ROAR to 4 cell....
11-24-2006, 12:45 AM
#226
JMRCA has the 4cell rule ONLY for one race!!!
EFRA has the 5cell for all races.
Main reason/difference between the blocks is track size. Good or bad our tracks are huge, build for 1/8 or even 1/5 classes so the stress we put on our equipment is much more than anywere else
ie ratio for the shortest layout in my track is 6.7 with a 9turn motor and 6 with 12T. I bet most of you haven't used that ratio before
With todays batteries and BL motors speed is there (might not be the case with brushed motors but who cares, let's run BL). Most people would buy new motor/batteries per season, this time instead of buying the same as last year we will buy another one, so costwise is not much difference.
With the BL also you have more time to spend to your car instead on your motor between heats. This will also lead to decrease the time needed for a race or increase the heats for race (whatever people want)
If going to 5cell will have less wear, similar speed I'm for it and this is the reason we will also enforce that rule to Greece, at least for the open modified class.
One very important point is, why do you care about ROAR ruling? Why would track owners change their rules? Make a poll to your club and decide what YOU want to race.
If someone from your club wants to compete on a ROAR event THEN he/she will have to follow the rules
Those bodies make rules as guidelines, track owners should use them and change them according to what people need/want
Nick
EFRA has the 5cell for all races.
Main reason/difference between the blocks is track size. Good or bad our tracks are huge, build for 1/8 or even 1/5 classes so the stress we put on our equipment is much more than anywere else
ie ratio for the shortest layout in my track is 6.7 with a 9turn motor and 6 with 12T. I bet most of you haven't used that ratio before
With todays batteries and BL motors speed is there (might not be the case with brushed motors but who cares, let's run BL). Most people would buy new motor/batteries per season, this time instead of buying the same as last year we will buy another one, so costwise is not much difference.
With the BL also you have more time to spend to your car instead on your motor between heats. This will also lead to decrease the time needed for a race or increase the heats for race (whatever people want)
If going to 5cell will have less wear, similar speed I'm for it and this is the reason we will also enforce that rule to Greece, at least for the open modified class.
One very important point is, why do you care about ROAR ruling? Why would track owners change their rules? Make a poll to your club and decide what YOU want to race.
If someone from your club wants to compete on a ROAR event THEN he/she will have to follow the rules
Those bodies make rules as guidelines, track owners should use them and change them according to what people need/want
Nick
11-24-2006, 12:47 AM
#228
There's no doubt this whole thing has been spurred by the changes in IFMAR etc. I also agree that very few of us will ever compete at the World's races, but I feel it would be foolish to venture away from the standardized rules that are currently being established. (at least as far as racing goes) I'm just as American as anyone here, but from a marketing and business standpoint, it just doesn't make sense to stray. Conversely, if we worked together and supported our NATIONAL sanctioning body we would probably have a lot more sayso in what goes on, and hence we would have some bias on the standard international rules.
I can see why ROAR doesn't get in a big hurry to spread the word on things they are looking into changing. I mean, look what happens EVERY TIME. C'mon guys, quit bashing and calling names and think of a positive way to deal with the situation at hand.
Raf- Even though I like you, and I certainly have a blast hangin with you at the big races (when I get to go occassionally), I don't appreciate your blanket remarks. The down right truth is exactly opposite of what you said. What I know, and the amount of knowlege I have is sometimes not very well represented by my poor communication skills. I just type the thoughts that come out my head...lol. I don't have that built-in cognative ability to write a great speech as I go along... but I'm not blabbing about a buncha crap I know very little about. But I forgive you...
Bob I wasn't implying that at all... I was actually serious. I know from reading your posts for the last 5 or 6 years that you are passionate about this hobby.
Derek once again, please go back and read my point about the batteries. You keep talking about heat and compounding negative aspects... but I think you missed the part about wattage and weight. It goes right along with what Danny is saying- the voltages are higher now as well as the capacities. Maybe I can over simplify my point in case some one isn't following...
batteries from 2 years ago- 3.7 ah x 1.16AV = 4.292watt hours. (per cell)
today's IB cells- 4.3ah x 1.24AV = 5.332watt hours /cell.
the watt hours is the energy that we have to use. Assuming the heat and loads weren't a problem, we could literally run three 2cell packs and go as fast as we go now with 6cell packs. Here's the reason in theory-
6cell in series- (1.24av/cell * 6 = 7.44AV) * 4.3ah = 31.992watt hours (total energy)
three 2cell packs- (1.24AV/cell * 2 = 2.48AV) * (4.3ah/cell * 3 = 12.9ah) = 31.992 watt hours.
