Race Fuels???
06-13-2009, 05:31 PM
#46
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
Cant wait to try the torco fuel!!
06-14-2009, 10:14 AM
#47
If dyes (coloring) in racing fuel really don't help engine performance why use
them? My friend used Bue Thunder; We opened up his engine and it was tinted blue inside; Not a good thing! Nitromethane is natually clear. I think
colored fuel would be ok for bashing, but not for racing when pushing a engine
to its limit. IMO
them? My friend used Bue Thunder; We opened up his engine and it was tinted blue inside; Not a good thing! Nitromethane is natually clear. I think
colored fuel would be ok for bashing, but not for racing when pushing a engine
to its limit. IMO
06-14-2009, 10:24 AM
#48
I don't think dyes hurt/help the engines at all. they are used to distinguish between brands and so that you can see the fuel in the tank. Nothing like running TANG(TQ) in your tank, or the RED sidewinder or Green Tilted fuel.... I prefer fuel with some color....
06-14-2009, 10:55 AM
#49
There is an old saying: If it's not helping performance it's probably hurting
performance. I also used to use Trinity Monster Horsepower "racing fuel" that also tinted the inside of my engines pink. From then on I would not consider
using a "racing fuel" unless it's natually clear.
performance. I also used to use Trinity Monster Horsepower "racing fuel" that also tinted the inside of my engines pink. From then on I would not consider
using a "racing fuel" unless it's natually clear.
06-14-2009, 08:22 PM
#50
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
There is an old saying: If it's not helping performance it's probably hurting
performance. I also used to use Trinity Monster Horsepower "racing fuel" that also tinted the inside of my engines pink. From then on I would not consider
using a "racing fuel" unless it's natually clear.
performance. I also used to use Trinity Monster Horsepower "racing fuel" that also tinted the inside of my engines pink. From then on I would not consider
using a "racing fuel" unless it's natually clear.
Nothing else is better!
06-14-2009, 10:09 PM
#52
If dyes (coloring) in racing fuel really don't help engine performance why use
them? My friend used Bue Thunder; We opened up his engine and it was tinted blue inside; Not a good thing! Nitromethane is natually clear. I think
colored fuel would be ok for bashing, but not for racing when pushing a engine
to its limit. IMO
them? My friend used Bue Thunder; We opened up his engine and it was tinted blue inside; Not a good thing! Nitromethane is natually clear. I think
colored fuel would be ok for bashing, but not for racing when pushing a engine
to its limit. IMO
06-15-2009, 02:28 AM
#53
x
Last edited by Werks; 06-21-2009 at 06:32 PM.
06-15-2009, 03:16 PM
#54
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
Hey Marcus, I asked you some questions on the Torco thread regarding the evaporation test results that you posted with their fuel versus ours. You've posted a couple of times afterward on there without responding?? In any case I just caught your post here so I figured I would ask again on this thread as it is also a more general "race fuel" discussion and I don't want it to seem like I'm spamming their thread. Look forward to your response and if you would like please feel free to post it here instead.
On a completely separate note as far as the colored dye in fuel versus no dye in fuel debate that you guys are having here's my personal take on it. In the first place it definitely is not helping the performance of the fuel so why put it in there? Secondly who wants to have the inside of their engine dyed purple, red, orange, green or blue???
Over the years we've been the US importers for Collari Innotech, Picco, Lamberto Collari Motorsport and for the last 4-5 years produced our own Werks "Team Line" engines. I might look at things from a slightly different perspective as we are one of the very few companies in the world making engines that also produce fuel . In that time I've disassembled my self and/or seen broken down in pieces hundreds if not thousands of used (already run) car engines. Usually with any engine with more than a couple of gallons on it, it is quite easy to tell what fuel the owner has been using simply by looking at the color of all of the dye build up on the engine internals. I prefer not to have to try and remove that stuff when I'm working on/cleaning engines.
The lack of any performance benefit and discoloration of the internals is why several of the US made racing fuels (O'Donnell, our Werks, Gil's Nitrotane and Byrons (though it's G2 has a very, very slight tint to it)) are made as clear fuels. I also know of no European engine guys that dye their own fuel that they occasionally produce for their team drivers (at major races) nor do any of the top European performance racing fuels that I know of have dye's in them.
I've heard the argument that colored fuel is easier to see in the fuel gun and my response is simply that then your not pitting right because you should be doing this off of time not staring at the gun to hopefully see when the fuel stops flowing. The vast majority of the on-road guys use solid metal guns because they can modify the vent tubes to make them dump faster, cant see the fuel in a metal gun so the "stare at the gun technique" definitely does not work there either. Just put the tip of the gun in the tank, pull the trigger and count to 3, drop car and your done. It's not rocket science.
The reality of the matter is that here in the US a significant amount of the fuels produced under several brands are dyed a certain color simply because they all use one brand of oil which comes pre-dyed that color from the company that manufactures it. That's it, the no spin answer. Nothing more nothing less, no thought involved in the whole process... simply no choice.
