Controlled Tyres V Selected Controlled Pattern Tyres
08-24-2014 | 09:17 PM
#1
Controlled Tyres V Selected Controlled Pattern Tyres
ok guys this should be discussed so we can all see if its worth bringing up at the National EP 1/10th titles in October for voting etc
after seeing some talk from Matty Griffen and other talks around some tracks i will put it out there , with the sport / hobby on the growth i think we need to move with the times and with numbers growing top 5 state drivers and top 10 national driver should be able to get tyre help , not free i know but discounted deals should be able to be secured , we want the best to race at all these events and controlled tyre events can sometime cause issues
over the past 5 years every single state title or national title has either been run on a small pin type tyre or a bar type tyre , this should be opened up to all manufactures to say any driver can for example use any one of the following tyres
just a quuick example with out even looking
Bar type
AKA = rebars
Proline = Suburbs
Panther = Rattlers
Hot Bodies = Beams
J Concepts = Bar codes
Pin Type
AKA = Gridions
Proline = Holeshots
Panthers = Raptors
Hot Bodies = Megabites
J Concepts = Double Dees
ok that was just a quick look and some might be a tad off but you get the idea , all these main event need to attract everyone and there is a lot of people that know and use there own brand of tyre that there happy with surely if we are going to try and be the best in the sport then we should be allowed to use the equipment we practise with
i would like to hear others thoughts i dont mind limiting numbers etc or even compound softness thats fine have a go at the poll and vote so we can see if its worth taking this to all clubs at the nats
sorry i cant seem to get a poll up
should we be able to use controlled patterns from all companys
or
should we all have to use controlled tyre from 1 company
after seeing some talk from Matty Griffen and other talks around some tracks i will put it out there , with the sport / hobby on the growth i think we need to move with the times and with numbers growing top 5 state drivers and top 10 national driver should be able to get tyre help , not free i know but discounted deals should be able to be secured , we want the best to race at all these events and controlled tyre events can sometime cause issues
over the past 5 years every single state title or national title has either been run on a small pin type tyre or a bar type tyre , this should be opened up to all manufactures to say any driver can for example use any one of the following tyres
just a quuick example with out even looking
Bar type
AKA = rebars
Proline = Suburbs
Panther = Rattlers
Hot Bodies = Beams
J Concepts = Bar codes
Pin Type
AKA = Gridions
Proline = Holeshots
Panthers = Raptors
Hot Bodies = Megabites
J Concepts = Double Dees
ok that was just a quick look and some might be a tad off but you get the idea , all these main event need to attract everyone and there is a lot of people that know and use there own brand of tyre that there happy with surely if we are going to try and be the best in the sport then we should be allowed to use the equipment we practise with
i would like to hear others thoughts i dont mind limiting numbers etc or even compound softness thats fine have a go at the poll and vote so we can see if its worth taking this to all clubs at the nats
sorry i cant seem to get a poll up
should we be able to use controlled patterns from all companys
or
should we all have to use controlled tyre from 1 company
08-25-2014 | 12:19 AM
#3
I'd say AKA Handlebar STD are more of a match for the other bar type tyres. But on the topic itself, I see some issues.
1. One companies 'soft' may be another's 'medium' etc. Therefore, you have to keep it open compound, thus increasing the number of compounds you have to take to an event.
2. Then, other than sponsored drivers who are locked into a particular brand, you will end up with people taking multiple brands of tyre to have the right one as one companies bar tyre may be slightly different and better to another.
3. Diluting the number of 'sales' for the event tyre supplier by opening it up to multiple manufacturers will make it not worth their while. I'm not sure what the margins are, but they make little on a $15 control tyre now compared to retail. So if they don't get sole bulk supply for an event what is the incentive for them to supply them at reduced prices.
4. This would only be an advantage for sponsored drivers as they'll get to use their own discounted tyres and will save them a lot of money, but for everyone else it'll add much more expense to a big event. Plus you'll have your 'top 5' in the A Main able to afford to throw new tyres on every run, whilst the other bottom 5 will have to pay a premium to do the same.
