mod crank
08-01-2010, 01:30 PM
#31
Tech Regular
counter weight of the is not the counter balance. the more counter weight will not give you more balance what it dose is give you more mass. the mass will help stop vibration not because it even balance because it weighs more. counter balance it counter the compression wich is not never even.
to prove this right think of it this way if you have two cylinder you would balance the crank than you would balance the piston. the motor is still not balance because the piston compress at different time even if you make the pistons compress at the same time even form each other still one piston will make more compression than the other. the only to help is to add weight. wind you add weight to the opposite of the piston it like time 5 what the flywheel. unless you counter flywheel. all the weight you add will slow down your acceleration and fuel mileage. wich the last time i look acceleration and fuel mileage is what you need the most in offroad rc racing. but dont get me wrong you still haft to have some counter weight.
to prove this right think of it this way if you have two cylinder you would balance the crank than you would balance the piston. the motor is still not balance because the piston compress at different time even if you make the pistons compress at the same time even form each other still one piston will make more compression than the other. the only to help is to add weight. wind you add weight to the opposite of the piston it like time 5 what the flywheel. unless you counter flywheel. all the weight you add will slow down your acceleration and fuel mileage. wich the last time i look acceleration and fuel mileage is what you need the most in offroad rc racing. but dont get me wrong you still haft to have some counter weight.
08-01-2010, 02:27 PM
#32
yikes!
08-01-2010, 04:47 PM
#33
I am even skeptical of that, with the RPM these engines operate at any grooves or channels would just go into cavitation and the crank would become one solid mass for the most part.....Now this is only my theory as the equipment needed to test this properly is out of my reach.... I do however own a dyno and have played around with some of this stuff only to find negative results... I do however see that a ligtened counterweight does allow the engine to spool faster in a low load situation, but has no effect on a loaded situation...in other words once the tires break traction they will just spin even more violently.... The faster the rate of aceration the more effects a lightened rotatin mass has... in a drag car that runs 0-45000 RPM in 1.6 seconds a lightened internal mass plays a huge role...but in a heavy offroad it has no effect other then when the tires break traction....
I want to X2 pretty much everything you have stated in this thread. Your coming along nicely Neal.
08-02-2010, 03:09 AM
#34
Tech Adept
Not to sure why you started a new thread the day after this one, but what do i know. Anyway, i remember when the guy behind Powerhouse RC Performance started working on his concept of mods, including the "compressor blade" design on the counter weight. I think that was over on affordable nitrotech, in the grindstone section. Sadly, it has since gone dead... The whole forum is gone, and with it a great resource for engine mods. (God, i miss that place.)
Anyway. The general opinion on the design was "mad - not going to work", but he is still around, and nowdays he sells his work, so it's got to be doing something for buyers.
That said. Your design looks to square, and wont really support flow, which to me means your not going to get the end results your looking for...
You guys with dynos.. Ever run a Powerhouse RC Performance mod, with the compressorblade counterweight design? Since i've never had one in my hands i have no idea if it does anything or if it's just looks. I'd say up to a certain rpm the blades should be effective in a way, but after that it would to turn in to a "solid mass". But that rpm may well be above the engines running speeds. No idea. A dyno run should provide some insight.
B!
Anyway. The general opinion on the design was "mad - not going to work", but he is still around, and nowdays he sells his work, so it's got to be doing something for buyers.
That said. Your design looks to square, and wont really support flow, which to me means your not going to get the end results your looking for...
You guys with dynos.. Ever run a Powerhouse RC Performance mod, with the compressorblade counterweight design? Since i've never had one in my hands i have no idea if it does anything or if it's just looks. I'd say up to a certain rpm the blades should be effective in a way, but after that it would to turn in to a "solid mass". But that rpm may well be above the engines running speeds. No idea. A dyno run should provide some insight.
B!
