Cyrul's Break in Procedures
07-20-2005, 10:00 AM
#46
Tech Fanatic
Originally Posted by afm
The article I posted on WOT break-in is not mine, as I said there, it is Dave Gierke's article published in Nitro Magazine. So I used a combination of methods in my second P/S set.
First i did One Tank on the break-in bench, as per STS's method:
First tank of fuel: Start your engine, idle for 2 minutes then stop and let it cool down. Whenever you stop the motor please ensure, by rotating the flywheel by hand (careful it can be hot), that the piston is NOT at Top Dead Center (TDC), let it cool. Repeat the "start-idle cycle" until you finish one tank of fuel. If idle rpm is too high, adjust the slow needle. Make sure the temperature is under 80C (176F), it is good if some raw fuel is spitting from the exhaust.
Note: This way we call it cold run in. The piston expands when hot and shrinks when cold. This way we let the piston adapt to changes of temperature and also let the piston get tempered and get the correct clearances. If you do the "start-idle cycle", you will find the engine is more easy to break-in.
All engines need to warm up a while after started. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...
So also, I usually let my engine idle for a while if I have opened it. All parts need to run-in for a while, including conrod, bearings, crank...etc. So if I change any part I will let it idle for a while too. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...
Second and third tank on the break-in bench, at WOT very rich, as per Gierkes or Cyrul's method
Next tanks on the car, in the track, up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Hope it is clear now
AFM
First i did One Tank on the break-in bench, as per STS's method:
First tank of fuel: Start your engine, idle for 2 minutes then stop and let it cool down. Whenever you stop the motor please ensure, by rotating the flywheel by hand (careful it can be hot), that the piston is NOT at Top Dead Center (TDC), let it cool. Repeat the "start-idle cycle" until you finish one tank of fuel. If idle rpm is too high, adjust the slow needle. Make sure the temperature is under 80C (176F), it is good if some raw fuel is spitting from the exhaust.
Note: This way we call it cold run in. The piston expands when hot and shrinks when cold. This way we let the piston adapt to changes of temperature and also let the piston get tempered and get the correct clearances. If you do the "start-idle cycle", you will find the engine is more easy to break-in.
All engines need to warm up a while after started. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...
So also, I usually let my engine idle for a while if I have opened it. All parts need to run-in for a while, including conrod, bearings, crank...etc. So if I change any part I will let it idle for a while too. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...
Second and third tank on the break-in bench, at WOT very rich, as per Gierkes or Cyrul's method
Next tanks on the car, in the track, up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Hope it is clear now
AFM
07-20-2005, 10:19 AM
#47
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hope I didn't ruin the motor following Josh's EXACT procedure....which is running WOT from the git go....
07-20-2005, 11:24 AM
#48
Originally Posted by fastharry
hope I didn't ruin the motor following Josh's EXACT procedure....which is running WOT from the git go....
Last edited by Artificial-I; 07-22-2005 at 02:38 PM.
07-20-2005, 12:22 PM
#49
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Location: Louisville, KY!.. USA!! ....Home of http://www.fastharry.com
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wish I could get Josh's comments on this..
07-20-2005, 01:34 PM
#50
Originally Posted by fastharry
hope I didn't ruin the motor following Josh's EXACT procedure....which is running WOT from the git go....
Josh his methode is still a good one.......
07-21-2005, 04:14 PM
#51
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
I see a lot of questions about the different procedures on here and here's a few things:
#1 - Not everyone thinks the same about break-in so it's important to do what you are comfortable with. I've used my method for years and it's always worked well for me. Not saying it's the exact perfect way and there is no other, but it's what I've had sucess and I think it's quite easy so I've stuck with it....
#2 - I don't use a temp gun ever!! So, I can give estimates on temps but I can't give exacts on what I break in at or what I run out on the track.
