gameover

Since this was raised in another thread, i think it deserves it's own.

AARCMCC sections 3.3.0 - 3.3.7 are very clear and basically no datalogging of any kind is allowed.

http://www.aarcmcc.org/docs/Electric...0July%2008.pdf

IFMAR rules (section 4.6) are basically the same, not surprising considering AARCMCC rules are based on them.

http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/rules/ifmar...track_2010.pdf

This leads to the issue that some new ESC's have datalogging features built in (eg. GM) as do some popular radio's. (eg. Spektrum DX3S). I think some speedies can act on temperature data (reduce timing, limit RPM). In fact a brushless ESC could be considered illegal as an RPM "sensor" is obviously part of it's design. lol.

I always interpreted the spirit of these rules to mean "such that the driver could not make any active decisions based on the data DURING a race". I think a lot of people see it that way, but obviously the rules are very clear, nothing is allowed.

How to deal with this? Having this data is a pretty big advantage. Ban speedies? I'm pretty sure these speedies have been used at many very large races already. I came across a racer using the DX3S datalogger to monitor motor temps and hence make gearing changes. Who can even look at their radio during a race anyway?

Thoughts?

ozzy-crawl

iTrader: (14)

technicly what the dx3s does is not "data logging" as its giving real time telemetry,the temps etc can have a pre set that sets an alarm of if a certain temp is reached.
i dont think there is any data logging/telemtry out there that allows any body to make on the fly adjusments to the esc/motor as far as timing etc.
but there is nothing stopping people outside a sanctioned race sorting there car out with data loggers
i realise that there trying to keep costs down and make a even playing field but to ban such things as temp sensores is stupid imo, as they can save a persons gear.
with restrictions people always create ways around them,it may not be long till we get esc,s that change them selves during a race

ShadowAu

iTrader: (7)

Actually no... there is no RPM "sensor"... best guess based on information found online is the RPM is derived from reading the Hall sensors... its actually quite complicated...I am led to believe thats why Tekin has had the jump on the other ESC manufacturers as they have come up with the best way of doing it..

I personally don't have an issue with using data-logging in unofficial practice... and I don't have a problem with the automatic features of ESC's etc as long as the DRIVER cannot access/modify them DURING the race... and actually rule 3.3.5 says "A mechanical or electronic speed controller may include a mechanical or electronic device to limit the current/voltage passed from the batteries to the drive motor (eg timed delay, current limiter, keyboard programs). Setting or programming of such a device must only be possible whilst the car is stationary".
...there is no definition of what that limiter can use to determine its action as long as the PROGRAM cannot be changed during the race... so a limiter that might use temperature is technically not illegal as long as it doesn't use an external sensor (3.3.1).

Current ESC can't be considered illegal as they don't use external sensors... the rules don't actually restrict what can be internal... and given that sensored brushless motors are allowed Hall sensors (Phase) and a temp sensor (AAECMCC ELECTRIC MOTOR & BATTERY RULES 4.1.3) there is nothing illegal about them

gameover

yeah of course i agree about the RPM sensor thing, was just illustrating the extreme and the ambiguity. I also realise that the motor rules and the sensor wire includes a pin for a temp sensor, lol.

The concern is this. Some speedies can now "record" various important things about the performance and operation of your vehicle, and a few of these things are mentioned by name as not allowed by the rules. eg. motor speed, wheel speed (derived from motor speed) and temperature. You can probably safely add battery voltage, current, mAh and look forward a bit to things like motor acceleration/deceleration rates which can be used as forms of traction control (again specifically banned), the throttle servo is plugged into the speedy so can record throttle/brake position there's lots of useful things to help you make your next run better than the last. Add a decent serial eeprom, a surface mount 2 axis g-force sensor and we're all sitting around like v8 supercar teams watching wiggly lines on a laptop...

It is all very useful stuff, i use the Novak logger during practice for exactly these kinds of things especially dialing in a Tekin setup for a track etc. Being able to see 4 things: throttle/brake, current, rpm and motor temp helps a lot. All these things the speedy has access to and can potentially record.

This is the second part of the ESC software animal, the first part has already been unleashed and blindsided rulemakers hopefully this one doesn't go down the same path. Rules need to be made clearer i think.

I'd actually like to see some motor related things allowed to be logged via speedy, then all mfgr's can include those features and nothing else. eg. RPM, voltage, current, temp.

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

That's exactly the type of thing the rules are designed to prevent. You are free to use these types of features in unofficial practice, but once the event has started they are off limits.