I think you either need a single control tyre and compound or else you may as well go open tyres.
1. One companies 'soft' may be another's 'medium' etc. Therefore, you have to keep it open compound, thus increasing the number of compounds you have to take to an event.
2. Then, other than sponsored drivers who are locked into a particular brand, you will end up with people taking multiple brands of tyre to have the right one as one companies bar tyre may be slightly different and better to another.
3. Diluting the number of 'sales' for the event tyre supplier by opening it up to multiple manufacturers will make it not worth their while. I'm not sure what the margins are, but they make little on a $15 control tyre now compared to retail. So if they don't get sole bulk supply for an event what is the incentive for them to supply them at reduced prices.
4. This would only be an advantage for sponsored drivers as they'll get to use their own discounted tyres and will save them a lot of money, but for everyone else it'll add much more expense to a big event. Plus you'll have your 'top 5' in the A Main able to afford to throw new tyres on every run, whilst the other bottom 5 will have to pay a premium to do the same.
I think you either need a single control tyre and compound or else you may as well go open tyres.
08-25-2014 | 12:42 AM
#4
Basically, I agree with Alex.
Similar tyres are not the same. Compounds vary, tread patterns and carcus design vary also. Two tyres that look the same might handle quite differently in certain conditions. Result: you end up carrying tyres from a number of different manufacturers to get an edge.
Going to a controlled pattern would benefit sponsored drivers, but at the expense of everyone else. Because whilst sponsored guys may be able to secure tyres much cheaper (in conditions where there is not much difference between manufacturers), the guaranteed supply and AARCMCC cost controls we get through a control tyre format would be lost.
Similar tyres are not the same. Compounds vary, tread patterns and carcus design vary also. Two tyres that look the same might handle quite differently in certain conditions. Result: you end up carrying tyres from a number of different manufacturers to get an edge.
Going to a controlled pattern would benefit sponsored drivers, but at the expense of everyone else. Because whilst sponsored guys may be able to secure tyres much cheaper (in conditions where there is not much difference between manufacturers), the guaranteed supply and AARCMCC cost controls we get through a control tyre format would be lost.
08-25-2014 | 12:46 AM
#5
I'd say AKA Handlebar STD are more of a match for the other bar type tyres. But on the topic itself, I see some issues.
1. One companies 'soft' may be another's 'medium' etc. Therefore, you have to keep it open compound, thus increasing the number of compounds you have to take to an event.
2. Then, other than sponsored drivers who are locked into a particular brand, you will end up with people taking multiple brands of tyre to have the right one as one companies bar tyre may be slightly different and better to another.
3. Diluting the number of 'sales' for the event tyre supplier by opening it up to multiple manufacturers will make it not worth their while. I'm not sure what the margins are, but they make little on a $15 control tyre now compared to retail. So if they don't get sole bulk supply for an event what is the incentive for them to supply them at reduced prices.
4. This would only be an advantage for sponsored drivers as they'll get to use their own discounted tyres and will save them a lot of money, but for everyone else it'll add much more expense to a big event. Plus you'll have your 'top 5' in the A Main able to afford to throw new tyres on every run, whilst the other bottom 5 will have to pay a premium to do the same.
I think you either need a single control tyre and compound or else you may as well go open tyres.
1. One companies 'soft' may be another's 'medium' etc. Therefore, you have to keep it open compound, thus increasing the number of compounds you have to take to an event.
2. Then, other than sponsored drivers who are locked into a particular brand, you will end up with people taking multiple brands of tyre to have the right one as one companies bar tyre may be slightly different and better to another.
3. Diluting the number of 'sales' for the event tyre supplier by opening it up to multiple manufacturers will make it not worth their while. I'm not sure what the margins are, but they make little on a $15 control tyre now compared to retail. So if they don't get sole bulk supply for an event what is the incentive for them to supply them at reduced prices.