#3 - The main pourpose of the first tanks of running so rich is not so much to break in the engine but to flush loads of fuel through to move any residue oil, film and debris out of the engine so when you do break in the engine it has a 100% clean internals to work with. I don't like running at an idle with a brand new engine as I want that high fuel capacity flushing out the insides so it's ready to start lapping in the piston and sleeve. Once you've gone through the steps and are starting to lean the engine out is really when the "break-in" part of the procedure starts to happen.
#1 - Not everyone thinks the same about break-in so it's important to do what you are comfortable with. I've used my method for years and it's always worked well for me. Not saying it's the exact perfect way and there is no other, but it's what I've had sucess and I think it's quite easy so I've stuck with it....
#2 - I don't use a temp gun ever!! So, I can give estimates on temps but I can't give exacts on what I break in at or what I run out on the track.
#3 - The main pourpose of the first tanks of running so rich is not so much to break in the engine but to flush loads of fuel through to move any residue oil, film and debris out of the engine so when you do break in the engine it has a 100% clean internals to work with. I don't like running at an idle with a brand new engine as I want that high fuel capacity flushing out the insides so it's ready to start lapping in the piston and sleeve. Once you've gone through the steps and are starting to lean the engine out is really when the "break-in" part of the procedure starts to happen.
07-21-2005, 04:26 PM
#52
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
fastharry - Your engine should drop in temp over the next 5-10 tanks and you probably will have to lean it out a bit. A lot of the time, my method still leaves the engine with a nice pinch after you run through the procedure which I think is still good as it allows you to spend those 5-10 tanks getting the clutch and everything set just right. From there the engine should run nice and consistant with loads of power.
I used this process on the engine in my RRR and I ran it at the Worlds (1hr), then a Toledo club race (about 1hr 20min) and then all of practice, qualification (approx 50min) and the final at the ROAR Nats (1hr). I would say the engine has over 5 hours on it and all I ever do is just slightly adjust the top needle to get the right mix to match the air temp. Never popped a plug, and tech at the Nats had trouble checking the engine because the pinch was still good enough that it would push the sleeve out of the case at top dead center. Oh yeah, I also used O'Donnel 20% fuel at the Nats!!!
Let me know if anyone has any questions.... I'll be glad to help if I can...
I used this process on the engine in my RRR and I ran it at the Worlds (1hr), then a Toledo club race (about 1hr 20min) and then all of practice, qualification (approx 50min) and the final at the ROAR Nats (1hr). I would say the engine has over 5 hours on it and all I ever do is just slightly adjust the top needle to get the right mix to match the air temp. Never popped a plug, and tech at the Nats had trouble checking the engine because the pinch was still good enough that it would push the sleeve out of the case at top dead center. Oh yeah, I also used O'Donnel 20% fuel at the Nats!!!
Let me know if anyone has any questions.... I'll be glad to help if I can...
07-22-2005, 09:25 AM
#53
Josh,
When you're opening the top needle to get to the point where the engine flames out, do you turn it constantly until it reaches the point where it flames out or do you do it in steps? How quickly do you open the needle?
Cheers, Mark.
When you're opening the top needle to get to the point where the engine flames out, do you turn it constantly until it reaches the point where it flames out or do you do it in steps? How quickly do you open the needle?
Cheers, Mark.
07-22-2005, 04:10 PM
#55
Thanks Josh.
Cheers, Mark.
Cheers, Mark.
07-22-2005, 04:25 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
fastharry - Your engine should drop in temp over the next 5-10 tanks and you probably will have to lean it out a bit. A lot of the time, my method still leaves the engine with a nice pinch after you run through the procedure which I think is still good as it allows you to spend those 5-10 tanks getting the clutch and everything set just right. From there the engine should run nice and consistant with loads of power.
I used this process on the engine in my RRR and I ran it at the Worlds (1hr), then a Toledo club race (about 1hr 20min) and then all of practice, qualification (approx 50min) and the final at the ROAR Nats (1hr). I would say the engine has over 5 hours on it and all I ever do is just slightly adjust the top needle to get the right mix to match the air temp. Never popped a plug, and tech at the Nats had trouble checking the engine because the pinch was still good enough that it would push the sleeve out of the case at top dead center. Oh yeah, I also used O'Donnel 20% fuel at the Nats!!!