08-02-2010, 05:22 AM
#35
Show here a crank and sleeve with only an extreme timing (but not telling) and a crank and sleeve with only extreme cut-outs and polishing and ask everyone which they wanna have, the most are choosing the visable modded parts and only some are asking which one has changed timings.
I have seen a Sirio team engine on the worlds, that thing was fast and the sleeve and crank were visable pure stock, timings I do not know. And there is the other question why team enginges can be more powerfull or compleetly different than the consumer version even without those fancy and extreme modding.
Timings is the main key, nothing more and nothing less, flowing will do something, you will notice the engine runs a bit better (a better idle etc), has a slight faster response but on the dyno I think it has not noticeable more power.
If it realy helps you will see it with the other brands also......
08-02-2010, 11:37 AM
#36
Face it, there is a line of customers who think they get a better engine if all the parts looks extreme modded. Shiny sleeves with all kind of cut-outs and the weirdest things on the crankshaft must improve a lot, for sure if the seller can tell you some very interesting bulltalk the potential buyers do take it. That is it with my example that a lot of customers think an engine is faster if only the head has something like "Murnan mod" engraved.
Show here a crank and sleeve with only an extreme timing (but not telling) and a crank and sleeve with only extreme cut-outs and polishing and ask everyone which they wanna have, the most are choosing the visable modded parts and only some are asking which one has changed timings.
I have seen a Sirio team engine on the worlds, that thing was fast and the sleeve and crank were visable pure stock, timings I do not know. And there is the other question why team enginges can be more powerfull or compleetly different than the consumer version even without those fancy and extreme modding.
Timings is the main key, nothing more and nothing less, flowing will do something, you will notice the engine runs a bit better (a better idle etc), has a slight faster response but on the dyno I think it has not noticeable more power.
If it realy helps you will see it with the other brands also......
Show here a crank and sleeve with only an extreme timing (but not telling) and a crank and sleeve with only extreme cut-outs and polishing and ask everyone which they wanna have, the most are choosing the visable modded parts and only some are asking which one has changed timings.
I have seen a Sirio team engine on the worlds, that thing was fast and the sleeve and crank were visable pure stock, timings I do not know. And there is the other question why team enginges can be more powerfull or compleetly different than the consumer version even without those fancy and extreme modding.
Timings is the main key, nothing more and nothing less, flowing will do something, you will notice the engine runs a bit better (a better idle etc), has a slight faster response but on the dyno I think it has not noticeable more power.
If it realy helps you will see it with the other brands also......
08-02-2010, 11:54 AM
#37
Tech Adept
Yeah, as i said, i have no idea on performance one way or another. I've stated sometimes, that if you give a good consistent driver 2 cars, both the same, with slightly different looks to tell them apart (colors, and none essential stuff like that) and tell him the one is the base model, and the other is a fully tricked options version, he'll do better laptimes with the later. It's all in the head of the driver, so if a driver belie a engine is better, and it's not actually worse, he's going to improve.
But none the less, it would be neat to see a dyno of the fan-like design type cranks. Preferable a before and after mod, with the same tune, but...
B!
But none the less, it would be neat to see a dyno of the fan-like design type cranks. Preferable a before and after mod, with the same tune, but...
B!
08-02-2010, 12:33 PM
#38
There are alot of theories and opinions out there and everyone is entitled to there own ideas. That is what makes this world so much fun is all the ideas and the direction ideas have gone in the past, present and will go in the future. I have gotten some flack along the way about the way I modify engines and that's fine, I counted on that. It was the same thing when i was designing and building engines for snowmobiles and personal watercraft. There was things we tried that worked and didn't work, ideas that were so sound that it had to work but didn't and ideas that were off the wall but worked better than expected and is still a mystery to this day. Not one of us on this site or on this planet for that matter is the end all be all with engines. It is a constant learning experience and the engine companies themselves continue to try to improve upon there latest designs and as well as the aftermarket guys continue to improve on their work, myself included. The turbo crank idea that I incorperated into these small engines stemmed back about 10-12 years ago in snowmobile and watercraft cheeks. We were doing some testing and found some of the techniques worked ok and some made things worse so there is definitely a fine line out there to make it work.
