A Cohesive EP-Onroad National Scene?
03-02-2014, 05:16 PM
#1
A Cohesive EP-Onroad National Scene?
So friends and fellow racers, after years and years of a fractured EP On-Road scene in terms of classes, dates etc, how can we go about unifying the category nationally, and building the kind of national scene that encourages travel interstate and builds interest in the whole?
As I think about it there are three problems:
1. Classes. There are different classes in Vic/Tas compared to the rest of the country. Qld at least is now broadly similar to AARCMCC. It's hard to travel interstate when spec class rules vary so much, and the capacity to attract a truly national field at Aus Champs is hard.
2. AARCMCC/ORRCA Qld/VORTEC: With three different bodies running, it's difficult to build consensus on rules, event schedules etc. Sure there are some philosophical differences in terms of insurance, role of governing body etc, but without at the very least ongoing, open (public) intentional dialogue between the three bodies...we're always at risk of one or the other choosing to go their own way on rules, events, dates.
3. Event schedule. In March 2014 there are 4 different EP On-Road state championship events (Tas, ACT, Vic, WA). Even if there was a culture of travelling interstate, surely that situation results in every event being weaker than it could be with a properly planned calendar of National and State Championship events.
4. Grassroots culture (I know, I said 3, then I wondered about this one): Is there a desire within grassroots racers for a nationally unified EP On-Road sector? Does anybody actually care? If we (you, me) do, perhaps its time to ask those we have elected to governing bodies to be more proactive (or more transparent) about what is happening behind the scenes, what can happen, what help is needed. If we do manage to unify, how to grow a culture that encourages more interstate travel for major events?
I think the sector is held back by these differences. Clubs, major events, individual racers, shops and importers could all benefit from a more cohesive EP On-road class.
What do you think?
As I think about it there are three problems:
1. Classes. There are different classes in Vic/Tas compared to the rest of the country. Qld at least is now broadly similar to AARCMCC. It's hard to travel interstate when spec class rules vary so much, and the capacity to attract a truly national field at Aus Champs is hard.
2. AARCMCC/ORRCA Qld/VORTEC: With three different bodies running, it's difficult to build consensus on rules, event schedules etc. Sure there are some philosophical differences in terms of insurance, role of governing body etc, but without at the very least ongoing, open (public) intentional dialogue between the three bodies...we're always at risk of one or the other choosing to go their own way on rules, events, dates.
3. Event schedule. In March 2014 there are 4 different EP On-Road state championship events (Tas, ACT, Vic, WA). Even if there was a culture of travelling interstate, surely that situation results in every event being weaker than it could be with a properly planned calendar of National and State Championship events.
4. Grassroots culture (I know, I said 3, then I wondered about this one): Is there a desire within grassroots racers for a nationally unified EP On-Road sector? Does anybody actually care? If we (you, me) do, perhaps its time to ask those we have elected to governing bodies to be more proactive (or more transparent) about what is happening behind the scenes, what can happen, what help is needed. If we do manage to unify, how to grow a culture that encourages more interstate travel for major events?
I think the sector is held back by these differences. Clubs, major events, individual racers, shops and importers could all benefit from a more cohesive EP On-road class.
What do you think?
03-02-2014, 05:45 PM
#3
Great idea for the thread!
This is a topic that has come up a lot in VIC lately and has been the main reason for both TFTR and SERCCC to move to AARCMRCC from VORTEC.
A series similar to the ETS what Australia needs in my opinion (ATS?) one round in every state throughout the year. But as always the big question is...who is going to run it?
This is a topic that has come up a lot in VIC lately and has been the main reason for both TFTR and SERCCC to move to AARCMRCC from VORTEC.
A series similar to the ETS what Australia needs in my opinion (ATS?) one round in every state throughout the year. But as always the big question is...who is going to run it?
03-02-2014, 05:56 PM
#4
As of July most Vortec clubs will adopt AARCMC rules.
That's a start.
I have been very critical of the 4 state titles in one month as only a hand ful of people travel interstate to race. And that number is dropping off every year. There are two states that have to travel to race. ACT and SA and there are others that don't travel to race.
The ACT club are willing to look at a possible date change. A few factors have limited the mod entries for that event due to work conflicts. As I have said else where, Once one or two of the Top mod drivers pull out it has a flow on effect.
The other factor that seems to limit travel interstate is the cost. Eg flights accom and car hire. We are a big country. Some times it is cheaper to go race at TITC for a week than it is to do a Nats interstate.