Same amount of total energy. Please forgive the over-simplification, but sometimes it's easier to see it than figure it on your own. Now given, the 2x3 pack would need a LOT bigger pinion, but it would be about the same. Now, reduce the weight of the car. Less mass = less energy needed to retain the same power to weight ratio. We can't hack a few mm off the bottoms of the cells and reduce the capacity, so let's reduce the voltage by one cell. We know from experience that less energy means less heat and better efficiency, so if we can keep the same performance by keeping the power to weight ratio the same (Advil- read; not slower) while reducing the energy used, we reduce the heat. We will also reduce heat loss and other less important stuff, but the key is that the motors and batteries will last LONGER, not shorter times. So now that I'm not burning up my EA custom tuned 19t because it's coming off the track at 240 geared 5.60, but my car is turning laptimes just as fast as it did with a 6cell, hmmmmm maybe I can go up a few teeth- why, yes, now that Im starting to tune the car for the 4cell or 5 cell setup, it's actually going faster!!! LMAO.
I know that was a little corny, but you get the picture.
I'm so tired I'm delirious.
P.S.- I would really enjoy these discussions a lot more if we could stay on a more positive note. I would also participate more if they didn't get so negative. My Daddy always says "you can attract a lot more flies with honey than vinegar"
I can see why ROAR doesn't get in a big hurry to spread the word on things they are looking into changing. I mean, look what happens EVERY TIME. C'mon guys, quit bashing and calling names and think of a positive way to deal with the situation at hand.
Raf- Even though I like you, and I certainly have a blast hangin with you at the big races (when I get to go occassionally), I don't appreciate your blanket remarks. The down right truth is exactly opposite of what you said. What I know, and the amount of knowlege I have is sometimes not very well represented by my poor communication skills. I just type the thoughts that come out my head...lol. I don't have that built-in cognative ability to write a great speech as I go along... but I'm not blabbing about a buncha crap I know very little about. But I forgive you...
Bob I wasn't implying that at all... I was actually serious. I know from reading your posts for the last 5 or 6 years that you are passionate about this hobby.
Derek once again, please go back and read my point about the batteries. You keep talking about heat and compounding negative aspects... but I think you missed the part about wattage and weight. It goes right along with what Danny is saying- the voltages are higher now as well as the capacities. Maybe I can over simplify my point in case some one isn't following...
batteries from 2 years ago- 3.7 ah x 1.16AV = 4.292watt hours. (per cell)
today's IB cells- 4.3ah x 1.24AV = 5.332watt hours /cell.
the watt hours is the energy that we have to use. Assuming the heat and loads weren't a problem, we could literally run three 2cell packs and go as fast as we go now with 6cell packs. Here's the reason in theory-
6cell in series- (1.24av/cell * 6 = 7.44AV) * 4.3ah = 31.992watt hours (total energy)
three 2cell packs- (1.24AV/cell * 2 = 2.48AV) * (4.3ah/cell * 3 = 12.9ah) = 31.992 watt hours.
Same amount of total energy. Please forgive the over-simplification, but sometimes it's easier to see it than figure it on your own. Now given, the 2x3 pack would need a LOT bigger pinion, but it would be about the same. Now, reduce the weight of the car. Less mass = less energy needed to retain the same power to weight ratio. We can't hack a few mm off the bottoms of the cells and reduce the capacity, so let's reduce the voltage by one cell. We know from experience that less energy means less heat and better efficiency, so if we can keep the same performance by keeping the power to weight ratio the same (Advil- read; not slower)
while reducing the energy used, we reduce the heat. We will also reduce heat loss and other less important stuff, but the key is that the motors and batteries will last LONGER, not shorter times. So now that I'm not burning up my EA custom tuned 19t because it's coming off the track at 240 geared 5.60, but my car is turning laptimes just as fast as it did with a 6cell, hmmmmm maybe I can go up a few teeth- why, yes, now that Im starting to tune the car for the 4cell or 5 cell setup, it's actually going faster!!! LMAO.I know that was a little corny, but you get the picture.
I'm so tired I'm delirious.