Let me know if anyone has any questions.... I'll be glad to help if I can...
I used this process on the engine in my RRR and I ran it at the Worlds (1hr), then a Toledo club race (about 1hr 20min) and then all of practice, qualification (approx 50min) and the final at the ROAR Nats (1hr). I would say the engine has over 5 hours on it and all I ever do is just slightly adjust the top needle to get the right mix to match the air temp. Never popped a plug, and tech at the Nats had trouble checking the engine because the pinch was still good enough that it would push the sleeve out of the case at top dead center. Oh yeah, I also used O'Donnel 20% fuel at the Nats!!!
Let me know if anyone has any questions.... I'll be glad to help if I can...
Maybe its better to stick with the same so you know its the exact same mixture each time you crank it?
Also I would really love to hear your thoughts on the heat cycle / idle method. Like would you try it on your next motor? Basically heat cycle it 2-3 minute intervals at idle up to 180F for just one tank. Then proceed to do the wot method or do you feel this would pretty much ruin the WOT method. Im just scared about the tightness of the motor and would think this first easy start before the wot method might yeild a more reliable motor, like con-rod stress and other odd things.
Given your "the man" at the wot method I would seriously love to hear what you think of this add-on to your method and maybe even the on / off throttle blip method as well. Like I said love to hear your thoughts on a motor broken in that way if you ever get the time to try these add-ons.
Maybe you already have tried these methods? Either way would like to hear the comparisons straight from you...cause I cant think of anyone better to listen to.
Thanks Josh. Good luck at your next races!
07-23-2005, 11:53 AM
#57
I would like to make a quick comment here.
Josh is one of the best in the world at tuning nitro r/c motors. This is the reason he has no need for a temp gun. Also the reason has he no need to change glow plugs.
However, for you guys and myself, we need to use the temp gun and new plugs for reference. My main goal in using the temp gun is to make sure I'm in the ballpark. Especially when bench tuning the motor. Often it's not so easy to audibly hear if you don't have the hi/lo needle combination off a little and the temp gun will help you go in the right direction. Also, tuning can be like building shocks; you may know the correct method but until you see (or in our case hear) someone like Josh do this bench tuning you still won't know how to do it well.
As for the glow plugs, Josh's plug probably never saw the high side of lean so the plugs works great. Ron Atomic uses the same plus for months just like Josh. The problem for us is that we aren't as good at tuning by ear and track feel so the option of "reading" the plug can help us a lot. Many times I don't change plugs because I think my car's performance has fallen off, I change it to be able to read the plug after a few laps. The glow plug in our motors is just like the spark plug in full size race motors. My engine builder (drag car motor) said it best; he told me that the plug is our only window to what what is happening in the combustion chamber. If you can't read a plug accurately in a 1300hp race motor then you will be lost as a goose.
Josh- had a good time chattin with ya at the Nats. Good job on the win. I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts here- I know that sometimes you guys forget that us rookies don't always know what we're hearing and what to look for like you do.
Josh is one of the best in the world at tuning nitro r/c motors. This is the reason he has no need for a temp gun. Also the reason has he no need to change glow plugs.
However, for you guys and myself, we need to use the temp gun and new plugs for reference. My main goal in using the temp gun is to make sure I'm in the ballpark. Especially when bench tuning the motor. Often it's not so easy to audibly hear if you don't have the hi/lo needle combination off a little and the temp gun will help you go in the right direction. Also, tuning can be like building shocks; you may know the correct method but until you see (or in our case hear) someone like Josh do this bench tuning you still won't know how to do it well.