I was faced with this last year. It worked out only a couple of hundred dollars more to go race at Yatabe for AOC that what it would to go race at the Nats in South Australia.
That's a start.
I have been very critical of the 4 state titles in one month as only a hand ful of people travel interstate to race. And that number is dropping off every year. There are two states that have to travel to race. ACT and SA and there are others that don't travel to race.
The ACT club are willing to look at a possible date change. A few factors have limited the mod entries for that event due to work conflicts. As I have said else where, Once one or two of the Top mod drivers pull out it has a flow on effect.
The other factor that seems to limit travel interstate is the cost. Eg flights accom and car hire. We are a big country. Some times it is cheaper to go race at TITC for a week than it is to do a Nats interstate.
I was faced with this last year. It worked out only a couple of hundred dollars more to go race at Yatabe for AOC that what it would to go race at the Nats in South Australia.
03-02-2014, 06:07 PM
#5
Hi Scott,
The first thing that needs to happen is that AARCMCC EP ONR needs an executive. No one put up their hand at the AGM, and Peter Ellis is doing it by default.
Obviously as a member of the AARCMCC Executive you have to work within the rules and structure of AARCMCC, but within that there is still a lot of scope for improving the administration of EP ONR.
I would encourage you to take the job. If you do, I will help you.
-----
Part of the fractured nature of EP ONR is a result of inactivity within AARCMCC. I do not place the blame for this solely on the people who have held executive positions of late, we all have to take some responsibility for planning a cohesive national structure. However, the executive leads that debate, and without people in those positions to put in the time to make things happen, other organisations step in at a regional level and have a run at things.
-----
Let's talk about cohesiveness across classes for a moment. What are our goals with class structure?
A national body must be concerned with developing drivers to ultimately compete on an international level, as well as growing numbers at grassroots level. Regional organisations do the latter but not the former. Stagnation and inactivity at a national level means you usually end up with the top classes reflecting the worlds classes but a broken pipeline feeding those classes. What to do?
We need a class structure that introduces new people to the hobby and then seemlessly feeds them into junior categories for the worlds classes. From there the talented drivers will go on to Modified level, and the career club racers should be able to have fun and be competitive at that mid-level maintaining strong club and regional racing in those categories.
What I'm trying to get at is the big picture. I don't think a lot of big picture thinking has gone into the present class structure, it's more developed organically. We have a culture at clubs that says, "whatever you guys want to race," no other sport does that. Yes, there needs to be fun classes at club level, these may change from time to time, and part of their job is attracting new people. But nobody plays international Kanga Cricket, no one plays French cricket outside their backyard, these forms of the game are learning tools to bring people in and introduce them to the main game.
The WC classes in EP ONR are ISTC10 and LMP12, the structure for TC nationally now is not too bad, though I still think it could be tweaked to differentiate better the learning category from Stock, but the other half is neglected. Minis and F1s and the like bring people into the sport, but what are we doing to use these as stepping stones to the other categories? It seems we make them 'just as valid' choices as anything else. Experienced racers stay in those categories then, without incentive to move on, and this doesn't leave much room for the next generation. It also deprives other categories of talented drivers.
Ok, so I've now written too many paragraphs, but the point is solving issue No.1 you mentioned requires a national approach, and it requires a national approach with the sort of big picture thinking I've outlined.
With a strong leadership in AARCMCC, issue No.2 will begin to solve itself, clubs will look to AARCMCC rather than a regional body. Issue No.3 can also be solved by a strong leadership in AARCMCC. It's almost trivial in comparison to the other issues. Personally I would love to see a calendar that integrates the 4 main sections of our hobby, and that assigns definite weekends as defaults for each championship.
To your 4th point. A lot of people at grass roots level couldn't care less about national unification, or state championships or national championships or even what the club next door is doing. But it does matter to them.
How does it matter? It matters when new driver X buys a car for class Y, only to find that class Y was a fad class which disappears in 6 months. Driver X leaves the hobby. It matters when drivers with years of experience have no desire to move on from entry level classes; the club scene suffers because you have these people dominating new people. It matters when other drivers with years of experience aren't being challenged at their club and leave. The best players in other sports are kept in those sports because they are encouraged to reach for the next level.