4. This would only be an advantage for sponsored drivers as they'll get to use their own discounted tyres and will save them a lot of money, but for everyone else it'll add much more expense to a big event. Plus you'll have your 'top 5' in the A Main able to afford to throw new tyres on every run, whilst the other bottom 5 will have to pay a premium to do the same.
I think you either need a single control tyre and compound or else you may as well go open tyres.
08-25-2014 | 03:37 AM
#6
That's fine I agree with what's been said for sure and I just wanted it brought up
I personally feel that if I am traveling to another state to race then I am not going to be short on a set of tyres to save costs other wise I would not go
Just a shame that we don't get the best guys racing in these events cause we are so far behind the rest of the world.
I am sure the likes of ryper and Hei would come to a agreement for races in these events to make it cheaper then normal but it seems we are just happy to live in the past and not allow change to happen.
Entry fee alone should be plenty for clubs to host events we are paying $40 a class to get at the most 35 mins of racing that's if you make the triple AMains
As for compounds well it's softs for a unsurgared track and meds for a sugar track and there would be no complaints.
This crap of chewing a set of tyres in 5 mins is the biggest cost out there blind freedy can see that you want a equal playing field in off road then don't run softs or super softs on treated tracks plain and simple.
But with people like Josh and Ari and others to represent these companies I would be very surprised if they could not agree on patterns that are so close to equal , the normal person would not even be able to tell the difference.
I personally feel that if I am traveling to another state to race then I am not going to be short on a set of tyres to save costs other wise I would not go
Just a shame that we don't get the best guys racing in these events cause we are so far behind the rest of the world.
I am sure the likes of ryper and Hei would come to a agreement for races in these events to make it cheaper then normal but it seems we are just happy to live in the past and not allow change to happen.
Entry fee alone should be plenty for clubs to host events we are paying $40 a class to get at the most 35 mins of racing that's if you make the triple AMains
As for compounds well it's softs for a unsurgared track and meds for a sugar track and there would be no complaints.
This crap of chewing a set of tyres in 5 mins is the biggest cost out there blind freedy can see that you want a equal playing field in off road then don't run softs or super softs on treated tracks plain and simple.
But with people like Josh and Ari and others to represent these companies I would be very surprised if they could not agree on patterns that are so close to equal , the normal person would not even be able to tell the difference.
08-25-2014 | 01:37 PM
#7
Tech Rookie
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2
From: Somewhere near you!!
You want to talk about being equal... How about we all run slick tyres, with traction additive, and not just any additive, a personalised special blend that no one else will have, but you know because of weeks and weeks of practice, works the best.
This did'nt seem to be an issue at the latest QLD state tiltes, did it?
Also, just so everything is equal.... I hope the track change for the Nationals isnt to much of a change, otherwise how will the locals win.
Will be interesting to see how some of you State champioms, and multiple State champions go down, on a real outdoor offroad track.
Just my 2 cents
John...
This did'nt seem to be an issue at the latest QLD state tiltes, did it?
Also, just so everything is equal.... I hope the track change for the Nationals isnt to much of a change, otherwise how will the locals win.
Will be interesting to see how some of you State champioms, and multiple State champions go down, on a real outdoor offroad track.
Just my 2 cents
John...
08-25-2014 | 01:59 PM
#8
Read the rules John traction compound is allowed in 1/10th 
The guy that won all 4 classes in mod was on plain old blue sticky kicks which what we told everyone straight from the start
For the record don't even start about track changes cause even Mildura last year the track was not changed and they have all ready said there will only be minor track changes for ACT this year
Some of you guys really are that childish wow
And never once I said I wanted it equal I want the best in the sport to be able to use a suitable tyre that we are all used to.
But hey turn this thread to shit as well who cares it was not meant to turn into track and tyre compound wars
P.s. Nice new user name so you can have a dig behind a made up name quality
If your going to have a dig at least be man enough to not use a made up account
The guy that won all 4 classes in mod was on plain old blue sticky kicks which what we told everyone straight from the start
For the record don't even start about track changes cause even Mildura last year the track was not changed and they have all ready said there will only be minor track changes for ACT this year
Some of you guys really are that childish wow
And never once I said I wanted it equal I want the best in the sport to be able to use a suitable tyre that we are all used to.