As for the glow plugs, Josh's plug probably never saw the high side of lean so the plugs works great. Ron Atomic uses the same plus for months just like Josh. The problem for us is that we aren't as good at tuning by ear and track feel so the option of "reading" the plug can help us a lot. Many times I don't change plugs because I think my car's performance has fallen off, I change it to be able to read the plug after a few laps. The glow plug in our motors is just like the spark plug in full size race motors. My engine builder (drag car motor) said it best; he told me that the plug is our only window to what what is happening in the combustion chamber. If you can't read a plug accurately in a 1300hp race motor then you will be lost as a goose.
Josh- had a good time chattin with ya at the Nats. Good job on the win. I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts here- I know that sometimes you guys forget that us rookies don't always know what we're hearing and what to look for like you do.
07-23-2005, 05:11 PM
#58
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Artificial-I - This sounds really silly but try this: If you have an exercise bike or go to the gym hop on a bike and crank the resistance way up (like it would be in a new motor) and start to pedal at a slow rate (idle). After maybe 10 revs, pedal hard to get up to a pretty good rpm - you will find at a point that it becomes easier (momentium) to run higher RPM with less stress on your body. I believe that this is the same with an engine when breaking it in. Sounds weird but try it (I have so don't think I'm trying to make ya exercise..lol...).... As far as the throttle blip - I do that later in my break-in procedure but only after the wot to flush the engine out completely.
BigDog - I agree with you across the board, it does take time, practice and patience to learn your engine (sound and feel) to be able to tune it properly. One of the biggest things people miss are regular checkings of the o-rings in the carbs. I had several people ask me to tune engines lately but I struggled to get a good tune. I popped the carb off and it wound up that the o-rings were shot (especially the ones on the back spray-bar needle) so it's always a good idea to check the carb out if your tune goes a stray. You are also correct about loosing power from running an engine too lean and needing a new plug. My engines are usually very lean on the bottom end but then they are just right or a little rich up on top so I don't hurt the plug. Also, add whatever thoughts you like - everyone has their opinions and methods so it's whatever you are comfortable with. I wish I could get some instructional videos made as I know it's not always the easiest to understand what I'm rambling about...
BigDog - I agree with you across the board, it does take time, practice and patience to learn your engine (sound and feel) to be able to tune it properly. One of the biggest things people miss are regular checkings of the o-rings in the carbs. I had several people ask me to tune engines lately but I struggled to get a good tune. I popped the carb off and it wound up that the o-rings were shot (especially the ones on the back spray-bar needle) so it's always a good idea to check the carb out if your tune goes a stray. You are also correct about loosing power from running an engine too lean and needing a new plug. My engines are usually very lean on the bottom end but then they are just right or a little rich up on top so I don't hurt the plug. Also, add whatever thoughts you like - everyone has their opinions and methods so it's whatever you are comfortable with. I wish I could get some instructional videos made as I know it's not always the easiest to understand what I'm rambling about...
07-23-2005, 06:48 PM
#59
Howdy!
I had the opportunity to watch Josh race his G4 at the Australian Nationals in Brisbane what only seems a little while ago
He was very approachable, and it was awsome to see him race... I might get the chance again when the 2006 Worlds hit Brendale again
Some questions regarding the Cyrul run in procedure:
Is the car just sitting on the starter box during this whole time?
On initial start up it says to just blip the throttle to bring the engine up to temp, is this for a full tank before you richen it a full turn? Or do you just bring the motor up to temp an then proceed onto making it stall etc?
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
BB
I had the opportunity to watch Josh race his G4 at the Australian Nationals in Brisbane what only seems a little while ago
He was very approachable, and it was awsome to see him race... I might get the chance again when the 2006 Worlds hit Brendale again Some questions regarding the Cyrul run in procedure:
Is the car just sitting on the starter box during this whole time?
On initial start up it says to just blip the throttle to bring the engine up to temp, is this for a full tank before you richen it a full turn? Or do you just bring the motor up to temp an then proceed onto making it stall etc?
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
BB
