Serpent 710
01-16-2004, 03:22 AM
#3016
Tech Fanatic
Originally posted by ammdrew
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
I have more fun in my racing hours...
Im trying to put my 710 to its limit.
Do you think that 10 deg. split is good ? Im not ackerman expert (in fact Im no Rudolf sons
) so please tell me.About the bump steer is usually never considered a good thing.. Im not so sure about this.
But in front suspension of a car that having a caster angle, bump steer is always present. How much ?? than we will start a geometri design thread
In rear, we must ask Rene.... coz he was the first man to put this in rear.
01-16-2004, 03:25 AM
#3017
Tech Fanatic
Re: Steering Arms
Originally posted by JABRONI
Originally Posted By Goldfinger:
I kind of feel the same way, and appears to make sense !!
I would also like some input on this issue !!! Ideas/Tips/Trick/Good/Bad ????
Originally Posted By Goldfinger:
I kind of feel the same way, and appears to make sense !!
I would also like some input on this issue !!! Ideas/Tips/Trick/Good/Bad ????
01-16-2004, 05:27 AM
#3018
Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by InitialD
This is what Bruno Heeramans has got to say about Ackerman...
A large Ackermann angle (ball joints above the servo saver) gives you smooth, predictable steering. You'll be able to round the corners nicely without all four tires trying to force the car in a different direction. A smaller Ackermann angle (ball joints below the servo saver) on the other hand can give you more aggressive steering, aspecially entering the corners. However, it isn't guaranteed that the front won't wash out now and then. Neither is a smooth cornering radius. It can be useful an high-traction tracks, if your car tends to oversteer in the middle of the corners, and you'd like a little more turn-in. Not to mention the psychological impact on the person driving right in front of you when you're entering corners.
This is what Bruno Heeramans has got to say about Ackerman...
A large Ackermann angle (ball joints above the servo saver) gives you smooth, predictable steering. You'll be able to round the corners nicely without all four tires trying to force the car in a different direction. A smaller Ackermann angle (ball joints below the servo saver) on the other hand can give you more aggressive steering, aspecially entering the corners. However, it isn't guaranteed that the front won't wash out now and then. Neither is a smooth cornering radius. It can be useful an high-traction tracks, if your car tends to oversteer in the middle of the corners, and you'd like a little more turn-in. Not to mention the psychological impact on the person driving right in front of you when you're entering corners.
We didn't design the car without thinking about ackerman. There is a reason the balls are below the saver
Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
01-16-2004, 05:29 AM
#3019
Originally posted by ammdrew
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
01-16-2004, 05:34 AM
#3020
Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation
Originally posted by InitialD
Rene / Julius or anybody,
Is 35wt shock oil with 4 holes the same as 40wt shock oil with 5 holes in terms of shock damping?
How does the 5 hole shock (the fifth hole being 1.2 mm in diameter if I'm not mistaken) throw into the equation? Why was this done? Thanks.
Rene / Julius or anybody,
Is 35wt shock oil with 4 holes the same as 40wt shock oil with 5 holes in terms of shock damping?
How does the 5 hole shock (the fifth hole being 1.2 mm in diameter if I'm not mistaken) throw into the equation? Why was this done? Thanks.
The 5th hole is the same size as the others. It was done so you'd have 2-5 holes instead of 1-4 holes. This means the adjusment steps are smaller. The initial damping is slightly softer (always 2 holes).
01-16-2004, 06:20 AM
#3021
Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by Julius
This is only usefull info if you define large and small.....
We didn't design the car without thinking about ackerman. There is a reason the balls are below the saver Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
This is only usefull info if you define large and small.....
We didn't design the car without thinking about ackerman. There is a reason the balls are below the saver
Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
Will try mounting the ball linkage below the servo saver this weekend.
01-16-2004, 06:31 AM
#3022
Re: Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation
Originally posted by Julius
The 5th hole is the same size as the others.
The 5th hole is the same size as the others.