Just having a sensible national strategy that has a prestige hierarchy can do something for numbers at club level. But a pro-active national body can do a lot more. Look at what the BRCA has done by creating a separate 12th scale section and inventing the GT12 category. For those of you unfamiliar this is a category with very restrictive rules and mandated 100 pound limit on chassis cost, in this class you can go racing very cheaply, and it has produced hundreds of new racers that are now moving across to LMP12 and other classes of racing too. Without the army of people to work through the regulations and enforce the cost control it wouldn't work.
The first thing that needs to happen is that AARCMCC EP ONR needs an executive. No one put up their hand at the AGM, and Peter Ellis is doing it by default.
Obviously as a member of the AARCMCC Executive you have to work within the rules and structure of AARCMCC, but within that there is still a lot of scope for improving the administration of EP ONR.
I would encourage you to take the job. If you do, I will help you.
-----
Part of the fractured nature of EP ONR is a result of inactivity within AARCMCC. I do not place the blame for this solely on the people who have held executive positions of late, we all have to take some responsibility for planning a cohesive national structure. However, the executive leads that debate, and without people in those positions to put in the time to make things happen, other organisations step in at a regional level and have a run at things.
-----
Let's talk about cohesiveness across classes for a moment. What are our goals with class structure?
A national body must be concerned with developing drivers to ultimately compete on an international level, as well as growing numbers at grassroots level. Regional organisations do the latter but not the former. Stagnation and inactivity at a national level means you usually end up with the top classes reflecting the worlds classes but a broken pipeline feeding those classes. What to do?
We need a class structure that introduces new people to the hobby and then seemlessly feeds them into junior categories for the worlds classes. From there the talented drivers will go on to Modified level, and the career club racers should be able to have fun and be competitive at that mid-level maintaining strong club and regional racing in those categories.
What I'm trying to get at is the big picture. I don't think a lot of big picture thinking has gone into the present class structure, it's more developed organically. We have a culture at clubs that says, "whatever you guys want to race," no other sport does that. Yes, there needs to be fun classes at club level, these may change from time to time, and part of their job is attracting new people. But nobody plays international Kanga Cricket, no one plays French cricket outside their backyard, these forms of the game are learning tools to bring people in and introduce them to the main game.
The WC classes in EP ONR are ISTC10 and LMP12, the structure for TC nationally now is not too bad, though I still think it could be tweaked to differentiate better the learning category from Stock, but the other half is neglected. Minis and F1s and the like bring people into the sport, but what are we doing to use these as stepping stones to the other categories? It seems we make them 'just as valid' choices as anything else. Experienced racers stay in those categories then, without incentive to move on, and this doesn't leave much room for the next generation. It also deprives other categories of talented drivers.
Ok, so I've now written too many paragraphs, but the point is solving issue No.1 you mentioned requires a national approach, and it requires a national approach with the sort of big picture thinking I've outlined.
With a strong leadership in AARCMCC, issue No.2 will begin to solve itself, clubs will look to AARCMCC rather than a regional body. Issue No.3 can also be solved by a strong leadership in AARCMCC. It's almost trivial in comparison to the other issues. Personally I would love to see a calendar that integrates the 4 main sections of our hobby, and that assigns definite weekends as defaults for each championship.
To your 4th point. A lot of people at grass roots level couldn't care less about national unification, or state championships or national championships or even what the club next door is doing. But it does matter to them.
How does it matter? It matters when new driver X buys a car for class Y, only to find that class Y was a fad class which disappears in 6 months. Driver X leaves the hobby. It matters when drivers with years of experience have no desire to move on from entry level classes; the club scene suffers because you have these people dominating new people. It matters when other drivers with years of experience aren't being challenged at their club and leave. The best players in other sports are kept in those sports because they are encouraged to reach for the next level.
Just having a sensible national strategy that has a prestige hierarchy can do something for numbers at club level. But a pro-active national body can do a lot more. Look at what the BRCA has done by creating a separate 12th scale section and inventing the GT12 category. For those of you unfamiliar this is a category with very restrictive rules and mandated 100 pound limit on chassis cost, in this class you can go racing very cheaply, and it has produced hundreds of new racers that are now moving across to LMP12 and other classes of racing too. Without the army of people to work through the regulations and enforce the cost control it wouldn't work.
03-02-2014, 06:44 PM
#6
Parity
I have said for years we need to not only bring ALL states into the same rules and Specs be it run by one body or several bodies doesn't matter. And they should look at and implement after talking to racers who do go overseas and race as to what Motor ESC and body shells are run over there.