But hey turn this thread to shit as well who cares it was not meant to turn into track and tyre compound wars
P.s. Nice new user name so you can have a dig behind a made up name quality
If your going to have a dig at least be man enough to not use a made up account
08-25-2014 | 04:19 PM
#9
The current rule set is infinitely better than the old days of open tyres. Open tyre is very expensive, a logistical nightmare and does not promote close competition. It is even worse now with so many tyre options in 1/10. Everyone is on the same tyre now so the competition is very equal and no-one can claim an advantage.
I agree with some of the issues you raise Darren. I am a well sponsored driver, but these events become very expensive for me as it is very rare that my sponsors tyres are used. And with new tyres able to be used each run, it adds a lot of cost for tyres I cant use anywhere else. Its the same cost for a privateer, and I truly dont know how some people can afford it! I hear that tyres can be used 2 or 3 runs - but its very rare that a 2 or 3 run tyre is as fast as a new tyre, so given that tyres are the most critical part of lap time, it pretty much forces a new set each run. There is also the issue of the tender process, which many criticise for not being very transparent (I dont have a better answer for that one).
On the positive side, it is a very equal playing field, you dont need to bring ranges of tyres, and is still cheaper than having fully open tyres. And the tyre cost limit has been successful.
I like the idea of controlling treads, as it would allow people to promote their brands better, but there are some rules that I believe would be necessary:
- you should nominate your brand tyre in advance of the event (to prevent the case of bringing every tyre to the event and testing which is better).
- Compound should be open (very hard to scrutineer compound, but easy to check tread, and its hard to compare compounds from each manufacturer). But I think the number you use should be limited to say 2 sets for qualifying and 2 sets for finals to limit the number of tyres to save people bringing 30pr of every compound to the track.
- Tyre cost should be guaranteed to $15 as per the current rules.
- CC inserts from the manufacturer of the tyre. Possibly seperate to the $15 rule as these are reusable.
With this rule set I think it would be similar cost to the current rules for privateers, and allow people who are sponsored to promote their products more easily. But I am sure that there are some downsides I havent considered.
I think if the track surface suits bar tyres it would work well, but my experience with pin tyres is that they are more specific for the surface, and it may be harder to select equivalent tyres from each brand.
Earlier this year we ran an Invitational style race at Keilor and we trialled a similar concept. We allowed JConcepts Bar Codes, AKA Rebars, and Proline Suburbs. AKA red CC inserts. Limited sets (3 sets over 6 races) and brand nominated in advance. Compound was controlled, but it was evident that some brands worked better in different temperatures which is where it may be better for open compound.
Personally I reckon this would be great for the open class, where the premise is a more 'open' set of rules and more sponsored drivers, but I don't know if it is the correct direction for stock. Cue flaming.
Interested to hear feedback.
Ray
I agree with some of the issues you raise Darren. I am a well sponsored driver, but these events become very expensive for me as it is very rare that my sponsors tyres are used. And with new tyres able to be used each run, it adds a lot of cost for tyres I cant use anywhere else. Its the same cost for a privateer, and I truly dont know how some people can afford it! I hear that tyres can be used 2 or 3 runs - but its very rare that a 2 or 3 run tyre is as fast as a new tyre, so given that tyres are the most critical part of lap time, it pretty much forces a new set each run. There is also the issue of the tender process, which many criticise for not being very transparent (I dont have a better answer for that one).
On the positive side, it is a very equal playing field, you dont need to bring ranges of tyres, and is still cheaper than having fully open tyres. And the tyre cost limit has been successful.
I like the idea of controlling treads, as it would allow people to promote their brands better, but there are some rules that I believe would be necessary:
- you should nominate your brand tyre in advance of the event (to prevent the case of bringing every tyre to the event and testing which is better).