If I recall, the extra 5th hole on the piston shocks was slightly larger. I can't remember where I put the pic which I thought I took in the hotel room in Thailand while preparing the shocks in the ungodly hour !
01-16-2004, 07:06 AM
#3023
Originally posted by InitialD
Thaasman's the man !
Thaasman's the man !
Glad we helped rcjavy with he's problem......
01-16-2004, 07:25 AM
#3024
Re: Re: Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation
Originally posted by InitialD
Are the holes the same size (1 mm) as the previous older 1-4 hole shocks?
If I recall, the extra 5th hole on the piston shocks was slightly larger. I can't remember where I put the pic which I thought I took in the hotel room in Thailand while preparing the shocks in the ungodly hour !
Are the holes the same size (1 mm) as the previous older 1-4 hole shocks?
If I recall, the extra 5th hole on the piston shocks was slightly larger. I can't remember where I put the pic which I thought I took in the hotel room in Thailand while preparing the shocks in the ungodly hour !
01-16-2004, 07:51 AM
#3025
Tech Fanatic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by Julius
Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
On top is absolutely better low speed steering (completely off throttle), bellow is better when partial throttle has to be applied to corners faster. Out corner is about the same, not enough steering.
Truly, when starting this ackerman thingy, my point is 25 deg turn for inside tire is more than enough. But in middle of corner when throttle has to be applied (partial/full) the weight is fully loaded in outside tire. And as you can see, they only able to turns 15 to 17 deg(max).I can only gain 17 deg. with all caster spacer in front.
Which is in my opinion... is not enough.
Julius, is there any chance that Serpent will release optional ackerman arm ? (But dont do 710R..
)
01-16-2004, 08:03 AM
#3026
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by GoldFinger
Truly, when starting this ackerman thingy, my point is 25 deg turn for inside tire is more than enough. But in middle of corner when throttle has to be applied (partial/full) the weight is fully loaded in outside tire. And as you can see, they only able to turns 15 to 17 deg(max).I can only gain 17 deg. with all caster spacer in front.
Which is in my opinion... is not enough.
Truly, when starting this ackerman thingy, my point is 25 deg turn for inside tire is more than enough. But in middle of corner when throttle has to be applied (partial/full) the weight is fully loaded in outside tire. And as you can see, they only able to turns 15 to 17 deg(max).I can only gain 17 deg. with all caster spacer in front.
Which is in my opinion... is not enough.
01-16-2004, 08:14 AM
#3027
Tech Fanatic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by Julius
The question is. Would you get more steering with more steering lock?
The question is. Would you get more steering with more steering lock?
01-16-2004, 08:29 AM
#3028
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by GoldFinger
Pls describe more about "steering lock". I dont understand on this.
Pls describe more about "steering lock". I dont understand on this.
Maybe getting more steering lock/angle will only give more slip on the front wheels and no increase in steering.
01-16-2004, 08:49 AM
#3029
Tech Fanatic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand
Originally posted by Julius
Steering lock = steering angle.
Maybe getting more steering lock/angle will only give more slip on the front wheels and no increase in steering.
Steering lock = steering angle.
Maybe getting more steering lock/angle will only give more slip on the front wheels and no increase in steering.
Yesterday, me and Pyramid is trying to figure out how to change this ackerman. But we ended up that there is no space anymore.
The ball will hit the pulley or bulkhead if we change from current config.
I guess we have to work out in other area.
Have you ever try to swap the knuckles? is there any changes?
If I remember in 705,nothing changes. Only wider track widht.
01-16-2004, 09:24 AM
#3030
Originally posted by Julius
Although you are right in that moving the balls on top introduces bump steer, it also changes the ackerman slightly because the servo saver and steering hub do not rotate around the same axis (due to camber, caster and offset).
Although you are right in that moving the balls on top introduces bump steer, it also changes the ackerman slightly because the servo saver and steering hub do not rotate around the same axis (due to camber, caster and offset).
This is about as easy to visualize as a 5th dimension!Thank God for CAD!