The advantage I had to take that idea and put it into reality was the aviation background I had stemming back to working on T-700 turbines from Apache Attack Helicopters. The idea of taking air and not only compressing it, but channaling it into a chamber to be burnt and expelled to create either thrust or spin a secondary drive to create shaft horsepower was something I wanted to do here and so far has worked very well. I understand it isn't a turbine engine and most of the cheeks I can only do half due to the pork chop style design of the cheek but what I have been able to do has been successful in a multitude of areas of this sport. A dyno is a great tool and as much as I would like to have one sometimes, there are also areas a dyno won't show you and situations a dyno won't be able to recreate to give you a solid hands on feel of what is really happening. Field testing is the best way to fill that void the dyno can't and that is what I have done for years.
Of course the turbo crank has gone through a bunch of redesigns and revisions since I introduced it in 2006. Back then, it worked a little bit but not nearly as effective as they are now. There are still guys who don't like it, wish they thought of it first, tried it but had less than desirable results etc and they are the first ones to put it down without actually having a solid background on how it works and the testing that I have with these cranks. Again, it is fine and I expect more opinions and nah sayers to surface and justify the way they modify or operate their engines and that is cool. As I said before, if you don't like it, don't buy it. That's the beauty of this, noone is forcing anyone to read or buy anything. Just a bunch of people doing what they love and having fun doing it, myself included!!
I do have some interesting information on the turbo vs. non turbo cranks. I have a gentleman in the south who drag races 1/10 scale direct drive cars and he had a couple of engines that he had modified from someone else who is no longer with us, and just for curiosity sakes, he sent the engines to me just for the turbo crank modification. He wanted me to leave the timing that the other modder had set up alone to just compare the crank work. He was running the engines for the majority of a season and then sent them in so he had solid testing time on them both before. I then modified the engines, sent them back and he recently reported back that his car went from running 82-84 mph consistantly in 132 feet to running 114-119 mph in the same car, track, distance using the same pipe, fuel, gear ratio, tires etc. The only difference between before and after was the bladed crank. I wasn't there in person to witness this so this is going off what he is saying but there were a couple other sources that confirmed what he was saying and they were considered neutral parties so I am just writing what I was told by several sources. He said he was running 1.53 seconds in that distance and he mentioned that a couple other guys were running 1.48-1.49 so he has some work to do as far as ET goes. He also stated that his ET was a shade quicker from before the mod going from 1.57-1.59 to the 1.53 but I also told him the port timing was aggressive and probably should be lowered a little to scrub of some time and get the car to leave harder. I am currently working on a new engine for him from scratch so in a short time, I will have more results from an engine that was set up by me start to finish. I also have a guy in Australia going for the world record for the fastest .46 sized aircraft also with a bladed crank.
So I guess it is a take it for what it is type of thing and again, some will argue the fact and some have seen it first hand so I am not too worried about what other people say as I am still in business and pumping out more work than I ever have so I am very happy with my results and so are my customers. There are several other modders that I have talked to and have seen their engines in action and they have all been impressive so whether you buy from me or another repuatable engine guru, you will most likely have a good buying experience. I have talked with Adam from AB mods, Neal from Clorkwork, Monty from HES, Ed from EB mods and Jim from Hotmods and I respect each one of them for what they have done and what they continue to do for this hobby and even know we are considered competitors on some level, we also understand what it takes to be successful in a very cut throat world of racing and performance enhancing products and services. I consider all of them to be friends and would help them out in a minute if they needed something. I love banging doors with Ed Bridges, he is so much fun to race against and since him and I are very close to driving levels, it is definitley exciting to stay glued to his ass most of the race
and then shake hands, walk away and talk engines for a few before gearing up for the next round. That is way it should be, just two cats who respect and understand what it takes to do this and still enjoy some friendly competition without it becoming a personal vendetta. Allright, I've said my piece...PEACE!