P.S.- I would really enjoy these discussions a lot more if we could stay on a more positive note. I would also participate more if they didn't get so negative. My Daddy always says "you can attract a lot more flies with honey than vinegar"
11-24-2006, 12:47 AM
#229
Tech Master
I was wondering....Why not let IFMAR make up its mind on how many cells to run, then the rest follow suit. Won't that be easier...? 
11-24-2006, 12:48 AM
#230
Originally Posted by MrUnlimited
All sanctioned bodies like ROAR, EFRA and JMRCA are switching to 4 or 5 cells packs. Main question i: what number of cells will the IFMAR allow for stock, 19t or mod. IFMAR already allowed brushless for racing as well as the other sanctioned bodies. We have seen in the past year 27t stock were 23t stock in Japan. What will do the 19t class? Will that be changed to 15t for brushed motors?
IFMAR have no rules for 27t or 19t, if you race at the worlds, you race Mod.
11-24-2006, 12:55 AM
#231
Originally Posted by pookat
IFMAR have no rules for 27t or 19t, if you race at the worlds, you race Mod.
11-24-2006, 01:04 AM
#232
Originally Posted by MrUnlimited
I know that, but what I liked to tell is that the number of motorturns in racing has changed over the years. 28 years ago we used AYK based stock motors with 30turns for our red 1200scr.
Main question i: what number of cells will the IFMAR allow for stock, 19t or mod.
11-24-2006, 01:30 AM
#233
I've read alot, but not ALL of the comments on this thread...
I've said this before, and I'll say it here.
We went to 4 cell in OVAL to slow the cars down Not to save money, although it did but racers who had $100.00 a week to spend...were still going to spend it.
It was done for a list of reasons, but the most important was probably the one I'll put at the top of the list.
A) BETTER RACING through CAR CONTROL
Did it work? Yes. Did it revive OVAL racing to what kind of numbers it had in the 80's? No! Will it ever? Probably NOT. Did it increase the numbers or MODIFIED Oval Racers Nationwide? NO, actually it's been about 8 years and the number of MOD OVAL racers has decreased nationally (But that is more because not too many FACTORY TEAMS support Oval anymore.) Is OVAL racing DEAD in the US? No, there are hundreds of OVAL racers still in the US, we just can't seem to get more than 75 of them together at the same place (Except the 'birds)
Will 4 cell be the DEATH of TC racing in the US? ONLY if THE Racers let it be
I've heard dozens argue about the SLOWING DOWN, the LOWER COSTS, and I know some of the Motor guys pushed for this a few years back to SELL MOD MOTORS...cause Mod 6 cell is NOT as big as they would like it to be...and I know a lot of MOTOR BUILDERS would rather have FACTORY MODIFIED DRIVERS instead of CHERRY PICKING FACTORY STOCK GUYS, besides...MOTOR BUILDERS don't really Build STOCK MOTORS and a GOOD Mod motor has a way better profit margin....
I do make this challenge...
On any 'mid-size' carpet or asphalt TC track. I want to see one or two of the TOP LEVEL Local Drivers (Preferrably one running Mod Brushless) use the NoVAK B/L 3.5 w/ a 4 cell 4200 pack and go Head to Head against a couple of 6 cell Mod cars. Make sure to gear the 4 cell car up enough to account for the 33% drop in RPM due to the drop of 2 cells. (Probably 7 - 10 teeth)
I'm NOT interested to see Who Wins actually. I'm MORE interested to see a complete list of compared Side by Side lap times. ( I KNOW the 6 cell car will ROCKET away from the 4 cell car on straights and coming off corners) But what will be the LAP TIME difference. That is what TIMED racing is made of...
I've said this before, and I'll say it here.
We went to 4 cell in OVAL to slow the cars down Not to save money, although it did but racers who had $100.00 a week to spend...were still going to spend it.
It was done for a list of reasons, but the most important was probably the one I'll put at the top of the list.
A) BETTER RACING through CAR CONTROL
Did it work? Yes. Did it revive OVAL racing to what kind of numbers it had in the 80's? No! Will it ever? Probably NOT. Did it increase the numbers or MODIFIED Oval Racers Nationwide? NO, actually it's been about 8 years and the number of MOD OVAL racers has decreased nationally (But that is more because not too many FACTORY TEAMS support Oval anymore.) Is OVAL racing DEAD in the US? No, there are hundreds of OVAL racers still in the US, we just can't seem to get more than 75 of them together at the same place (Except the 'birds)
Will 4 cell be the DEATH of TC racing in the US? ONLY if THE Racers let it be
I've heard dozens argue about the SLOWING DOWN, the LOWER COSTS, and I know some of the Motor guys pushed for this a few years back to SELL MOD MOTORS...cause Mod 6 cell is NOT as big as they would like it to be...and I know a lot of MOTOR BUILDERS would rather have FACTORY MODIFIED DRIVERS instead of CHERRY PICKING FACTORY STOCK GUYS, besides...MOTOR BUILDERS don't really Build STOCK MOTORS and a GOOD Mod motor has a way better profit margin....