The reason why I say that is because
1) it is hard enough to set a car up for the traction that tracks overseas have High/Medium Low and size.
2) also to have to get use too a body change which gives a handling effect.
3) then they also have to get use to a new motor and what gearing to run.
4) also if certain ESC are involved then getting use to how they deliver the power which could change your motor FDR because of the heat that is created by how it works.
Just my 2 bits too try and make it easy not only inside Aussie which is the most important as racers will travel to other states and also to give those going overseas a fair chance, I know a good driver will adapt fairly quick but give them a chance to get their faster.
Noel
The reason why I say that is because
1) it is hard enough to set a car up for the traction that tracks overseas have High/Medium Low and size.
2) also to have to get use too a body change which gives a handling effect.
3) then they also have to get use to a new motor and what gearing to run.
4) also if certain ESC are involved then getting use to how they deliver the power which could change your motor FDR because of the heat that is created by how it works.
Just my 2 bits too try and make it easy not only inside Aussie which is the most important as racers will travel to other states and also to give those going overseas a fair chance, I know a good driver will adapt fairly quick but give them a chance to get their faster.
Noel
03-02-2014, 08:04 PM
#7
Tech Fanatic
. This is probably a more constructive way to go and a very good post, thank you for that.I believe in complete reform form top to bottom, what I mean by that is every State and Territory needs to create its own governing body, that's because local issues and laws can be more effectively addressed by locals e.g. Planning laws, Council bi laws and Grant applications from an advisory point of view.
From these Local governing bodies AARCMCC Qld, AARCMCC NSW, AARCMCC ACT to name a few hypothetically, you take one elected member from each as a representative to AARCMCC National. Which as a group of 7 elects it committee executive and forms as a NFP Corporation on a National basis.
This group runs Insurance and Co-ordinates rule sets and events and chooses as an impartial group who gets what in respect to State and National titles.
Rules can be debated at a State level as draughts to be forwarded to the National governing body to be adopted on their merits after debate based on feedback from all State groups.
I know this is a little bit broader then you initially asked for Scott, but the outcome will still be the same.
Regards Graham
03-02-2014, 08:16 PM
#8
One would think the reason behind there being several governing bodies is because the one size fits all doesnt work for all clubs and states. I would have thought that first and foremost each club gives its members what they want in terms of classes/rules etc.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
03-02-2014, 08:33 PM
#9
One would think the reason behind there being several governing bodies is because the one size fits all doesnt work for all clubs and states. I would have thought that first and foremost each club gives its members what they want in terms of classes/rules etc.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
You can have a national body and a national approach still with enough flexibility built in around club level.
03-02-2014, 08:47 PM
#10
One would think the reason behind there being several governing bodies is because the one size fits all doesnt work for all clubs and states. I would have thought that first and foremost each club gives its members what they want in terms of classes/rules etc.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
What works in one area may not work in another and this is why fundamentally it does not work having a central body trying to govern everyone.
What I am saying if our state rules are the same you can more easily run any major meet in Australia if you want, and if it lines up with OS specs then you have a better chance to do well.
What we run at club level is dependant on who turns up and what they want, at our club we run F1 running too the rules laid down nationally so anyone can race anywhere without being concerned about if they are legal, we also run once a month Lemans bodies on 2WD rear, we are also looking at Mini looking at a spec tire and after that we will be looking at what is common sense in hop ups and bodies, so it doesn't become to expensive to be competitive.
Club level run what you want, but if anyone wants to run a national title or race in other states while on hols then you can do so being use too the package you have.
Noel
03-02-2014, 09:05 PM
#11
From these Local governing bodies AARCMCC Qld, AARCMCC NSW, AARCMCC ACT to name a few hypothetically,
You can achieve this through direct membership to the State/National body or via registration to vote at some predetermined time before the voting date. Just show you are a member of an affiliated club and get voting rights.
03-02-2014, 09:20 PM
#12
Could I suggest that any restructuring of the national body would have to occur from inside it. As fun as it might be to speculate on alternate structures, it won't get us one jot closer to solving the issues Scott has asked about.
Let's think about things we can actually do. The simplest of which is to find someone* competent with enough free time and put them in charge. There is one person filling the 3 exec positions for AARCMCC EP ONR, and that person would resign in a heart beat if someone else wanted to do it.
*Or up to 3 people.
Let's think about things we can actually do. The simplest of which is to find someone* competent with enough free time and put them in charge. There is one person filling the 3 exec positions for AARCMCC EP ONR, and that person would resign in a heart beat if someone else wanted to do it.