On a completely separate note as far as the colored dye in fuel versus no dye in fuel debate that you guys are having here's my personal take on it. In the first place it definitely is not helping the performance of the fuel so why put it in there? Secondly who wants to have the inside of their engine dyed purple, red, orange, green or blue???
Over the years we've been the US importers for Collari Innotech, Picco, Lamberto Collari Motorsport and for the last 4-5 years produced our own Werks "Team Line" engines. I might look at things from a slightly different perspective as we are one of the very few companies in the world making engines that also produce fuel . In that time I've disassembled my self and/or seen broken down in pieces hundreds if not thousands of used (already run) car engines. Usually with any engine with more than a couple of gallons on it, it is quite easy to tell what fuel the owner has been using simply by looking at the color of all of the dye build up on the engine internals. I prefer not to have to try and remove that stuff when I'm working on/cleaning engines.
The lack of any performance benefit and discoloration of the internals is why several of the US made racing fuels (O'Donnell, our Werks, Gil's Nitrotane and Byrons (though it's G2 has a very, very slight tint to it)) are made as clear fuels. I also know of no European engine guys that dye their own fuel that they occasionally produce for their team drivers (at major races) nor do any of the top European performance racing fuels that I know of have dye's in them.
I've heard the argument that colored fuel is easier to see in the fuel gun and my response is simply that then your not pitting right because you should be doing this off of time not staring at the gun to hopefully see when the fuel stops flowing. The vast majority of the on-road guys use solid metal guns because they can modify the vent tubes to make them dump faster, cant see the fuel in a metal gun so the "stare at the gun technique" definitely does not work there either. Just put the tip of the gun in the tank, pull the trigger and count to 3, drop car and your done. It's not rocket science.
The reality of the matter is that here in the US a significant amount of the fuels produced under several brands are dyed a certain color simply because they all use one brand of oil which comes pre-dyed that color from the company that manufactures it. That's it, the no spin answer. Nothing more nothing less, no thought involved in the whole process... simply no choice.
06-15-2009, 04:31 PM
#55
fuel gun ?
Werks can you give me more info on the metal fuel gun vent mod? I have one and would like to know more about that mod. Thanks
06-15-2009, 04:41 PM
#56
werks
I have run werks motors and fuel and I will tell every one you have the best customer service. As for the fuel I just filled up both glasses with fuel and you were right the Torco has more oil in it. torco and the guys from Torco have been good to me and the local racers out here in AZ they do dye the oil but it burns clean, I have two gallons on my OPS SFV21B and it looks new inside no RED. The fuel they test is clear I have seen it and they have been testing fuel with 9, and 10 percent oil and there is big things coming from this company. As far as the color in the fuel it works for me and makes my job pitting very easy and if you know who I am you know I pit for just about every one when I am not racing. I use the Losi gun not the solid RB type gun and I stop when the fuel stops, probably less than 3sec and have been racing nitro since 1/8 scale cars had chains and the motors were side exaust, remember Mile square park in the 80's
I am sure if you want clear fuel just ask Steven and he will mix it for you himself.
I am sure if you want clear fuel just ask Steven and he will mix it for you himself.
Last edited by Marcus Falconie; 06-15-2009 at 06:45 PM.
06-15-2009, 05:27 PM
#57
oil
This is what it looks like it was still in my garage
06-15-2009, 08:33 PM
#58
x
Last edited by Werks; 06-21-2009 at 06:31 PM.
06-15-2009, 08:50 PM
#59
Gearhead Racer, what are you hum...'ing about? If you have a question or comment please feel free to post it. I'm a straight shooter and can take it also, there's nothing worse than cryptic comments.
Pimp_9000. In a nutshell you want to either increase the size of the brass vent tubes (using larger diameter tuber) or increase the amount of them using a larger amount (more) of the smaller diameter tubes. The old ones would need to be removed and the gun modified to accept the new ones and then these would be brazed in. Fuel guns are gravity fed but if there is not enough air being fed into the rear of the gun (this replaces the fuel that goes into the tank) a vacuum can form slowing the fuel flow. I've played with Collari's in the past and at that time his was modified to have seven small diameter vent tubes. It was really, really fast.
Mike thanks for the response and clarification. This makes a little more sense, in your post on the other thread you said that there was the same amount of oil's left which is why I questioned the results. Regarding the oil content that you mentioned in your post this should be easily attainable using the Klotz that they use. From my testing with their oil it is possible to run a minimum of 8% oil using a combination of their synthetic and castor oil without resulting in what I would consider unacceptable levels of engine wear in the hands of a knowledgeable tuner. Unfortunately this is also the key words "knowledgeable tuner". I've tested oil packages that can be run without a problem down to 4% but how do you sell this? Way too much variation in skill levels amongst the "average tuner" and these are unfortunately the majority of the purchasers and the ones we have to make sure can safely use our products
On a side note I'm glad that you have used our products in the past and have liked them and appreciate the fact that the Torco guys make good products and take good care of the guys in AZ. However my questions/comments/statements have nothing to do with any of that nor Torco's product specifically (with the exception of the question directly related the evaporation results from your test). For some reason everyone here in the US and on our forums specifically seem to be so hyper sensitive about having simple discussions/information exchanges. They (talking in general here not specifically about you) always seem to believe that simply because some one states something that might not necisarrely jibe with their expectations/thoughts on a product, is counter intuitive or whatever that they are "bashing a product".