I do make this challenge...
On any 'mid-size' carpet or asphalt TC track. I want to see one or two of the TOP LEVEL Local Drivers (Preferrably one running Mod Brushless) use the NoVAK B/L 3.5 w/ a 4 cell 4200 pack and go Head to Head against a couple of 6 cell Mod cars. Make sure to gear the 4 cell car up enough to account for the 33% drop in RPM due to the drop of 2 cells. (Probably 7 - 10 teeth)
I'm NOT interested to see Who Wins actually. I'm MORE interested to see a complete list of compared Side by Side lap times. ( I KNOW the 6 cell car will ROCKET away from the 4 cell car on straights and coming off corners) But what will be the LAP TIME difference. That is what TIMED racing is made of...
11-24-2006, 01:37 AM
#234
Originally Posted by DerekB
One could make an assumption that battery companies make a certain percentage of profit off each cell sold, so selling one less per pack yeilds the loss of one "sale" after every six packs sold, and therefore a market adjustment would be in order to gain that 16% loss in profit up.
Actually a very good assumption phrased wrong.
Actually a very good assumption phrased wrong.
I'm not going back to pay $79.99 for 4 cells, thank you very much.
11-24-2006, 01:42 AM
#235
Originally Posted by BigDogRacing
Same amount of total energy. Please forgive the over-simplification, but sometimes it's easier to see it than figure it on your own. Now given, the 2x3 pack would need a LOT bigger pinion, but it would be about the same. Now, reduce the weight of the car. Less mass = less energy needed to retain the same power to weight ratio. We can't hack a few mm off the bottoms of the cells and reduce the capacity, so let's reduce the voltage by one cell. We know from experience that less energy means less heat and better efficiency, so if we can keep the same performance by keeping the power to weight ratio the same (Advil- read; not slower) while reducing the energy used, we reduce the heat. We will also reduce heat loss and other less important stuff, but the key is that the motors and batteries will last LONGER, not shorter times. So now that I'm not burning up my EA custom tuned 19t because it's coming off the track at 240 geared 5.60, but my car is turning laptimes just as fast as it did with a 6cell, hmmmmm maybe I can go up a few teeth- why, yes, now that Im starting to tune the car for the 4cell or 5 cell setup, it's actually going faster!!! LMAO.
while reducing the energy used, we reduce the heat. We will also reduce heat loss and other less important stuff, but the key is that the motors and batteries will last LONGER, not shorter times. So now that I'm not burning up my EA custom tuned 19t because it's coming off the track at 240 geared 5.60, but my car is turning laptimes just as fast as it did with a 6cell, hmmmmm maybe I can go up a few teeth- why, yes, now that Im starting to tune the car for the 4cell or 5 cell setup, it's actually going faster!!! LMAO.The concern from my post above seems to be reflected in your example. I know you have provided a very simplified version, so it isn't worth debating details, but your general approach is probably what most racers will do. Any benefit you see from the reduced voltage and weight, will be countered by pushing your new setup harder. If the motors do run cooler due to the voltage drop, racers will then gear up until they again reach the edge, which from your example would be 240*. If racers could control themselves and just let the benefits of lower voltage stand on their own, then I could see that equipment could last longer. But I have not met many racers that would leave the potential power on the table. If they could, we would not be dealing with motors being run as hot as they are now. That is the part that I am having trouble understanding with the possible changes. Is it just not possible to gear a 19T or mod motor to run at an acceptable temperature with the current 6C packs? Or is it only when they are geared high to keep up with other racers that they overheat? This is an honest question for anyone, as maybe I am missing the reasons for the current motor failures.
11-24-2006, 01:49 AM
#236
Originally Posted by gotyournumber
The argument is not about speed, it is about being told you can no longer run 6 cells with out any say so. What country do we live in.........the USA. Americans are a democratic society, we vote. This is why most of us are pissed off. There are people on this forum that will try to shift the real issue, we did not vote this in or even ask for it. Lets stop arguing about speed and say” I DID NOT VOTE FOR THIS CHANGE, WE AMREICANS DONT LIKE TO BE TOLD WHAT WE HAVE TO DO”. This ROAR needs to here its members.