With a lot of AARCMCC rules it isn't clear what the objective is. That's not the case here, as the first sentence actually says "It is the objective of this rule to ensure that sanctioned Electric Circuit Events be a test of driver skill." and then it goes on to define data-logging as something that takes away from "driver skill".

There is no problem with a pre-programmed ESC using feedback as part of its operation. What isn't allowed is for the driver/pit-crew to be able to see data from the ESC or any other device either during or after the race. The rule (3.3.1) is there to prevent people from being able to use data as a set-up aid. 3.3.5 also clarifies that adjustments to the program aren't permitted during a race. What constitutes programming is an interesting question, but there is a good rule of thumb you can follow: if you can't do it with a 2CH radio during a race, then it's programming.

I think these rules makes it pretty clear that any device that logs data is not allowed. The fact that it is a function built into the ESC doesn't matter.

What will upset people is that just not using the data-logging feature is not a defence: you will still be disqualified. The reason the rule has to be like this is a scrutineer can't take the driver's word for it that they won't look at the data. So long as the ESC (or other device) logged the data then it is potentially usable, and therefore impossible to police in the pits. The only way around this, in my mind, is to be able to disable data-logging and have it obvious to a scrutineer that this has been done.

I'll just post the regulations here so others don't have to go to the AARCMCC website:

Dragonfire

iTrader: (1)

At the end of the day there are only two truly use bits of data to log (lap times and temps) and you don't need a fancy system for that.

gameover

i agree 100% and also agree that is the "spirit of the rules".

My concern is that we will ignore the issue (just like timing advance ESC's) and that ESC mfgr's will develop these features (i know one already has) unless an example is set early on. These speedies are being used in national and international events already.

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

I share your concern. Traditionally the RC community puts its head in the sand when it comes to rules enforcement in this country (I don't know about internationally). In this case the problem is that scrutineers aren't properly educated.

Scrutineers have traditionally had to self educate. It would be helpful if the national body could issue a list of ESCs known to contravene the rules, but they have plenty to do already for volunteers.

It seems all we can reasonably hope for is for a scrutineer to do their homework and then have the guts to disqualify people. A few people disqualified at a State or National event would quickly change the situation.

Guaranteed there is somebody reading this now thinking 'but that would be unfair...' and that's a cultural problem for RC. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure they comply with the regulations. If I, as a batsman, knock the ball away from the stumps with my hand in a cricket game, saying I didn't know I could be out that way, or that the last umpire didn't give me out would make me look pretty pathetic. The same should apply here.

We are reluctant to disqualify people in these situations, but if we don't soon everyone will have to have an ESC that does data-logging, because you can bet that the ESCs with this feature will be the best in other ways too. We will all want the best ESC, and once all the data-logging ESCs are out there it won't be long before someone is sneaking off to check their data, and then the snowball will have gathered too much momentum to be stopped.

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

I just checked out the IFMAR regulations linked to earlier. They are a little different to AARCMCC rules. Data logging by ESCs might be ok under IFMAR regs.

blis

I mentioned the benefits of a programmable interface for the betterment of controlled classes and event management and somehow it was interpreted as data logging.

In Sim Racing online, they created one checksum based control system to prevent cheating and bring everyone onto par. As for logging, I'm not sure what it is you need to log that the timing system doesn't do already. Someone mention temps, well Im for not see and smelling the "SMOKE"

What is needed is a common protocol and interface and set of parameters for all on the speedies so the parity and spec problems go away with race controlled configurations.

I think it was wise to move on from steam car racing... Ive got a few old cassettes and my Vinyl collection is just memorabilia. Ya never know, if we embrace the technology oneday Apple might make an ISpeedy!

gameover

If you take a look at plane ESC's there are increasing numbers that include flight dataloggers. For cars, the only one i know that has very basic datalogging, showing maximums and averages of things like RPM, speed, current, temp is the GM 120.

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

Blis, I didn't mean to rubbish your idea on the other thread. It's an interesting idea. Just your post made me think of this rule, and caused me to wonder if anyone was breaking it already. It may be that what you envision is the way of the future, but I was thinking of the practicalities of right now.

Dragonfire

iTrader: (1)

Well here is some food for thought. According to the rules it is illegal to "use" such features but is it illegal to use a device equiped with said features? Just cause you have it does not mean you are using it.

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

Actually, no (if we are talking about the AARCMCC regs.). It says they can't be fitted to the car while it is in motion.

blis

Radio Active.. all good and a debate is important.

Im just pointing out that if the manufacturers play ball and create a standard interface we might have a chance to detune etc from the event management point of view.

For instance at a meeting if not enough for all classes, we could tune up or down for various motor windings to suit a meeting.

Yes for now, it's a major point of debate and it's gonna take some time I think