It's really kind of sad and unfortunately one of the reasons that you do not find a lot of business owners or decision makers posting on forums other than to maybe just quickly pump their products for a second. Most of us avoid these places like the plague simply because it always seems to turn into some type of bash fest instead of an intelligent discussion/debate. Unfortunately the only ones that end up loosing out because of this are the users. Frankly and I do not like saying this but here in the US we have some of the best drivers in the world but also some of the least technologically savvy hobbyists.
I'm a naturally curious person and started my business partially because I questioned why things had to be done a certain way. This questioning resulted in us developing the first 5 port .12's with Picco because why does a .12 only have to have 3 ports? The creation of the outlaw touring class for sedan, because why cant there be 1/10th lola's and all of the parts to make a faster touring car? Making the first .30 and .32 dedicated car engines (not helicopter motors), because you cant beat more displacement! Producing the first stock engine with a lightened cooling head, because why should customers have to buy an expensive motor and then have to buy and aftermarket cooling head too? Creating one of the few true competition level fuel that the average driver can buy at the time, because why should we sell one fuel and then have our team drivers use a completely different version that we don't sell? Etc. etc. etc. This is where innovation comes from. Heck look at Losi, why do all 1/8th scale cars have to look alike? resulted in the Eight! Ok, just noticed how long this got....getting off my soap box now lol!!!
Pimp_9000. In a nutshell you want to either increase the size of the brass vent tubes (using larger diameter tuber) or increase the amount of them using a larger amount (more) of the smaller diameter tubes. The old ones would need to be removed and the gun modified to accept the new ones and then these would be brazed in. Fuel guns are gravity fed but if there is not enough air being fed into the rear of the gun (this replaces the fuel that goes into the tank) a vacuum can form slowing the fuel flow. I've played with Collari's in the past and at that time his was modified to have seven small diameter vent tubes. It was really, really fast.
Mike thanks for the response and clarification. This makes a little more sense, in your post on the other thread you said that there was the same amount of oil's left which is why I questioned the results. Regarding the oil content that you mentioned in your post this should be easily attainable using the Klotz that they use. From my testing with their oil it is possible to run a minimum of 8% oil using a combination of their synthetic and castor oil without resulting in what I would consider unacceptable levels of engine wear in the hands of a knowledgeable tuner. Unfortunately this is also the key words "knowledgeable tuner". I've tested oil packages that can be run without a problem down to 4% but how do you sell this? Way too much variation in skill levels amongst the "average tuner" and these are unfortunately the majority of the purchasers and the ones we have to make sure can safely use our products
On a side note I'm glad that you have used our products in the past and have liked them and appreciate the fact that the Torco guys make good products and take good care of the guys in AZ. However my questions/comments/statements have nothing to do with any of that nor Torco's product specifically (with the exception of the question directly related the evaporation results from your test). For some reason everyone here in the US and on our forums specifically seem to be so hyper sensitive about having simple discussions/information exchanges. They (talking in general here not specifically about you) always seem to believe that simply because some one states something that might not necisarrely jibe with their expectations/thoughts on a product, is counter intuitive or whatever that they are "bashing a product".
It's really kind of sad and unfortunately one of the reasons that you do not find a lot of business owners or decision makers posting on forums other than to maybe just quickly pump their products for a second. Most of us avoid these places like the plague simply because it always seems to turn into some type of bash fest instead of an intelligent discussion/debate. Unfortunately the only ones that end up loosing out because of this are the users. Frankly and I do not like saying this but here in the US we have some of the best drivers in the world but also some of the least technologically savvy hobbyists.
I'm a naturally curious person and started my business partially because I questioned why things had to be done a certain way. This questioning resulted in us developing the first 5 port .12's with Picco because why does a .12 only have to have 3 ports? The creation of the outlaw touring class for sedan, because why cant there be 1/10th lola's and all of the parts to make a faster touring car? Making the first .30 and .32 dedicated car engines (not helicopter motors), because you cant beat more displacement! Producing the first stock engine with a lightened cooling head, because why should customers have to buy an expensive motor and then have to buy and aftermarket cooling head too? Creating one of the few true competition level fuel that the average driver can buy at the time, because why should we sell one fuel and then have our team drivers use a completely different version that we don't sell? Etc. etc. etc. This is where innovation comes from. Heck look at Losi, why do all 1/8th scale cars have to look alike? resulted in the Eight! Ok, just noticed how long this got....getting off my soap box now lol!!!
BTW, his name is Marcus, not Mike.
06-15-2009, 08:57 PM
#60
oil
As for oil I read every thing lol. www.go-cl.se/castor.html the same applies today Works makes great stuff I have never had a problem with them and I might get another 3port Werks motor soon.