Lets the europeans play 5 cells and japanese 4 cells...... I give them 1 year before they go outrage.
I stick with 6 cells but I also vote for longer race time.
11-24-2006, 02:28 AM
#237
Shall we vote now ?
Let me be the 1st man to vote : 6 cells.
Let me be the 1st man to vote : 6 cells.
11-24-2006, 02:51 AM
#238
If the ROAR excomm is bent on making all TC 4 cell it will to s-l-o-w for stock.Thus will push even more people away from the organization.Extending the run times will help like what was suggested many months ago.Just how long do you think it will take to get the speeds back up.
Leave stock and 19t with 6 cells and do something with the mod.I would still increase the run times to 6 minutes in stock and 19t- possibly 7 minutes.We've been running stock for 6 minutes for a year and starting the same with 19t next year.
Leave stock and 19t with 6 cells and do something with the mod.I would still increase the run times to 6 minutes in stock and 19t- possibly 7 minutes.We've been running stock for 6 minutes for a year and starting the same with 19t next year.
11-24-2006, 06:08 AM
#239
There is nothing that will force local track to adopt ROAR rules and move to 4-cell (if this does happen) except the inevitable change to 4-cell chassis platforms (if this is the direction IFMAR also adopts)...
The argument that keeps coming up is brushless....I'm curious about the special rules exceptions allowed for brushless...This situation seems rather similar to the 'surprise' inclusion of BL motors into the mod class last year...I also seem to recall that thesame BL motors were the ones suffering the most from thermal shutdown at many of the major racers.
Is this proposed change for the benefit of racers and racing in general, or for the benefit of the BL manufacturers? Unfortunately, I suspect the latter....and at the expense of the former.
The argument that keeps coming up is brushless....I'm curious about the special rules exceptions allowed for brushless...This situation seems rather similar to the 'surprise' inclusion of BL motors into the mod class last year...I also seem to recall that thesame BL motors were the ones suffering the most from thermal shutdown at many of the major racers.
Is this proposed change for the benefit of racers and racing in general, or for the benefit of the BL manufacturers? Unfortunately, I suspect the latter....and at the expense of the former.
11-24-2006, 06:50 AM
#240
Backfire- yes, it's possible, but not gonna happen. Thank you for reminding me that I didn't follow through with my whole explanation though. One of my main points was that by reducing both the weight and the voltage, effectively reducing overall watt consumption, we can most likely get back to the point where we start gearing to find the "sweet spot" in the motor, and not just gearing to keep the motor from self destructing.
For those just picking up on this discussion, let me restate that I'm not testing 4cell TC at this moment, and I'm still neutral to the idea. In all of my theory (which from the looks of other's testing is pretty close to being accurate) the most important thing for us as racers to do is evaluate, discuss, and help promote the hobby no matter what the final decision is. There's too many "if I can't have it my way, I'm going home" attitudes out there. I've even been guilty of it in the past, but it didn't benefit our local racing, and it won't benefit the hobby on a larger scale either. If we accept the reality that there will be times when Jason or Derek or Newbie or Baker won't get their way, but we still choose to work together, this hobby could shoot straight through the roof. But as history usually repeats itself, the decision, whether to change OR stay the same, will probably result in us losing just as many as we gain. Hopefully it won't be one step forward and two steps back...
My Daddy always says "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"... hmm, I'm not sure that was the best quote to compliment my statements.....
For those just picking up on this discussion, let me restate that I'm not testing 4cell TC at this moment, and I'm still neutral to the idea. In all of my theory (which from the looks of other's testing is pretty close to being accurate) the most important thing for us as racers to do is evaluate, discuss, and help promote the hobby no matter what the final decision is. There's too many "if I can't have it my way, I'm going home" attitudes out there. I've even been guilty of it in the past, but it didn't benefit our local racing, and it won't benefit the hobby on a larger scale either. If we accept the reality that there will be times when Jason or Derek or Newbie or Baker won't get their way, but we still choose to work together, this hobby could shoot straight through the roof. But as history usually repeats itself, the decision, whether to change OR stay the same, will probably result in us losing just as many as we gain. Hopefully it won't be one step forward and two steps back...
My Daddy always says "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"... hmm, I'm not sure that was the best quote to compliment my statements.....