- Compound should be open (very hard to scrutineer compound, but easy to check tread, and its hard to compare compounds from each manufacturer). But I think the number you use should be limited to say 2 sets for qualifying and 2 sets for finals to limit the number of tyres to save people bringing 30pr of every compound to the track.
- Tyre cost should be guaranteed to $15 as per the current rules.
- CC inserts from the manufacturer of the tyre. Possibly seperate to the $15 rule as these are reusable.
With this rule set I think it would be similar cost to the current rules for privateers, and allow people who are sponsored to promote their products more easily. But I am sure that there are some downsides I havent considered.
I think if the track surface suits bar tyres it would work well, but my experience with pin tyres is that they are more specific for the surface, and it may be harder to select equivalent tyres from each brand.
Earlier this year we ran an Invitational style race at Keilor and we trialled a similar concept. We allowed JConcepts Bar Codes, AKA Rebars, and Proline Suburbs. AKA red CC inserts. Limited sets (3 sets over 6 races) and brand nominated in advance. Compound was controlled, but it was evident that some brands worked better in different temperatures which is where it may be better for open compound.
Personally I reckon this would be great for the open class, where the premise is a more 'open' set of rules and more sponsored drivers, but I don't know if it is the correct direction for stock. Cue flaming.
Interested to hear feedback.
Ray
08-25-2014 | 04:30 PM
#11
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,059
The current rule set is infinitely better than the old days of open tyres. Open tyre is very expensive, a logistical nightmare and does not promote close competition. It is even worse now with so many tyre options in 1/10. Everyone is on the same tyre now so the competition is very equal and no-one can claim an advantage.
I agree with some of the issues you raise Darren. I am a well sponsored driver, but these events become very expensive for me as it is very rare that my sponsors tyres are used. And with new tyres able to be used each run, it adds a lot of cost for tyres I cant use anywhere else. Its the same cost for a privateer, and I truly dont know how some people can afford it! I hear that tyres can be used 2 or 3 runs - but its very rare that a 2 or 3 run tyre is as fast as a new tyre, so given that tyres are the most critical part of lap time, it pretty much forces a new set each run. There is also the issue of the tender process, which many criticise for not being very transparent (I dont have a better answer for that one).
On the positive side, it is a very equal playing field, you dont need to bring ranges of tyres, and is still cheaper than having fully open tyres. And the tyre cost limit has been successful.
Ray
I agree with some of the issues you raise Darren. I am a well sponsored driver, but these events become very expensive for me as it is very rare that my sponsors tyres are used. And with new tyres able to be used each run, it adds a lot of cost for tyres I cant use anywhere else. Its the same cost for a privateer, and I truly dont know how some people can afford it! I hear that tyres can be used 2 or 3 runs - but its very rare that a 2 or 3 run tyre is as fast as a new tyre, so given that tyres are the most critical part of lap time, it pretty much forces a new set each run. There is also the issue of the tender process, which many criticise for not being very transparent (I dont have a better answer for that one).
On the positive side, it is a very equal playing field, you dont need to bring ranges of tyres, and is still cheaper than having fully open tyres. And the tyre cost limit has been successful.
Ray
Hopefully racers would also then practice with older tyres to see how they perform rather than a new set for each practice run.
08-25-2014 | 04:50 PM
#14
Agree open tyre had guys turning up with a boot full of tyres. IMO in combination of control tyre also limited number of sets are also required, 3 sets for qualifying and finals (has done wonders for on road).
Hopefully racers would also then practice with older tyres to see how they perform rather than a new set for each practice run.
Hopefully racers would also then practice with older tyres to see how they perform rather than a new set for each practice run.
08-25-2014 | 05:39 PM
#15
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,059
I agree with you, but there has been a lot of resistance to limiting tyre quantities. A rule proposal to limit quantities for 17.5 was rejected by the clubs earlier this year. It seems that a lot of people in racing enjoy spending money! While its not the only reason I dont attend many state titles (work usually gets in the way) there is no way that I could afford to do more than a few control tyre events each year.
Sadly history repeats itself, how incapable must we be of learning from experience.