The advantage I had to take that idea and put it into reality was the aviation background I had stemming back to working on T-700 turbines from Apache Attack Helicopters. The idea of taking air and not only compressing it, but channaling it into a chamber to be burnt and expelled to create either thrust or spin a secondary drive to create shaft horsepower was something I wanted to do here and so far has worked very well. I understand it isn't a turbine engine and most of the cheeks I can only do half due to the pork chop style design of the cheek but what I have been able to do has been successful in a multitude of areas of this sport. A dyno is a great tool and as much as I would like to have one sometimes, there are also areas a dyno won't show you and situations a dyno won't be able to recreate to give you a solid hands on feel of what is really happening. Field testing is the best way to fill that void the dyno can't and that is what I have done for years.
Of course the turbo crank has gone through a bunch of redesigns and revisions since I introduced it in 2006. Back then, it worked a little bit but not nearly as effective as they are now. There are still guys who don't like it, wish they thought of it first, tried it but had less than desirable results etc and they are the first ones to put it down without actually having a solid background on how it works and the testing that I have with these cranks. Again, it is fine and I expect more opinions and nah sayers to surface and justify the way they modify or operate their engines and that is cool. As I said before, if you don't like it, don't buy it. That's the beauty of this, noone is forcing anyone to read or buy anything. Just a bunch of people doing what they love and having fun doing it, myself included!!
I do have some interesting information on the turbo vs. non turbo cranks. I have a gentleman in the south who drag races 1/10 scale direct drive cars and he had a couple of engines that he had modified from someone else who is no longer with us, and just for curiosity sakes, he sent the engines to me just for the turbo crank modification. He wanted me to leave the timing that the other modder had set up alone to just compare the crank work. He was running the engines for the majority of a season and then sent them in so he had solid testing time on them both before. I then modified the engines, sent them back and he recently reported back that his car went from running 82-84 mph consistantly in 132 feet to running 114-119 mph in the same car, track, distance using the same pipe, fuel, gear ratio, tires etc. The only difference between before and after was the bladed crank. I wasn't there in person to witness this so this is going off what he is saying but there were a couple other sources that confirmed what he was saying and they were considered neutral parties so I am just writing what I was told by several sources. He said he was running 1.53 seconds in that distance and he mentioned that a couple other guys were running 1.48-1.49 so he has some work to do as far as ET goes. He also stated that his ET was a shade quicker from before the mod going from 1.57-1.59 to the 1.53 but I also told him the port timing was aggressive and probably should be lowered a little to scrub of some time and get the car to leave harder. I am currently working on a new engine for him from scratch so in a short time, I will have more results from an engine that was set up by me start to finish. I also have a guy in Australia going for the world record for the fastest .46 sized aircraft also with a bladed crank.
So I guess it is a take it for what it is type of thing and again, some will argue the fact and some have seen it first hand so I am not too worried about what other people say as I am still in business and pumping out more work than I ever have so I am very happy with my results and so are my customers. There are several other modders that I have talked to and have seen their engines in action and they have all been impressive so whether you buy from me or another repuatable engine guru, you will most likely have a good buying experience. I have talked with Adam from AB mods, Neal from Clorkwork, Monty from HES, Ed from EB mods and Jim from Hotmods and I respect each one of them for what they have done and what they continue to do for this hobby and even know we are considered competitors on some level, we also understand what it takes to be successful in a very cut throat world of racing and performance enhancing products and services. I consider all of them to be friends and would help them out in a minute if they needed something. I love banging doors with Ed Bridges, he is so much fun to race against and since him and I are very close to driving levels, it is definitley exciting to stay glued to his ass most of the race
and then shake hands, walk away and talk engines for a few before gearing up for the next round. That is way it should be, just two cats who respect and understand what it takes to do this and still enjoy some friendly competition without it becoming a personal vendetta. Allright, I've said my piece...PEACE!
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