*Or up to 3 people.
03-02-2014, 11:43 PM
#13
Could I suggest that any restructuring of the national body would have to occur from inside it. As fun as it might be to speculate on alternate structures, it won't get us one jot closer to solving the issues Scott has asked about.
Let's think about things we can actually do. The simplest of which is to find someone* competent with enough free time and put them in charge. There is one person filling the 3 exec positions for AARCMCC EP ONR, and that person would resign in a heart beat if someone else wanted to do it.
*Or up to 3 people.
Let's think about things we can actually do. The simplest of which is to find someone* competent with enough free time and put them in charge. There is one person filling the 3 exec positions for AARCMCC EP ONR, and that person would resign in a heart beat if someone else wanted to do it.
*Or up to 3 people.
And while Graham might be a rabid chiwawa in his dealings with AARCMCC, his views are ones that resonate though a lot of QLD RC, and those issues will need to be addressed if one wishes to bring them into the fold.
There are reasons why ORCCA, VORTEC et al, exist and remain strong and I think that examining those issues and understanding those fundamentals are essential to this debate. Because in the end, if you just slap a few band aids on this, and never address the underlying causes, we will be in this same position in a few years time with yet another breakaway splinter group doing its own thing.
Me, I am just a QLD toy car racer who wants to attend an AARCMCC QLD EP Titles and the Nationals in his own state. But i don't think we even have one EP club who is affiliated. So something has to give to have a truly national scene and the national executive seem unwilling or incapable of working with even one QLD club to make these things happen, so these are big issues that a simple fix of finding 3 people is not going to change anything much at all.
03-03-2014, 02:03 AM
#14
Tech Regular
iTrader: (6)
I think unification is a great idea. I think the idea of FAD classes removing people from the sport is also true. I started racing RC in Mini and to this day it is still the most fun class I have driven in. Recently we have had more people leaving mini than taking it up and the de-regulation at a "national" level has not helped. So whilst we might want racers to move on we need to keep the classes going that people find fun so that they don't turn into FAD classes and people leave rather than drive something else.
I personally like the reduced class idea however we have been spoilt here in VIC with a choice of regulated classes. Some rationalisation should in theory mean more people per class however we need to do this without leaving people without a class they want to drive in and as such leaving the sport. I can see the merits in lots of peoples view points as we discuss classes at club meets.
Overall I think most clubs are going in the right direction and I hope that we can bring everyone's thoughts together into something that makes Australia a better place to race RC cars.
Will...
I personally like the reduced class idea however we have been spoilt here in VIC with a choice of regulated classes. Some rationalisation should in theory mean more people per class however we need to do this without leaving people without a class they want to drive in and as such leaving the sport. I can see the merits in lots of peoples view points as we discuss classes at club meets.
Overall I think most clubs are going in the right direction and I hope that we can bring everyone's thoughts together into something that makes Australia a better place to race RC cars.
Will...
03-03-2014, 02:57 AM
#15
I posted a thread that valued all drivers in our RC fraternity, lots of people read it and no one posted. It was also posted in the subscribers thread and a couple of people acknowledged the values of "racing our scale model RC cars" not "RC Racing".
It shed some light on the general consensus of our on-road scene to be a hard core racing with rigid rules. That's fine with me because we only seriously race in sanctioned spec classes. The irony is, so few want to race the "real" specs and prefer their own flavour of racing and if it means it's good for the club, increases attendance, then it's a good thing in terms of a greater model RC community, but impossible to sanction nationally because there are just too many variations between the clubs and their members.
Scott, love your motives, I think this is far more philosophical a debate, more than just one wise, pragmatic and experienced RC mind can chair on his own. It's a good debate and I hope good things come from it... Nothing will change until change itself is adopted.
It shed some light on the general consensus of our on-road scene to be a hard core racing with rigid rules. That's fine with me because we only seriously race in sanctioned spec classes. The irony is, so few want to race the "real" specs and prefer their own flavour of racing and if it means it's good for the club, increases attendance, then it's a good thing in terms of a greater model RC community, but impossible to sanction nationally because there are just too many variations between the clubs and their members.
Scott, love your motives, I think this is far more philosophical a debate, more than just one wise, pragmatic and experienced RC mind can chair on his own. It's a good debate and I hope good things come from it... Nothing will change until change itself is adopted.