
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My whole premise has always been that it seems that all of these threads are more of a let's put maxamps out of business. I think it should be let's help maxamps be a better company. It might benefit all of us somehow.

If they do lower their price, make absolutely sure that all specs are correct, etc.... How is that a bad thing for all of us?
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
.......


You go to Flemings and spend $50+ per plate, get a waiter, several courses, etc...food tastes good and you are happy.

You go to Olive garden, same thing, but priced less.

You go to McDonalds, technically someone waits on you, food tastes good, and you are happy.

....
MaxAmps is basically McDonalds at Flemings prices. You get your big mac with great service & don't forget that big tip!

The fact they misrepresent their products is the main issue what everybody has with them.

We all want to grow this hobby and bring in new people, ripping people off with products that obviously do not perform as advertised is no way of introducing people into the hobby.

Last edited by KostaG; 07-14-2011 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by KostaG
MaxAmps is basically McDonalds at Flemings prices. You get your big mac with great service &don't forget that big tip!

The fact they misrepresent their products is the main issue what everybody has with them.

We all want to grow this hobby and bring in new people, ripping people off with products that obviously do not perform as advertised is no way of introducing people into the hobby.
Exactly.......so in a nutshell, you can polish and charge for a shiny terd all you want, at the end of the day you still have an overpriced terd.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
My whole premise has always been that it seems that all of these threads are more of a let's put maxamps out of business. I think it should be let's help maxamps be a better company. It might benefit all of us somehow.

If they do lower their price, make absolutely sure that all specs are correct, etc.... How is that a bad thing for all of us?

I dont think these threads are about sending maxamps out of business at all. Its just about people sharing information and experiences. How many threads do you see started by people new to the hobby or lipos looking for suggestions.

I've not seen maxamps respond really at all to any of these threads, and now they are gone. Something tells me they dont care about being a better company. Maybe they do however...Either way I have no interest in Maxamps success or failure - therefore I'm not rooting for them to fail.


Everyone always calls these 'bash' threads... Sure there may be a few people looking to cause trouble - but LOTS of these threads are filled with hobbyists that spend a reasonable amount of money in this area of interest that are simply discussing what they've seen, experienced, or tested. Maxamps has rarely been called junk, crap, garbage batteries. I have not seen much bashing at all.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:59 PM
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Anyone want a brand new Stampede VXL that will do 60mph? I guarantee it to run for at least 3 years on that motor.

It's actually an old stampede with a stock brushed motor that may only do 20 on a 7-cell pack. Oh, and if that motor goes after the first year, you have to pay 3/4 of the price to me for a new one, but according to MaxAmps standards, I can sell it as listed above!
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
If they do lower their price, make absolutely sure that all specs are correct, etc.... How is that a bad thing for all of us?
Let us know when this happens.

I also am of the feeling that the intent isn't to shut them down, or have them go out of business. For all manufacturers and hobbyists, I think it would be beneficial to have some sort of standard set for testing, checking and labeling packs. Especially if they're gonna be ROAR approved. I feel that should mean more than it shouldn't burn out your stuff and it's safe.
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hakmazter
Exactly! The only debatable point is the fact that the 6500 performed like a 5000. The other parts of the tests are void. We also had someone subjectively say that the maxamps did perform from a punch standpoint slightly better than their proteks. I agree with the 150 being confusing, etc..... But from what he said, it was better.

I would have to assume that maxamps would lower their prices if they need to. I assume they have made some changes to their warranty, etc... Because of threads like these and because of pressure from anyone who can buy a battery and a sticker. I just find it ironic how brand perception is at rctech.
There is a significant amount of hard data available, from a variety of independent testers, that indicates the punch, IR, C rating, whichever yardstick one cares to use, is mediocre at best. Many using CBA equipment which likely addresses your concerns about this one particular test.

Note there are many other high priced lipos available, one generally only hears occasional criticism of those companies, because in general, while not perfect, those brands do tend to deliver top level performance, for those interested in or needing such.

Offered in the spirit of constructive criticism. I'm all in favor of them improving, as Austin has discussed on other sites. But until then, it's simply not our fault for pointing out the obvious to our fellow hobbyists.

Although I agree some get carried away in pointing that out.
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